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When do anti-tethering ordinances/laws go too far?

Discussion in 'Canine News/Informative Articles' started by Regalis, Apr 25, 2017.

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  1. Regalis

    Regalis Notable member

    But yet, they say that and at the same time go on to talk about dogs with serious issues.

    Yes, SOME dogs can be rehabbed in those situations. Not every dog on the premises is a fighter. There are fighters, pets, breeders, bait dogs, etc. All very, very different from one another.

    If you really dig into it, what you will find is that only a portion of the dogs seized from Vick were true fighters. They are also the ones that were not, cannot be adopted out to the general public. The ones adopted were the bait dogs, the pets, some of the breeders. Huuuuge difference.


    Or better yet. Go work with fighting dogs. Spend time volunteering at a place that takes them on (which are few and far between, because even the best of the best in that world know the true fighters can never be adopted out to the general public, so they won't work with them). Fortunately, most of them are not human aggressive, which is the only reason some are able to atleast live out their days in a sanctuary (see dog jail).
     
  2. Drogon

    Drogon $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    I have. A&S rescue.
     
  3. Drogon

    Drogon $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    Any dog psychologist or behaviorist will tell you behavior is learned not inherited. Genetics gives the dog the ability but training gives them the behavior. I've trained with dogs from conformation lines and from working lines. A working line dog does not guarantee the dog will be an IPO (etc) dog and a show dog can be trained for IPO. 'Unlearning' takes much more time and dedication.
    This is far from the original topic to which my opinion has not changed. Even the Vick dogs that did not get adopted were not kept on tether.
     
  4. Regalis

    Regalis Notable member

    And they take in true fighting dogs? I don't mean strays they suspect came from fighting. But dogs that they somehow managed to convince a fighter to surrender (usually under the condition they won't be reported) that were actually used for fighting. Even here, where dog fighting is a big thing, very very few true fighting dogs ever make it into rescue. Fighters don't give them up or risk them getting loose. A good fighting dog is worth it's weight in gold to them. They will kill them before they let a rescue take them.

    Tons of rescues take in and deal with bullies. That's not the same thing. The last fighting dog I recall coming into a local rescue ended up having to be euthanized. He was insanely dog aggressive, killed a dog at the rescue (despite all the precautions) and had already attacked numerous people (which is likely why he even made it to rescue, a human aggressive fighter is no good).

    And no, any dog behaivorist won't tell you that. It's a combination of nature (genetics) and nurture (training). No, a working line dog does not guarantee a successful IPO dog. Never said it did. But it increases the chances drastically. Yes, some of the pups out of working lines will only be pet quality. That's just the reality of genetics. But the dog HAS to have the genetic make up to truly excel at IPO. Most can be taught the game. Few can take it past the game (actually biting humans out of a suit and taking them down).

    Think of it this way, most labs do not need to be trained to fetch. It's an instinctive genetic trait. Just as herders herd. It's harnessed and refined, yes. But it is far from a "learned" behaivor. At about 5 weeks, most labs will start to retrieve.

    Straight from Leerburg
    "Right from the beginning, everyone needs to understand that dogs inherit the drives for protection work. It is a genetic factor and neither a factor of training nor a factor of breed. In other words, if a dog does not have the genes for protection work you are not going to train the drives into the dog. Just because a dog is a German Shepherd does not mean that it can be trained in bite work. That would be like saying just because I have a horse I think it can run in the Kentucky Derby"


    No, they weren't tethered, they're kept in cages unless leashed. Which is appropriate given their issues.
     
  5. Regalis

    Regalis Notable member

    You're also contradicting yourself. A few posts back, you said you can't train a dog to do whatever you want. But now you're saying you can. So which is it?

    I'm not talking about learned agreession. I'm talking about genetic aggression. There is a difference.
     
  6. Drogon

    Drogon $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    No I'm still not saying you can train a dog to do whatever you want. I said genetics give the dog the ability and training gives them the behavior. There is a difference. A dog with genes for aggression can be trained not to be aggressive. Dogs without the 'warrior genes' can be trained to be aggressive.

    I think I'm done with this thread as you take it way to personally and it has gotten far from the original topic.
     
