When do anti-tethering ordinances/laws go too far?

[Regalis]

How many of you make sure that your dogs get a walk or mental stimulation every 3 hours? Be honest.

Do you realize they can get mental stimulation ON a tether? Just because they are tethered doesn't mean they are being ignored.

Why do they need shelter if they are not out in rain or snow?

What makes you think the toddlers are not being taught that?

Most people when faced with restrictions are going to choose the easiest route. In this case, it's going to be surrendering to avoid fines, especially since this is in a low income, poverty stricken city. There are MUCH bigger fish to fry than the dog on a tether for a portion of the day.

You make it sound as if a dog on a tether is somehow being abused or neglected, which may be the case sometimes, but not always.

 

[NikiL02]

How many of you make sure that your dogs get a walk or mental stimulation every 3 hours? Be honest.

Do you realize they can get mental stimulation ON a tether? Just because they are tethered doesn't mean they are being ignored.

Why do they need shelter if they are not out in rain or snow?

What makes you think the toddlers are not being taught that?

Most people when faced with restrictions are going to choose the easiest route. In this case, it's going to be surrendering to avoid fines, especially since this is in a low income, poverty stricken city. There are MUCH bigger fish to fry than the dog on a tether for a portion of the day.

You make it sound as if a dog on a tether is somehow being abused or neglected, which may be the case sometimes, but not always.

Im not saying they are. Playing devils advocate here remember. Im purposely thinking up arguments against yours not because I disagree with your side but to point out the opposition's. You're very defensive btw. Maybe dont take this so personally? We can end this debate if you want to because you feel attacked or offended.

My dog is personally taken out of his crate every 3-4 hours to be played with and allowed to potty.
When i was a kid my gsd was tethered as he was an escape artist and food/water aggressive to our other dogs. 6.5ft fence? No big deal to him. But he had a shelter despite being under 2 large trees. Thats one i wont budge on and I do believe in. Actual covered shelter not a tree or two. With a way to warm themselves.
Even the dog sled dogs our friends had each had their own dog house. Obviously their tethers were sigifigantly shorter than your dogs were nor as dogs taught specifically to run would they have been taught to also stay home. (I also understand this is much harder with husky and terriers having owned both.)

What time frame would be acceptable for you that would also benefit the dogs being left putside 24/7 like my neighbor's? He was completely ignored except for food and water.

 

[Drogon]

What if another dog approached them and a fight broke out?

That dog would die in pain.

The petite woman who walks her two 120 lb. Rotts and her three toddlers is putting everyone at risk. Trained well though they may be, no dog is totally reliable.

I disagree. A well trained dog is one that is totally reliable.

You purport that all types of aggression can be trained out of a dog? A very sweeping claim. I don't believe that training can always win. Some things are inborn to some dogs. There is nurture, and there is nature. If you're looking at a dog that has already had bad habits establish, and has had bad experiences, it's even more unlikely that training can always solve the problems.

OK maybe there's one dog in a ten thousand that can't be trained. Remember the Mike Vick fighting ring? I forget how many dogs there were 50 or 100. All were rehabilitated and placed in homes.

 

[Regalis]

Im not saying they are. Playing devils advocate here remember. Im purposely thinking up arguments against yours not because I disagree with your side but to point out the opposition's. You're very defensive btw. Maybe dont take this so personally? We can end this debate if you want to because you feel attacked or offended.

My dog is personally taken out of his crate every 3-4 hours to be played with and allowed to potty.
When i was a kid my gsd was tethered as he was an escape artist and food/water aggressive to our other dogs. 6.5ft fence? No big deal to him. But he had a shelter despite being under 2 large trees. Thats one i wont budge on and I do believe in. Actual covered shelter not a tree or two. With a way to warm themselves.
Even the dog sled dogs our friends had each had their own dog house. Obviously their tethers were sigifigantly shorter than your dogs were nor as dogs taught specifically to run would they have been taught to also stay home. (I also understand this is much harder with husky and terriers having owned both.)

What time frame would be acceptable for you that would also benefit the dogs being left putside 24/7 like my neighbor's? He was completely ignored except for food and water.

I'm not into the time limits, period. As I think the key should always be whether the dog receives interaction/is attended. If attended, no time limit. Unattended? I'm really not sure, perhaps 3 hours would be reasonable in that case.

