White dobermans

The study done by the DPCA was did 30 YEARS AGO. Unless someone has did one recently that hasn't been made public. Why can't the anti-white people realize that science and medicine has improved so much that a new study should be preformed on dogs from conscientious breeders. The original two "albinos" used were from a puppy mill and in the study case they say themselves they were not kept in good condition. How can you test temperament, etc. on dogs that have been kept in buildings with no windows, have had no socialization and where probably the result of heavy inbreeding.
There was even an attempt by many white owners and breeders to have the DPCA allow for the white Doberman to become its own breed, but that was denied. We were wanting to be completely separate from the Dobermans, not a variety but a new breed (not like how the Cocker spaniel is seperated by color but more like Schanuzers; you have Miniature, Standard and Giant. They are all the same breed basically but they are different). That way we could have our own club, standard, etc.

LizM I hate that you are going to leave the forum because someone has a differing opinion from yours.
 
Without the facts to back-up her beliefs, I don't think she has much left to say anyway. 30 years ago I'm sure none thought they would ever see a black President either, so give her time, she'll eventually 'wake-up'. Might take her a few years, but that's okay.... it's worth the wait. We'll still welcome her when the day comes that DPCA has a white breeder president elect :)
 
Firstly Liz M, I would ask you to please reconsider your leaving the Forum. Your Input is both welcome and well thought out and backed up with facts, In other words your opinions are valued here as much as the next persons. I understand this is a controversial subject. With that being said we are all very passionate in our beliefs.

I would ask you to re read Zeus19742008 Original post and please understand that i dont believe this thread has gotton off topic. While i have already stated my position on the second post of this thread. Also please reread DLS's post up the page a bit. I firmly believe nobody here has done anything they werent asked to do regarding this thread.

Secondly Thie Discussion Board dosent Endorse Either Albinos Or Z factored Breeding. What it does do is reconize differances of opinions and give both sides the opportunitys to freely express these views without reprocussion or fear of personal attacks. I may have to re read this entire thread to make sure this hasnt happened but upon my initial read this rule has not yet been broken although i do feel a couple of people are walking on that thin line.

Lizz if you or anybody else here feels that this rule has been broken i ask that you PM me with your concerns and we can discuss this matter together an go from there.
 
I would also like to remind everyone, That all opinions are welcome.And a good debate is even encourged. But please remember personal attacks are absolutely unacceptable. And we also might want to consider leaving the issue of race out of this thread altogether.
 
Thank you VonDoom for being an open minded moderator. I know on some forums this discussion would be locked and the moderator would pick sides.

While I do feel I was personally attacked by LizM I don't feel the need to private message you and tattle. We are all adults here and as an adult I can take her attacks. I've developed a tough skin guess you could say.

As for the comparison to Obama I think it kind of holds water...My point with that reference was that 30 years ago nobody probably ever thought American would vote in a black president. Heck I'm African American and I never seen it coming so I do hold out hope that maybe 5, maybe 10 heck maybe 30 years from now the white Doberman will be accepted as a legit color and be able to be shown toward AKC Am Championships.

We gotta Keep Hope Alive!
 
Am I correct in saying the first documented Albino Dob was born in 1976 to normal colored parents? Or do any of you know of one before that time.
 
You are correct.

In the mid 1970's, there occurred a spontaneous MUTATION in a litter sired by RASPUTIN VI and the dam DYNAMO HUMM---this was a "WHITE APPEARING" female that was eventually registered by the AKC as a "white", named PADULA'S QUEEN SHEBA. Sheba was the first "Albino" Doberman ever registered by the AKC. Testing on Sheba's hair and test breedings with Sheba's offspring have proven that she is "A TYROSINE POSITIVE ALBINO" and NOT WHITE at all. She was erroneously registered by the AKC as such.
 
Here's my take: some are pretty, some are doing well in performance events. I wouldn't hesitate adopting one from a rescue organization or shelter.

