briannamurawski
New Member
Yes I will start trying that! Thank you all for your advice I will update you soon
Doberman Aggresion
- Thread starter briannamurawski
- Start date
Kaiser2016
Well-Known Member
The furniture is a good point. We never let Kaiser up on furniture because the “power” seemed to go to his head 
and that was around age 4. Now at 7.5 years old I let him up on one sofa and made it obvious it was his sofa and he loves it, but he absolutely tries to take over the other sofas too when we’re not watching.
and that was around age 4. Now at 7.5 years old I let him up on one sofa and made it obvious it was his sofa and he loves it, but he absolutely tries to take over the other sofas too when we’re not watching.
DracoDobie
Notable member
Welcome from Spain! 
Whatever you do, do NOT let him behave that way towards you, you've got to show him that growling or using his teeth on you is NOT okay.
Make sure to never step back, act scared, or give him space whenever he does that, as you'll be reinforcing the behaviour.
Stand your ground, correct him if needed, and let him know that's not acceptable.
I don't like positive only trainers for this breed, they are tough, intelligent, and can be absurdly stubborn. They THRIVE on strong leadership.
I would do the same things the rest have mentioned, I would try to make the crate a fun place, not the place where all fun stops. Feed him inside his crate, put him inside for a short period of time, and after you let him back out fuss him.
He's going through the terrible Doberteens, just keep training, don't let him bully you, show him the pack order, and you'll be fine!.
Hang in there!! It does get easier, keep us updated please
.
Whatever you do, do NOT let him behave that way towards you, you've got to show him that growling or using his teeth on you is NOT okay.
Make sure to never step back, act scared, or give him space whenever he does that, as you'll be reinforcing the behaviour.
Stand your ground, correct him if needed, and let him know that's not acceptable.
I don't like positive only trainers for this breed, they are tough, intelligent, and can be absurdly stubborn. They THRIVE on strong leadership.
I would do the same things the rest have mentioned, I would try to make the crate a fun place, not the place where all fun stops. Feed him inside his crate, put him inside for a short period of time, and after you let him back out fuss him.
He's going through the terrible Doberteens, just keep training, don't let him bully you, show him the pack order, and you'll be fine!.
Hang in there!! It does get easier, keep us updated please
.Tabasco2021
New Member
I would fire any trainer who still uses this alpha roll method. It is long outdated, ineffective and shunned by many professional trainers who understand canine cognition and body language. Cooperation, motivation and trust OVER fear, force and compliance. Your goal should not be to make any dog submit, but find how you can motivate him to want the same thing that you want. You don’t need to dominate anyone. So my intact 2yr old male will growl at my boyfriend if he grabs the stomach or anywhere in a way that the dog doesn’t like, whereas I, smaller female, can do just about anything I want because of trust. My dog doesn’t ‘respect’ the male human of the house more, and there is no concept dominance or alpha there. It’s just that I have a stronger, more trusting relationship with my dog so he allows me to physically handle him in places that he wouldn't with my boyfriend, and he listens to me only because it is I who reinforced the desired behaviors a thousand times.
Do not correct growling. If you ignore the body language signals, the dog will escalate in order to get the message across. Try to understand why he growls and why he feels the need to express himself that way. Correcting can lead to your dog skipping the warning signs and go straight into a bite.
I have to disagree with your Ladder being "aggression". This is a perfect illustration of a fearful dog in self defense or a dog that is uncomfortable and wanting you to back off. A truly aggressive dog skips the first 7 steps. Those first 7 steps are what you see when, for example, a child is hugging a dog that doesn't want to be hugged or a dog at the shelter who has been picked up off the street and is terrified of its new surroundings, or just a weak nerved dog.
The OP described asking her puppy to get in the crate and it starts at level 9, this needs to be either corrected or the dog gets bolder.
DracoDobie
Notable member
I heavily agree with you, there's a huge difference between a fearful or uncomfortable dog being aggressive, and a truly aggressive dog.
Dog's like OP's will 100% skip that ladder and will give little to NO warning, and will get you before you know it. This dog isn't driven by fear at all.
It must be corrected before it escalates EVEN more, or it'll get worse.
OP if you have instagram, I HEAVILY suggest you follow @story_of_atlas
They have dealt with HUGE aggression issues towards humans, dogs, and guarding everything and anything, even air. They are currently working on crate aggression, so I think it'll be very helpful!
It's safe to say, Atlas hasn't shown any aggression towards his owners never again, and it was actually a positive only trainer that made it all worse. Atlas was only 8 months old, when he sent his owners to the hospital due to a bite. That "trainer" just kept telling them to leave him alone, never suggested correcting him or showing him there were other ways to react. He wouldn't use that ladder, he would skip all of the steps and BITE. I would definitely give it a chance!!.
Tabasco2021
New Member
The thing is… how do we know that the dog skipped all those steps and went straight to level 9? He very well may have displayed all the signals and they went ignored, and now goes straight to 9 to get his message across. Most humans do not notice or catch those behaviors until it gets to the growling stage. I would highly bet that the puppy has learned to growl because earlier body signals were ignored.