And I still don't understand the need for shelter unless they are out in rain/snow or when it's particularly cold. Mine never were. While we still tethered them in winter, it wasn't for nearly as long. Weather depending, it may be just long enough to go potty and get a good quick run in. My mom's outside only dogs have houses, but they don't use them in summer. They head to the shade or kiddy pool. If they are being tethered out in rain or cold, then yes, a shelter would be needed. But on just the average summer day? But where my dogs were at was also mostly shaded all day by trees and the business next door.

I don't agree with anyone having a dog that they don't interact with other than to feed and water. But we can't legislate that, as there's no way to prove it. Plenty of primarily indoor dogs don't receive proper levels of interaction either. Lots of outdoor only dogs do. There are wayyyy too many factors that go into it to legislate easily.

OK maybe there's one dog in a ten thousand that can't be trained.

And how many dogs/breeds do you have experience owning and training?

Anyone who knows huskies, knows they are virtually never able to be trained to be reliable off leash. Hounds can be pretty bad as well.

Fighting line dogs are notoriously animal aggressive. Period. It's genetic. You can't just train it out. You can control it to a degree, but they should NEVER be trusted with other animals.

That dog would die in pain.

And how in the world do you propose she control two dogs that massively outweigh her, 3 small kids AND make the attacking dog(s) "die in pain"? Do you know how hard it is to stop a dog between two dogs?! Let alone 3 or more? And how little warning there sometimes is? You've never had an off leash/loose dog suddenly appear out of no where and try to go after your dog? Count yourself lucky if so, because it happens rather often. You're not even being remotely practical. The average human is not some sort of super ninja.

 

[Drogon]

And how many dogs/breeds do you have experience owning and training?

This isn't about me but I've had 7 dogs of various breeds. The one I walked through the streets of Chicago off lead was a Rottweiler / GSD mix.

Anyone who knows huskies, knows they are virtually never able to be trained to be reliable off leash

That's ridiculous. I've had friends with huskies, malamutes, and hounds that were all well trained.

Fighting line dogs are notoriously animal aggressive. Period. It's genetic. You can't just train it out. You can control it to a degree, but they should NEVER be trusted with other animals.

Yes it can be trained out. All of the Micheal Vick fighting dogs were rehabilitated.

And how in the world do you propose she control two dogs that massively outweigh her, 3 small kids AND make the attacking dog(s) "die in pain"?

She wouldn't have to control them at that point. They would be protecting her and her children from an attacking dog. She wouldn't 'make' the attacking dog die in pain her Rots would.

You've never had an off leash/loose dog suddenly appear out of no where and try to go after your dog?

Again this isn't about me but yes I have. Drogon grabbed him by the back of the neck and held him to the ground and released him when I told him to after the owner arrived.

 

[Regalis]

A dog can be well trained, and still not be reliable off lead. Huskies are just one example of a breed that is commonly considered one that should never be trusted off lead. And that's coming from the breed experts.

No, not ALL of Vicks dogs were rehabbed and many stayed in a sanctuary. Just like not all working dobes are the same, not all dogs from a fighting ring are the same. The true fighters, the ones that excel at it anyways, are unable to be trained to reliably NOT fight another dog, especially if that dog instigates it. As such, any responsible owner of such a dog is going to steer clear of other dogs.

And if she let her dogs defend, there's a real chance her dogs would be euthanized. Or seriously injured. Or even killed in the fight. Just because they are big does not guarantee they will come out on the winning side. And in a true fight to the death dog fight, any human nearby is at serious risk of being caught up in the fray. Remember those toddlers? Yeah, how well do you think they'd stand up to somehow getting mixed up in the middle of it?

Drogon pinning a dog is not the same as a true dog fight. In an all out dog fight, where both dogs are red zoned, there is a very very serious risk for human injury. Even the most experienced trainers/behaivorist/etc caution against getting near two or more dogs in an all out fight, because it's dangerous. People have been killed in just this way.

 

[NikiL02]

Maybe in Detroit loose running dogs happens fairly often but I've only met one where I live near Denver. It was a rather large Rottweiler who thankfully wasn't at all aggressive. Plenty of "fighting" breeds at the dog park too and I've yet to see an actual dog fight. Only the husky crosses and small dogs with complexes seem to be at all aggressive.