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  7. Regalis

    Regalis Notable member

    I'm actually not taking it personally.

    You brought up training. I'm disagreeing with your stance (and citing sources).

    Debate is healthy. It's how we learn.

    Yes, you can sometimes train a dog to be aggressive. But it won't be on the same level as a dog that has the genetic predisposition.

    For example, almost any dog will defend if forced to. Almost. Some wont. Those with the genetic predisposition don't have to be forced into it. Which makes it much much harder to manage. Most dogs will flee given a chance.

    This is why many a bullies are deemed only safe for one dog/no other animal homes. And these are dogs coming from top notch rescues.

    Back to same sex aggression for a minute. It's usually genetic. It can be managed. But not %100 trained away. That's why it's such a serious issue. And why many folks have come home to a dead dog(s). They may be ok a lot of the time, but not always. Certain breeds are genetically predisposed to it. Dobermans are. That's why it's almost always recommend to not get two males or two females. Yes, sometimes it is done successfully with no issue. As not every doberman is created the same. But if you buy from a line known to have same sex aggression, you can pretty much bet your dog will have it to. There are exceptions and always will be. But most people would agree it's safer to err on the side of caution.
     
  8. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    FWIW, I coincidentally ran across this info. regarding Cincinnati's tethering law that went into effect last October.

    Sec. 701-22. - Tethering Dogs.
    (a)

    No owner, keeper, or harborer shall allow a dog to be tethered:

    (1)

    For more than six hours in a twenty-four hour period;

    (2)

    Between the hours of 10 p.m. and 6 a.m.;

    (3)

    When no owner, keeper, or harborer of the dog is present on the premises; or

    (4)

    In any area where there is an accumulation of feces or other waste, insect infestation, rodent infestation, foul odor, or another unsanitary or dangerous condition within the radius of the tether.

    (b)

    No owner, keeper, or harborer of a dog shall use any of the following types of tethers for the dog:

    (1)

    A tether of less than ten feet in length, or less than four times the length of the dog's body from tip of nose to base of tail, whichever is greater;

    (2)

    A tether the length of which allows the dog to cross the property line of the property on which it is tethered;

    (3)

    A tether that causes injury or pain to the dog because of the material of which it is made or because of the size or weight of the tether; generally, a tether should not weigh more than one-eighth (1/8) of a dog's body weight.

    (c)

    No owner, keeper, or harborer of a dog shall tether the dog:

    (1)

    By attaching the tether to the dog by means of a choke chain collar, pinch collar, or prong collar, as the collars are defined by the Humane Society of the United States;

    (2)

    By attaching the tether to a collar that is not properly fitted;

    (3)

    In an area likely to cause injury or pain to the dog because of entanglement; or

    (4)

    In an area likely to cause injury or pain to the dog because of surrounding structures.

    (Ordained by Emer. Ord. No. 325-2016, § 1, eff. Oct. 12, 2016)
     
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  9. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Before we got our first Doberman and going through a list of 'which big dog should we choose' (we always had Poms and one GSD) huskies were in our radar. My older sister had a lot of knowledge about other large breeds and the first thing she said to me was don't get a husky. lol She said they are not family orientated and often will run the first chance they get. When she told me that the Doberman is a loyal family member, I was sold. So just saying I've often heard the same thing about huskies, then and since. No offense to husky owners!! But I love the loyalty of the Doberman.
    Totally agree with that. Come on, how can anyone not? 100% 100% of the time? Impossible. Too many variables. Hell, I'M not 100% reliable 100% of the time! ;)
    This is such a downer to me. I realize it goes on. But just hearing about it breaks my heart for those dogs. Humans can be so cruel.

    Honestly, I didn't feel it was taken personally and I was rather enjoying the discussion. :pt:

    I think tethering a dog conjures up thoughts of 'captivity', like elephants chained by the ankle. There are too many variables in my opinion to say yay or nay. I've seen dogs tethered that seem to be left totally alone (NAY) and others that are tethered with the family working or playing right beside them. (YAY) But it seems for the most part, tethering is too easy of a way out for people that don't want to watch their dog or train them. There's a difference between tying them up and walking away and leaving them for hours on end to tying them up but being right there with them.

