From what I have seen in news stories it's "packs" of them. Especially in the low income areas.
When do anti-tethering ordinances/laws go too far?
- Thread starter Regalis
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Or build a fence.
Interesting! I dont watch the news so I do claim ignorance on my part.
Rits
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I can see the argument on both sides. I'm more on the side that if it doesn't effect you, and the dog isn't being 100% ignored, has appropriate water shelter etc, it shouldn't be your worry. People feel similar with prongs and ecollars, because they don't like it, they think no one else should be able to use them.
One situation I can think of is a double coated dog in the winter. Humans have the heat on inside, the dog desperately wants to go outside to their shelter and lay where it's cold. Cold to us...but not to them. Fences cost a lot of money, especially an adequate sized space. Dogs can jump fences and fence jumpers are hard to break of their habit. Think counter surfer but worse. I see nothing wrong with allowing a dog in this situation to be on a tether. In fact, I would consider it abuse to force the dog to stay inside where they are panting.
Me personally? If I had a cold climate breed, I'd either keep it cooler inside or build a kennel with a doggy door to inside the garage/outside so that my dog could determine what comfort zone they wanted. Again, that's what works for me but not everyone has the luxury of being able to do that. What works for me doesn't work for everyone. I'd rather see a dog be responsibly contained and have a home vs roaming or in the shelter.
And yes, you cannot cannot train dog aggression brought on by genetics out of a dog. You can manage it. Dog aggression brought on by poor training can be trained out. Certain lines of apbt are true to their breed from the fighting days (not that long ago). Dog aggression IS to apbt as herding sheep is to a collie, protecting master is to Dobermans, etc. You can manage it, you can train to keep the qualities you like, you can get dogs that have watered down traits in any breed... But you cannot 100% eradicate temperaments brought on by genetics. Ex: well my pitbull isn't like that. Yes many aren't, as people are breeding away from it. Just like not all dobermans are natural protectors because some (whether intentionally or not) are breeding away from it. It's called watered down.
One situation I can think of is a double coated dog in the winter. Humans have the heat on inside, the dog desperately wants to go outside to their shelter and lay where it's cold. Cold to us...but not to them. Fences cost a lot of money, especially an adequate sized space. Dogs can jump fences and fence jumpers are hard to break of their habit. Think counter surfer but worse. I see nothing wrong with allowing a dog in this situation to be on a tether. In fact, I would consider it abuse to force the dog to stay inside where they are panting.
Me personally? If I had a cold climate breed, I'd either keep it cooler inside or build a kennel with a doggy door to inside the garage/outside so that my dog could determine what comfort zone they wanted. Again, that's what works for me but not everyone has the luxury of being able to do that. What works for me doesn't work for everyone. I'd rather see a dog be responsibly contained and have a home vs roaming or in the shelter.
And yes, you cannot cannot train dog aggression brought on by genetics out of a dog. You can manage it. Dog aggression brought on by poor training can be trained out. Certain lines of apbt are true to their breed from the fighting days (not that long ago). Dog aggression IS to apbt as herding sheep is to a collie, protecting master is to Dobermans, etc. You can manage it, you can train to keep the qualities you like, you can get dogs that have watered down traits in any breed... But you cannot 100% eradicate temperaments brought on by genetics. Ex: well my pitbull isn't like that. Yes many aren't, as people are breeding away from it. Just like not all dobermans are natural protectors because some (whether intentionally or not) are breeding away from it. It's called watered down.
Regalis
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Yes, I used an overhead pully system. My yard stayed mostly shaded over the course of the day due to trees and buildings around the perimeter (made gardening impossible). I guess you'd have to see it to understand?
Ive never had much issue with my dogs getting tangled. They knew to avoid the one tree they could possibly get tangled on and the lab even learned to untangle himself.
Just because they weren't euthanized, doesn't mean they were rehabbed. Why do you think many of them are living their lives out in a sanctuary? It's not because of their charming personality....
Some huskies can be trusted off lead. There are ALWAYS exceptions. But on average, they are not reliable off lead. You can research this if you don't believe me. It's one of the big things that was stressed to me by the breeder.