But they should not be bred. IMO there is no such thing as a well bred albino dobe - the very concept is just plain backwards.


JMHO.
 
While I understand why many like the white/albino Dobermans, I do myself but don't see the need to breed a dog with health issues, light sensitivity, possible temperament issues etc. Why not think of what the dog has to live with? On top of that there are not enough healthy examples of white/albino to even properly breed them as a separate breed as someone here suggested and they aren't a separate breed, as well to expand that gene pool you would have to use Dobermans, so that mucks with them being a separate breed, when they would technically be the same breed.

I am going to guess there have been many other studies and reputable breeders who know their genetics can easily provide good reason not to include z factored dogs into one's breeding program, a study done 30 years ago could be just as valid today, as the breed really hasn't changed much.

For those insisting on breeding white/albino fine go for it but please at least ensure they are sold on a spay/neuter contract as breeding should be done by professionals who know what they are doing not your average joe, heck I have been involved with dogs my entire life and I wouldn't even dare breed a litter, I know nothing about breeding. Give me a screwed up dog, I can fix it but breeding is for those who have studied genetics, lines, things that really don't float my boat.
 
For those insisting on breeding white/albino fine go for it but please at least ensure they are sold on a spay/neuter contract as breeding should be done by professionals who know what they are doing not your average joe, heck I have been involved with dogs my entire life and I wouldn't even dare breed a litter, I know nothing about breeding. Give me a screwed up dog, I can fix it but breeding is for those who have studied genetics, lines, things that really don't float my boat.

Very well said.
 
For those insisting on breeding white/albino fine go for it but please at least ensure they are sold on a spay/neuter contract as breeding should be done by professionals who know what they are doing not your average joe, heck I have been involved with dogs my entire life and I wouldn't even dare breed a litter, I know nothing about breeding. Give me a screwed up dog, I can fix it but breeding is for those who have studied genetics, lines, things that really don't float my boat.

But anyone breeding albinos in the first place is not a "professional", responsible breeder who knows what they're doing... IMO. If someone wants an albino, check out rescue - there quite common there.
 
OK I will reword it... Anyone insisting on breeding ablino's should BEHAVE as a professional breeder does etc.....

Better yet do pediatric spay and neuters on albino or Z factored pups prior to sale.
 
I have never owned a white.....I have heard all the tales....good and bad.

I do have a almost all white JRT. she is 100% deaf.....from what I read online it is caused by the white gene? not alowing the ear to form right? dont get me word for word.......but I am wondering if white dobermans are born deaf more often the the other colors?
 
Okay. I am going to wade in a little neutral here.
First I must say that in nature most truly albino animals are deaf and often have problems. This is not to say that white shepherds with selective breeding have not managed to correct many health issues and that the white shepherd is not the same as having a true albino pup born in your litter. (For one thing they now have pigmaent and are not albino...)
The white doberman today looks much improved over the original few whites that we saw originally. If a breeder is testing their stock for vWd, hips, eyes, cardio...should they not have a right to breed the dogs just like any other owner? Everyone has their own morals on what is right and what is wrong when it comes to breeding but if no cruelty is involved then they have the right to choose whether or not to breed their animal.
Having said this I must say that in all the years and litters and bloodlines of dobermans from all over the world that Kimbertal has owned, it seems strange that we have never in all these litters had a white doberman puppy. Back when the first white dobermans were registered the rumor was that the AKC could not 100% say if they were purebreds or not so they denoted the dogs with a Z. The original breeder was said to have also bred greyhounds... The first whites were not albinos being bred to eliminate defects but almost an all white or very very pale fawn so it makes the greyhound theory plausible. The current whites look much more like dobermans.
That said, most whites have at least seven generations from the original dogs so they would now breed pure anyway. I think it should be left up to individual preference and not made an issue of as strongly as we tend to do.
We do not breed to whites nor have any in our bloodlines but it does make an extreme kneejerk reaction in many breeders. It is a shame we can not admire without condeming or promoting these animals. I too would say that although I personally would not breed one, if I were looking for a new adoptee I would not hestitate in taking a white doberman. Anne
But anyone breeding albinos in the first place is not a "professional", responsible breeder who knows what they're doing... IMO. If someone wants an albino, check out rescue - there quite common there.
 