There's plenty of ways to find out if a dog is ever interacted with when it's outside a home. Animal control could contact neighbors and set up wildlife cameras. We're not talking about inside a home, because the argument being made is "a limit of 3 hours of continuously tethered dogs" and whether that is fair or not.

is the entire backyard covered in trees? How in heck can a dog be tethered with an area FULL of trees and yet not become entangled around them to the point of almost not being able to move? Dogs really have very little concept of tethers or leashes. That's why untrained dogs have no idea and will trip you with the leash, or walk on the other side of a tree or post. They really cannot spatially understand. Scientifically proven. Back to the yard, can no rain get through? Is it continuously shaded? Are you okay with someone making sure all of those bases are covered before they allow someone to have their dog outside without shelter? Or could just a simple dog igloo make those worries go away and someone doesn't have to stand outside your yard making sure the dog is always able to get shade, be out of the wind or even a light rain. No they're not going to melt but I can tell you my dog certainly thinks he is. LOL The dog igloos or an insulated dog house will actually keep the dog cool in summer as well, keeps them out of even the lightest rain, and allows protection from wind, especially if there's a flap or the entrance is sheltered.

Again, this isn't about you. This is about the law that's been enacted and how it affects various people. Some, like you WERE, that mayy have no fence and maybe were outside all day, and others that aren't. I work. I can't be outside all day in the summer. Like most people I know. Many people work and can't be outside all day, and not everyone can afford to stay home with small children. Likely neither should their dogs have to deal with heat, rain, wind, snow, etc, without shelter. At least you can agree that an unattended dog should probably shouldn't be left outside all the time.

Likely this law is about UNATTENDED dogs, not ones being actively played with or interacted with.

 

[Drogon]

No, not ALL of Vicks dogs were rehabbed and many stayed in a sanctuary

Lost Dogs: Michael Vick's Dogs and Their Tale of Rescue and Redemption.
Of the 49 pit bulls animal behavior experts evaluated in the fall, only one was deemed too vicious to warrant saving and was euthanized. (Another was euthanized because it was sick and in pain.)

And if she let her dogs defend, there's a real chance her dogs would be euthanized. Or seriously injured. Or even killed in the fight. Just because they are big does not guarantee they will come out on the winning side. And in a true fight to the death dog fight, any human nearby is at serious risk of being caught up in the fray. Remember those toddlers? Yeah, how well do you think they'd stand up to somehow getting mixed up in the middle of it?

Two 120lb Rots can handle any 1 dog. Yes they might be injured and yes the might be euthanized depending on the laws where it took place. I don't think the toddlers would be in the middle of it. I think the Rots would get to the attacking dog before it got close enough to the children.

Drogon pinning a dog is not the same as a true dog fight. In an all out dog fight, where both dogs are red zoned, there is a very very serious risk for human injury. Even the most experienced trainers/behaivorist/etc caution against getting near two or more dogs in an all out fight, because it's dangerous. People have been killed in just this way.

Yes I am aware.


Nothing you can say will change my mind about the actual topic of this thread. No matter how much you try to justify it.

 

[MischasMomma]

I'm not going back and quoting everhthing I wanted to because ill be honest I don't feel up to cutting out the oarts irrelevant and it would get way too long. Hopefully I remember everything I want to touch on...

I'm sure shes seen it and has just stayed out of it, but id like to use @AresMyDobie as an example. Boo, her gsd mix rescuse was dog reactive, people reactive, and high prey drive. With the proper training, she can now pass any dog with no reaction, doesnt chase the cat and allows people arpund without reacting. A friend of Amandas has a husky. From my understanding, Meeko is pretty darn reliable off lead. My basset hound is about 99% off lead- I only say 99% because I occasionally have to repeat myself- but weve never had to chase her down, catch her, or otherwise have her leave the yard. With proper training, rehabbing a dog or right from the start, I feel any dog can get to 100% reliable. And I know mischa isnt there because of my lack of persistence, not because of her. As much as I'm not a fan of pitbulls or bully breeds (for my own personal reasons that I wont get in to) youre telling me that our pit rottie mix should never be trusted with other animals because hes a "fighting line" breed? This 130lb dog is the most gentle I've ever seen with cats, allowed Mischa to nip at his legs ("herd" him so to speak) and never so much as lifted a lip, let alone growled or snapped.