So let me see if I understand this properly - you seem to think you can basically train a dog to be whatever you want (whether you realize it or not, that is what you are saying)? Drogon is from working lines, correct? Why? Why did you seek out a working line Dobermann? Because you know genetics play a big role. You think those Rotts will protect. That's a tall order. Most dogs will flee instead of protect. That is WHY people go through the effort of seeking out proven working lines, that ability to defend is genetic and most dogs don't have it. Don't be fooled by the many dogs doing IPO. Almost any dog can be taught to play the game. Very few will excel at it, especially when it gets serious and is no longer a game. That's why so few dogs make it to the point of being true protection dogs. If dog fights were all about size, pitbulls wouldn't even be used. The best fighting dogs are usually pretty darn small. If it was just a matter of sheer size, they'd be using mastiffs or rotts. But they don't. Why do you think that is?
Lastly, yes, Detroit has a serious issue with loose dogs. There are literal packs of feral dogs living in the city.
I live quite a ways out of the city currently, I STILL run into loose dogs fairly often.
Dogs are not machines. They are living, thinking beings. No dog is %100 reliable %100 of the time. Don't believe me? Ask the people who believed their dog was, who ended up bolting that one time and getting killed by a car or never being found. Or just think of this statistic : 1 in 3 pets become displaced in their lifetime. That's a HUGE percentage. You know how many dogs I've networked that were well trained but for whatever reason bolted that one time? More than I care to even recall. Many of them ended very tragically.
Oh, and I'm not a pit hater either. And I never said that just because a dog is a pit (or mix) that they can't be good with other dogs. I'm guessing many of you have no real experience with fighting dogs. Unfortunately, doing rescue work in Detroit, I do. I've met (and owned) some AWESOME pitties. But they weren't from fighting lines. Just like not all dobes are from working lines, not all pits are from fighting lines. Dog fighting is HUGE here. It's still very alive and active. Detroit is known for developing it's own particular fighting lines that are sought after across the world. You know what happens to the ones that don't make the cut for fighting but are still way too gamey to be pet quality? They are dumped. Often times ending up in shelters. There's a reason we see SO many dog attacks in this area and the vast majority are pits. The fighters have learned that they are more likely to be caught if they kill them. So they just go drop them off somewhere or sell them for dirt cheap on the street corner. Research it for a few minutes. You'll be shocked, and horrified and disgusted by the number of dog attacks in and around the city. There are groups dedicated solely to caring for the packs of feral dogs. These dogs are so feral, they most often can not be caught or trapped. People have spent YEARS trying to gain trust. So yeah, maybe my perspective on loose dogs is different. The LAST thing you do here is allow your dog to get into a fight with a stray/loose dog. I don't care how big your dog is or how much of a badass it is. The stray pit is far more likely to win.
I also never said that all agreession can't be trained out. A lot of it can. But when it's driven by pure genetics, it cant. Most agreession is nurture (or lack thereof) based. Here again, maybe my perspective is unique. A LOT of strays end up euthanized around here, particularly those of the bully form. Because they are genetically aggressive. Even our local breed experts who train/rescue/rehab them have to have a dog euthanized from time to time. One of the most knowledgeable people I've ever encountered in terms of pits, the one who knows the local lines better than anyone, has had to put dogs down. He's given dogs a chance that no one else would go near. Some were able to be rehabbed. Some were not. And if HE can't rehab them, I really don't think anyone can.
So in my world, I'd much rather see dogs secured. Because I know most people don't train their dogs at all, let alone well enough to be off lead. Within reason, I really don't care how they are secured, as long as it keeps the public safe.
Ive never had much issue with my dogs getting tangled. They knew to avoid the one tree they could possibly get tangled on and the lab even learned to untangle himself.
Just because they weren't euthanized, doesn't mean they were rehabbed. Why do you think many of them are living their lives out in a sanctuary? It's not because of their charming personality....
Some huskies can be trusted off lead. There are ALWAYS exceptions. But on average, they are not reliable off lead. You can research this if you don't believe me. It's one of the big things that was stressed to me by the breeder.