I have read a lot about the albino's but can't tell you either way...
The AKC will reg them but the DPCA will not. The can be involved in agility and others just can not be shown (as it is a disqual)

I can however see how skin and eye problems may arrise. This is going to sound odd so bear with me..... I have a patch of vitaligo on my right arm which is basically a spot that has NO PIGMENT!!! This "spot" sunburns VERY easily and is tender to the touch if it has been exposed to high sun... Repeated "burn" can cause cancer, so knowing that I do believe that they would have skin problems. Some worse then others of coarse and some maybe not at all.

However I recently saw an albino female on a rescue site and wanted nothing more than to bring her home. Skin issues or not, If they were mine I would do anything for her just as I would mine. ((""SKIN COLOR DOESNT MATTER TO ME"")) ;)

I think that each dog is different and we really shouldnt judge temperment by color. Again, I dont know first hand ( I can not state that enough )

I would def NOT BREED an Albino but would love one all the same if it came down to it.
 
I agree. I would never breed or buy one... But if one was in need and I could take it in... I would.. Probly more so because I would be worried it would fall in the hands of someone who would be greedy and not responsible
 
Passionate controversies have raged over the albino or " white " Doberman pinscher ever since the first albino Doberman was born, in 1976. Over the course of these arguments, huge mountains of misinformation have been thrown in both directions. This site is intended to provide accurate information about albinism in general, and about albino Dobermans in particular. Don't live in ignorance -- learn the facts!

http://whitedobes.doberinfo.com/textframe1.html

How is the albino trait inherited in Dobermans?

Breeding studies, as well as nearly 30 years' worth of litters produced by private breeders, have established the pattern of inheritance of the albino trait in Dobermans. To understand this issue, let's take a look at Doberman color inheritance in general.

In the United States, there are four accepted colors in the Doberman breed. These are black, red (also referred to as brown), blue, and fawn (also referred to as Isabella). In the Doberman breed there are only two sets of genes which interact to produce these colors -- the "B" series, and the "D" series. Each of these gene "series" contains two alleles (variants) in the Doberman breed; the "dominant" allele is referred to with a capital letter, while the "recessive" allele is referred to with a lower-case letter. Dominant alleles always "dominate", or hide, the effects of recessive alleles in the same gene series. So we have B, b, D, and d. B produces black, b produces red (brown), D produces full pigment (non-dilute), and d produces dilute pigment.

Now, each dog carries two copies of the B series of genes and two copies of the D series of genes, and the dominant allele will always cover the effect of the recessive allele. So a black dog can be either BB or Bb, but a red dog must be bb. Similarly, a dog with non-dilute pigment can be either DD or Dd, but a dog with dilute pigment must be dd. Blue dogs are the dilute form of black, and fawn dogs are the dilute form of red.

So here's what we're left with --

Black dogs can be BBDD, BbDD, BBDd, or BbDd
Red dogs can be bbDD, or bbDd
Blue dogs can be BBdd or Bbdd
Fawn dogs can ONLY be bbdd

Now, what does this have to do with albinos?

As reported in the September 1984 Pipeline (the official publication of the DPCA), an albino to fawn breeding (not sponsored by the DPCA) produced all black puppies. Remember, the fawn parent MUST be bbdd -- it has NO copies of the dominant black gene, and NO copies of the dominant non-dilute gene. Since the fawn dog produced black puppies, both the black gene and the non-dilute gene MUST have been contributed by the albino parent. In addition, other breedings have proved that an albino dog bred to any colored dog which does not carry the albino trait will produce all colored puppies. Therefore, the albino trait is not dominant to either the black or dilution traits. This means that a dog must carry two copies of the albino gene in order to hide the other color traits.