    And I can be just like anyone else when I see a tied dog. How long has he been like that? Does he have water? food? Does he get other exercise too? A tethered dog just brings those thoughts, sorry. Especially if you never see him any other way. ie playing with their owners, on a walk, in a car....

    I, personally, could never tether and leave. Way too many scenarios of danger come to mind. Tangling, another dog or coyote, forgetting that the sun moves! Which brings up another terribly sad scenario that I heard about a neighbor years ago. It was an unbelievable hot day and they put their dog outside on a tie out. It was a Weimaraner. They forgot about her. :( A/C on in the house and they couldn't hear her if she barked. And I'm sure she did. By the time they remembered her, it was too late. Every time I think of that it breaks my heart again. Its so easy to do when you tie them up outside. You think they are safe so your mind forgets.

    But if I were working in my yard and had my dog near, but tied, doesn't that seem like an innocent thing? THAT I could see. But it would only be while I was there. If I went inside to eat, potty or what have you, that animal comes with me. Too many times you think "only a minute'' and distractions make you forget and suddenly a lot of time has gone by.

    And all that said, let me tell you the ONE time I tether! :) When its gorgeous outside and I want the dogs with me but I am going to be cleaning stalls! I will sometimes put Buddy on my horses lunge line and Kali on a thin clothesline type of rope and tie them to the deck on my horse barn. They hate it. lol Buddy hates being tied, probably because he is free 99% of the time. But I don't want to get busy in the barn and have to keep walking out and looking for them. Especially Kali. Buddy will usually park it somewhere and lay down. Kali too. But sometimes if I'm taking a longer time she'll start investigating. And being so small it takes me a while to pinpoint where she is. This way they are safe and near. BUT I am still looking out the stall windows ever so often just to make sure they are not tangled or something.
     
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  10. Regalis

    Regalis Notable member

    And that was kinda my point, my dogs aren't left out unattended. I don't even leave them out in a fenced yard unattended. One of us is always right there. It's really not uncommon for us to not even step foot in the house for 6+ hours. So in that case, I hardly see the issue. And they don't live on a tether. They come in when we do, they go for walks, we play ball (with a long line because again, main road, too many variables, not worth the risk of them bolting).

    My husky was actually family oriented, well trained, good with cats and other small animals (not common for the breed) and partially reliable off lead. But not reliable enough. If he saw another dog, he was going to run to them (to play, not aggressively) but at 75 pounds, he could scare people who didn't know him. Off lead training is also hard to work on here, as there is a statewide leash law. Meaning for people like me that don't have a safe place to start, it generally doesn't happen. And starting in a yard with a main road right there is not wise.

    Oh, and back to the walking kids and dogs. There are numerous sections I have to walk where the sidewalk is the side of the road. There is no grassy median. On one side you have traffic on the other businesses. It's not even wide enough to accommodate two large dogs in a heel, and they absolutely need to be in a heel due to the massive amount of distractions and variables. All it would take is one minor incident for catastrophy to hit. I don't even like walking those sections with one dog. But I have to in order to even get to more practical walking areas.

    And because I also have small kids, there is no stepping in the house and getting distracted. I think the longest my dogs have ever been "left" is long enough for me to step in the house to carry stuff out. It's not always practical to take them in and out everytime, especially if I'm carrying a lot or carrying big/heavy stuff.

    Tethering my last rescue to me would have been cruel. She could barely walk sometimes, so having her tied to me and dragging her around the yard was not an option. I also tried to avoid making her do steps more than I absolutely had to, as she required assistance. So once she was out, she stayed out unless we were going in for more than to just grab something. There was no way I could get her up/down steps AND carry something, anything. She weighed about 80 pounds and it took everything I had to just keep her and myself steady. (Yes, I realize she was not "most" dogs, but still, there were days she couldn't even stand up without help).

    Thus, there are always variables that have to be taken into consideration. It's not as simple as how long or how trained or whatever.
     
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  11. NikiL02

    NikiL02 Formerly Nlr02 $ Forum Donor $

    Did you ever look into the law any deeper? It likely is in a similar format to Ojis.
     
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  12. Horselady

    Horselady Member

    I didn't read all but will hippo and weigh in.