So let me see if I understand this properly - you seem to think you can basically train a dog to be whatever you want (whether you realize it or not, that is what you are saying)? Drogon is from working lines, correct? Why? Why did you seek out a working line Dobermann? Because you know genetics play a big role. You think those Rotts will protect. That's a tall order. Most dogs will flee instead of protect. That is WHY people go through the effort of seeking out proven working lines, that ability to defend is genetic and most dogs don't have it. Don't be fooled by the many dogs doing IPO. Almost any dog can be taught to play the game. Very few will excel at it, especially when it gets serious and is no longer a game. That's why so few dogs make it to the point of being true protection dogs. If dog fights were all about size, pitbulls wouldn't even be used. The best fighting dogs are usually pretty darn small. If it was just a matter of sheer size, they'd be using mastiffs or rotts. But they don't. Why do you think that is?
Lastly, yes, Detroit has a serious issue with loose dogs. There are literal packs of feral dogs living in the city.
I live quite a ways out of the city currently, I STILL run into loose dogs fairly often.
Dogs are not machines. They are living, thinking beings. No dog is %100 reliable %100 of the time. Don't believe me? Ask the people who believed their dog was, who ended up bolting that one time and getting killed by a car or never being found. Or just think of this statistic : 1 in 3 pets become displaced in their lifetime. That's a HUGE percentage. You know how many dogs I've networked that were well trained but for whatever reason bolted that one time? More than I care to even recall. Many of them ended very tragically.
Oh, and I'm not a pit hater either. And I never said that just because a dog is a pit (or mix) that they can't be good with other dogs. I'm guessing many of you have no real experience with fighting dogs. Unfortunately, doing rescue work in Detroit, I do. I've met (and owned) some AWESOME pitties. But they weren't from fighting lines. Just like not all dobes are from working lines, not all pits are from fighting lines. Dog fighting is HUGE here. It's still very alive and active. Detroit is known for developing it's own particular fighting lines that are sought after across the world. You know what happens to the ones that don't make the cut for fighting but are still way too gamey to be pet quality? They are dumped. Often times ending up in shelters. There's a reason we see SO many dog attacks in this area and the vast majority are pits. The fighters have learned that they are more likely to be caught if they kill them. So they just go drop them off somewhere or sell them for dirt cheap on the street corner. Research it for a few minutes. You'll be shocked, and horrified and disgusted by the number of dog attacks in and around the city. There are groups dedicated solely to caring for the packs of feral dogs. These dogs are so feral, they most often can not be caught or trapped. People have spent YEARS trying to gain trust. So yeah, maybe my perspective on loose dogs is different. The LAST thing you do here is allow your dog to get into a fight with a stray/loose dog. I don't care how big your dog is or how much of a badass it is. The stray pit is far more likely to win.
I also never said that all agreession can't be trained out. A lot of it can. But when it's driven by pure genetics, it cant. Most agreession is nurture (or lack thereof) based. Here again, maybe my perspective is unique. A LOT of strays end up euthanized around here, particularly those of the bully form. Because they are genetically aggressive. Even our local breed experts who train/rescue/rehab them have to have a dog euthanized from time to time. One of the most knowledgeable people I've ever encountered in terms of pits, the one who knows the local lines better than anyone, has had to put dogs down. He's given dogs a chance that no one else would go near. Some were able to be rehabbed. Some were not. And if HE can't rehab them, I really don't think anyone can.
So in my world, I'd much rather see dogs secured. Because I know most people don't train their dogs at all, let alone well enough to be off lead. Within reason, I really don't care how they are secured, as long as it keeps the public safe.
Drogon
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I'm not sure where you read that many of them are living their lives in a sanctuary.
Read the book
The Lost Dogs: Michael Vick's Dogs and Their Tale of Rescue and Redemption
Regalis
Notable member
Of the 47 remaining dogs, 22 were sent to an animal sanctuary at the Best Friends Animal Society in Utah because of aggression toward other dogs.
Some of them will stay there for the rest of their lives. Because of their dog agreession issues. Really, this isn't that difficult to research.
Yes, some, many, the majority perhaps were able to be rehabbed. But not all. That's a cute tail people like to spin to make it sound better than it really is.
Some of them will stay there for the rest of their lives. Because of their dog agreession issues. Really, this isn't that difficult to research.
Yes, some, many, the majority perhaps were able to be rehabbed. But not all. That's a cute tail people like to spin to make it sound better than it really is.