These breedings prove that the albino trait is not in the same gene series as either the black trait or the dilution trait. The albino trait must therefore be inherited at a separate site. Further, the albino/fawn breeding also proves that the albino trait in Dobermans is "epistatic" -- which means that it covers or "masks" the effect of both the black and dilution traits when the dog has two copies of the albino gene. The albino involved in the albino/fawn breeding had both the dominant black and the dominant non-dilution trait, so it would have been a black dog if there had been no albino genes present. Since it did have two copies of the albino gene, both the black and non-dilution genes were "masked" or "hidden". That's why the albino gene is often referred to as a "masking gene".

The albino series of genes is classically referred to as "C". Although we now know that defects in several different genes can produce albinism (for example, the most common type of human albinism in the world is caused by a mutation in the P gene), for our purposes here we will refer to the gene as "C" for simplicity's sake. Further breedings have proved that the albino variant in dobermans is inherited as a simple recessive trait. Therefore, all albino dogs must carry two copies of the recessive gene, cc in order to appear albinistic. Normally colored dogs can be either CC or Cc. Dogs who are Cc can be any of the accepted colors, and there is currently no test (except for test breedings) which will detect the albino gene being carried by these dogs. Therefore, beginning in 1996, all dogs who are descended from albinos carry special registration numbers -- "z" numbers -- to warn breeders that these dogs may be carrying the albinistic trait.

http://whitedobes.doberinfo.com/textframe2.html#albinoinheritance

Hope this helps ;)
 
Why does the DPCA reject the Albino?

We know that these dogs are photophobic, (sensitive to sun light). They have vision problems resulting from abnormal development of the retina.

They are prone to skin cancer and skin lesions. Due to the lack of pigment, they are extremely susceptible to skin damage from the sun.

Poor temperament is a significant concern. Due to the intense inbreeding to obtain the mutation, the temperaments on a great many are totally unstable. These problems range from fear biting to outright vicious attacks. Shyness is prevalent. Most are not suitable for homes with small children. Yes, there are exceptions, but hardly enough to make them acceptable to most families.

In addition to the above problems concerning health and temperament, these dogs have a total lack of breed type.

There is dialog currently between the DPCA and the American Kennel Club to impose a breeding restriction on the Albinos. They would still be registered, but would have the same restrictions as an ILP registered dog. Owners would not be allowed to register any progeny of the Albinos.

While negotiations continue, the DPCA is utilizing a tracking system, call The "Z" List. This tracking system identifies any dogs that may carry this mutant gene. It enables ethical breeders to avoid breeding to animals with the defect.

While we can understand the attachment one can have for animals of all colors, sizes, shapes and pedigreed or not, we must realize that the Doberman Pinscher was a breed created for a purpose.

A standard of excellence was drawn up describing what the ideal Doberman should look like, how it should act, and what colors it should be. Albino cannot be classified as a color. It is just the opposite. It is the lack of color.

No recognized standard would call for a dog that is Albinoid. It is a genetic defect in all creatures.

http://www.dpca.org/albinoinfo1.html
 
We all know life is black, white, and gray in the middle. I won't buy or breed in the middle gray of life, that's my choice. But I'm not gonna judge what people do with love and responsibility in the middle gray of life (or albino).
It's the things people do on the bad side I worry about.
-Come to think of it, I won't breed at all. I don't have the knowledge this breed deserves to do that.
Just my two cents.
Enjoy your babies.
 
I totally agree with Anne on this one. As for the "sunburn" issue - that really isn't an issue. I had Paint horses and their noses sun burned - quite a few animals sun burn - and I don't really think that is a plausible reason for not breeding. The one horse had a blue eye and a partial blue - I don't recall him overly squinting either. Skin conditions, heart, any health condition should be the only determining factor for breeding or not breeding - not color.

This controversy has contaminated just about every breed. The White German Shepherds for one - the "Pie" in Fila's....
 

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