Tabasco2021
New Member
There was no trained behaviourist on site to observe those incidents, so we are going off of OP’s laymen observations as ‘truth’ which I wouldn’t count on unless she was trained to notice the subtle signals and warnings. IF the puppy is skipping them, I would bet money that he felt the need to escalate to a growl because the earlier subtler signals were ignored previously.
Two Dobes
Hot Topics Subscriber
To me it sounds like typical young doberman behavior....pushing! They DO need boundries, and will take complete control if you allow it. This does not mean he is being aggresive; he is just trying to 'run the show' - it's what they do
. I have posted my experience years ago with a pure postive trainer, with a dobe I had that was reactive to other dogs. I had to COMPLETELY start over, and went to another trainer....once I learned timing of corrections, he became a better balanced dog. With the positive trainer, it was reinforcing his outbursts to get other dogs to back off, instead of having to tolerate them. I think postive works in many situations; but not all.
. I have posted my experience years ago with a pure postive trainer, with a dobe I had that was reactive to other dogs. I had to COMPLETELY start over, and went to another trainer....once I learned timing of corrections, he became a better balanced dog. With the positive trainer, it was reinforcing his outbursts to get other dogs to back off, instead of having to tolerate them. I think postive works in many situations; but not all.Tabasco2021
New Member
There are definitely bad R+ trainers no doubt, and I don’t subscribe to R+ only either. This is not a FF vs B debate. My comment is only referring to the growling at the humans from not wanting to go in his crate but being physically punished for it. I’ve seen MANY cases of dogs who have learned to go straight into bites because previously, their warning signs (all 9 stages including growling) were ignored and heavily corrected. There a high chance of fallout and relationship damage going down this route. The alpha rolling is absolute garbage anyway so that trainer should be fired regardless.
100%! I'd never had a Doberman like Asha and between a PP trainer and trying what worked fine with my other two Dobermans all I was doing was reinforcing Ashas desire to be in charge. She never growled or tried to bite me, it was a different problem (explosive reactions at other people & dogs) but still the same - no meaningful boundaries and she would totally blow me off.To me it sounds like typical young doberman behavior....pushing! They DO need boundries, and will take complete control if you allow it. This does not mean he is being aggresive; he is just trying to 'run the show' - it's what they do
I also think you're right in the description of Aggressive. That word means 100 different things to whoever calls a dog aggressive, so it's good to name the behavior you're seeing.
briannamurawski
New Member
Bruce never showed any signs, not head turning, not body turning, not sitting, lying down, nothing. He just growled, snapped and lunged. I would have noticed the signs and he did not show any.
Kswoodssue
Hot Topics Subscriber
We have been crazy busy, and I just read through this. If I have learned anything owning a Doberman, after a 66 year lifetime of other dog breeds, it is that Dobermans are just different. They are tough, and sensitive, and crazy smart. They are wired differently and must be handled differently. Folks here know this. Listen to them. Hope things are going better.
briannamurawski
New Member
Yes! My husband and I started the crate training over, we put his food in his cage, we close it for a few mins throughout the day , just all the things to show him the crate is not the end of his freedom, and he did really good the first week, he still growled and barked but it was not to the extent of what it used to be (which is progress). these past few days have been tough it seems like he forgot everything, I think that is just him being stubborn. I have been trying to put my foot down more and some days he's really good with boundaries and other days he forgets they even exist. I think at this point he is just a work in progress.
Yes, especially at that age he thinks he can own the world. Keep up the good work. If you give an inch, he'll take a mile.
Two Dobes
Hot Topics Subscriber
You will read the word "Consistency" on this forum when it comes to raising a Doberman. Sounds as though you are seeing progress! Don't let the less successful moments discourage you. He needs to understand the 'new' rules, and will continue to try and push past them, but will comply when he sees consistency throughout your behavior. The work will be worth it, when you have a beautiful well mannered adult. You can do this! 
DracoDobie
Notable member
Good job! Keep on trying to put your foot down EVEN more.
Like everyone said, CONSISTENCY, keep on reinforcing your boundaries, show and teach him what behaviours are expected from him, don't let him fool you; some days will be amazing, and others you'll feel like you took 5 steps back, progress isn't linear.
Just keep on working with him, Dobermanns are wired different, I agree!.
Cferg
Notable member
I was going to bring this up before. But since you’re doing a reset on the crate training I’ll bring it up now.
Your dogs aggression towards the crate could be coming from a lack of consistency and miscommunication. Making the dog confused and insecure/scared on exactly what you want from him. Which leads the dog to be hesitant on what to do next and then add your frustration as an owner. I mean put your self in his position. You go to grab him by the collar. He’s already scared and confused. And boom you have a dog that will bite you.
Ask my wife about this haha. She learned real quick to keep her emotions in check. And use the obedience and communication we’ve established with Stassi.
Your dogs aggression towards the crate could be coming from a lack of consistency and miscommunication. Making the dog confused and insecure/scared on exactly what you want from him. Which leads the dog to be hesitant on what to do next and then add your frustration as an owner. I mean put your self in his position. You go to grab him by the collar. He’s already scared and confused. And boom you have a dog that will bite you.
Ask my wife about this haha. She learned real quick to keep her emotions in check. And use the obedience and communication we’ve established with Stassi.