Drogon
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No I don't think 'you can basically train a dog to be whatever you want' and that certainly isn't what I was saying. I'm saying aggression can be managed through training. The scenario you laid out was one dog attacking one (or both) of the Rots. Pack mentality would kick in and those Rots would gang up on the one dog. 'Dog fights' as in pit or ring fighting is one dog against one dog. In the US fighting dogs are usually Pits but in other countries they are not. There are many reasons why in a 1-on-1 dog fight a Pit is better suited but that is not the scenario you laid out.
I'll give a quick example. When Drogon used to go to the dog park there was a lady with 2 French bull dogs that weighed around 35lbs. When Drogon was rough playing with one, the other would run around behind him and try to bite his back legs. In a real fight, Drogon could have easily killed one of them but in the process one of his legs would likely have the tendon would have been severed leaving him lame. Given Drogon's size advantage he might still have been able to kill off the other one. Rots however wouldn't have that size disadvantage. The attacking dog in your scenario would be at a size disadvantage with just one of them. While it bites one Rot, the other would likely either bite it by the back of the neck or more likely run around to the rear and attack its legs.
Another example- One of my friends has a Pit and Drogon plays with it. They play rough and Drogon dominates the Pit up until the point where Drogon gets tired. The Pit never seems to get tired and will just keep coming after Drogon. That is one of the reasons they are used in dog fights.
I again encourage you to read the book. It goes through one by one where each of the dogs are now. Most have their GCG, some went on to become therapy dogs. If I remember correctly only 1 was euthanized after attempted rehabilitation. I don't remember any living out their lives in a sanctuary.
Drogon
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Your research seems to have ended in 2008. The dogs were seized in 2007. Yes in 2008 many were living in sanctuaries. However if you continue your research you can see exactly 'where they are now'
Regalis
Notable member
Dig deeper. Yes, some of them went on to live relatively normal doggy lives. But not ALL.
Progress Report: Only 3 Vick Dogs from Best Friends Adopted in 35 Months - DogsBite.org
"In October, a Best Friends Vick dog, named Tug, chewed through two dog runs at the facility and attacked two dogs. Tug tore the head off of one pit bull -- a non-Vick pit bull -- and attacked Denzel -- a favored Vick pit bull and critical fundraising tool. The latter survived the attack."
So tell me again that they can or were all "rehabbed". If THAT is rehabbed, I sure don't want one living next door to me.
Progress Report: Only 3 Vick Dogs from Best Friends Adopted in 35 Months - DogsBite.org
"In October, a Best Friends Vick dog, named Tug, chewed through two dog runs at the facility and attacked two dogs. Tug tore the head off of one pit bull -- a non-Vick pit bull -- and attacked Denzel -- a favored Vick pit bull and critical fundraising tool. The latter survived the attack."
So tell me again that they can or were all "rehabbed". If THAT is rehabbed, I sure don't want one living next door to me.
Drogon
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SUSSEX 2615: TUG (BEST FRIENDS)
A big (sixty-five-pound) exuberant lug, Tug earned his name honestly--when he's on a leash he loves to drag anyone holding on along for a ride. That little behavioral tick is far more welcome than the one he had upon arrival: compulsively licking his fence. The obsessive behavior was probably a result of kennel stress and as Tug wound down through a steady course of training, agility drills, and lots of exercise, the unwanted activity cured itself. Now he's simply a big, goofy dog, especially around people he knows and feels comfortable with. Unless they have a camera. He's deathly afraid of them. If any visitor is bold enough to enter his space and sit on the ground, Tug will run at them full speed, jump in the air, and land right in their lap.
For what it's worth, I do remember hearing several went to Utah, but I have no evidence to support it other than my foggy old memory?
Drogon
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Yes initially.For what it's worth, I do remember hearing several went to Utah, but I have no evidence to support it other than my foggy old memory?
Regalis
Notable member
This was last updated in November.
http://www.pblnn.com/news/features/324-the-michael-vick-dogs-from-bad-newz-to-good-life.html
Note the dogs still living there, or who died there.
http://www.pblnn.com/news/features/324-the-michael-vick-dogs-from-bad-newz-to-good-life.html
Note the dogs still living there, or who died there.
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