    I wouldn't attempt to walk my two kids and my teo big dogs all together. Great that some lady does, but no way for me. All 5 of us would end up hit by a car, mostly because kids don't listen, not the dogs fault.

    I assume this law will be enforced at animal control's digression and I assume that what they are trying to do is give something enforceable for dogs who are tied out in an inhumane way. Let's face it there are a ton of dogs tied in the back yard that never come inside, never get off the line and are thin, getting fed every other day or so when the kid or adult remembers. Often if animal control shows up the dog has food and water and so they have no rights to remove the animal in that moment... This gives them more rights when animals are clearly being abused. It also will make most people more conscious.

    That would be my guess and while it might cause some people grief, it sounds best for dogs as a majority.
     
  13. Regalis

    Regalis Notable member

    Ojis is a bit more practical, but still has flaws.

    As Ive said before, I do not agree with time limits of any form if the dog is attended and supervised.

    The 10pm to 6am rule, while well intentioned, is ridiculous. Not everyone lives and works a normal schedule. For some folks, night is their day. As long as the dogs are not unattended and/or causing a noise issue (which is likely already illegal), them being tethered out at 2 am should not be an issue. My old neighbor happened to be one of these people. Her dog was often tethered outside at all hours of the night as she watered plants and did whatever else she did. I never heard that dog and it was less than 50 feet from my often times open bedroom window.

    I see so many dogs around here in fenced yards that you never see attended, or out for a walk, or being played with. So why are just the tethered ones of concern? I have one two doors down that barks the entire time it's outside. It never shuts up. I never see anybody out with it. I've never seen anyone take it for a walk. Nothing. Sometimes it's out late at night. But because it's not on a tether, that's ok?!

    As I've said before - you can not legislate good owners into existence. There are plenty of dogs who never see a tether but truly are neglected and abused, in the sense that they never get interacted with beyond minimal basics, no walks, are severely obese, etc etc etc. But all that is fine, so long as fluffy or fido is indoors and not being tethered. If my dog is skinny, you can bet your ass I will have to explain it. But morbidly obese? Nah. Who cares how damaging it is. This isn't truly about helping dogs. It's about aesthetics and control.
     
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  14. Drogon

    Drogon $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    Just when you think you're out, they pull you back in.

    Just because it won't stop all dogs from being neglected doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Making drunk driving illegal hasn't stopped all drunk drivers. No law stop all people from breaking that law.

    The real question you have to ask yourself is why do you need to tether your dog.
     
  15. Regalis

    Regalis Notable member

    We've gone over this. Not all dogs can be off lead and having them attached to you is not always practical. There are many times when tethering makes a lot more sense than trying to have the dog attached to you. Mowing, weed whipping, carrying stuff, health issues, working in the sun, burning brush, cooking (yes, we cook outside over the bonfire a lot).

    Not everyone can fence. My old neighbor couldn't, her home was a rental and the landlord would not allow fencing, she asked and even offered to pay for it.

    Would you rather the dog be secured or given the chance to get hit by a car, burned, caught up in the mower/weed whip, etc?

    Comparing drunk driving is not even close to the same thing.
     
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  16. bomary

    bomary Hot Topics Subscriber

    can't look away.png
     
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  17. Drogon

    Drogon $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

     
  18. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Totally agree with your thought in your previous post regarding the time of day. I used to work overnight 12 hour shifts. That's just one reason the time of day requirement is wrong.

    I agree with everything else you have written too, as far as I recall at the moment.

    One thing I will say is that the drinking & driving law analogy actually does make sense in this way: While I don't drink and drive very often, I can tell you that I hold my beer well and I can drive very well after drinking beer. However, the laws being what they are – especially today where I feel like someone can get busted for driving after like one drink – the law affects me even though I don't need it to. Kind of like you don't need the tethering law because you take good care of your dogs, yet the law affects you.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2017
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  19. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Phew. I was able to get back in and change "effects" to "affects" within the 15 minute editing time limit. :anonymous :
     
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  20. Drogon

    Drogon $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    Long story and completely off topic but I was able to get out of a court case because the opposing lawyer wrote effects instead of affects in his brief
     
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