Our camping rules is that any dog must be leashed and supervised at all times. So whether that's tethered at the camp site (easiest when cooking or tending the campfire and wanting to keep her far enough away) or on leash on your person, they just cannot run loose. This is for the safety of everyone, the dogs included, that a child doesnt run up, another dog, get hit by a car, stolen, etc.

I walk Mischa along a main road. Have been since she was 18 months old and her heel wasnt perfect then, but with the prong and a lot of diligence, I am 150% confident in her behavior here. And if I had toddlers I absolutely would walk them with her. She stays right beside me, sits when I stop walking, and waits for my command to start moving again. Yes we have had other dogs approach us as well. If thats such a big concern, carry a weapon. I personally have pepper spray. MY dog is trained to follow my lead. She trusts me and if I tell her settle, she knows I have the situation handled. My job is to keep myself, my dog, and my family safe. If that means kicking or pepper spraying the shit out of a dog approaching us aggressively, then so be it. Again, training is key for your dog to trust you to handle it.

Now I need to read back through and see if I missed anything I wanted to say lol

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Remember those toddlers? Yeah, how well do you think they'd stand up to somehow getting mixed up in the middle of it?

Yes.

 

[MischasMomma]

Yes.

My concern would also be them WITNESSING the ordeal. Id feel confident the dogs would protect, and in the case of a fight, mom should move away with said toddlers to prevent human injury if a dog fight becomes inevitable... But again as I stated earlier, it is my job to protect my dog and prevent a fight from happening in tbe first place.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

This isn't about me but I've had 7 dogs of various breeds. The one I walked through the streets of Chicago off lead was a Rottweiler / GSD mix.



That's ridiculous. I've had friends with huskies, malamutes, and hounds that were all well trained.


Yes it can be trained out. All of the Micheal Vick fighting dogs were rehabilitated.



She wouldn't have to control them at that point. They would be protecting her and her children from an attacking dog. She wouldn't 'make' the attacking dog die in pain her Rots would.



Again this isn't about me but yes I have. Drogon grabbed him by the back of the neck and held him to the ground and released him when I told him to after the owner arrived.

I'm not going to devote too much time to this, on the chance that you're just messing with us, Drogon. You're an intelligent guy and some of the things you're stating are surprising. You're speaking in ideals and presenting dogs as being able to be like robots – infallible and supremely predictable. I say that one never knows what an animal is going to do – or a human.

So many things can happen in any situation, especially a fight. A 90 lb. woman controlling two 120 lb. Rotts and three toddlers? If the Rotts are of stable temperament and are loyal to their pack, they will act protectively of the four humans. So let's set aside for the moment the possibility of the Rotts getting so into the attack zone that they turn on each other or any human within range. Let's just consider the possibility of the humans getting wrapped up in the leashes – happens very commonly. Consider one of the toddlers getting a limb or even a neck wrapped in a leash of a lunging 120 pound dog. Consider now the woman getting pulled into traffic. Is she going to be able to shout to her three toddlers to stay on the sidewalk/side of the road?

Vick's fighting Pits: No matter how many of them were "rehabbed" and found reliable enough to place in homes, those Pits are always going to have to be carefully handled. I don't believe that anything could have been done to totally remove the inherent quality to go mano and fight like a Pit if they were drawn into a fight. Requisite disclaimer: I am not a Pit hater.

 

[Drogon]

Let's just consider the possibility of the humans getting wrapped up in the leashes – happens very commonly.

Let's remember we don't have a leash law and these Rots are not on lead.

Vick's fighting Pits: No matter how many of them were "rehabbed" and found reliable enough to place in homes, those Pits are always going to have to be carefully handled. I don't believe that anything could have been done to totally remove the inherent quality to go mano and fight like a Pit if they were drawn into a fight. Requisite disclaimer: I am not a Pit hater.

You should read the book Lost Dogs: Michael Vick's Dogs and Their Tale of Rescue and Redemption.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

How many of you make sure that your dogs get a walk or mental stimulation every 3 hours? Be honest.

Do you realize they can get mental stimulation ON a tether? Just because they are tethered doesn't mean they are being ignored.

Why do they need shelter if they are not out in rain or snow?

What makes you think the toddlers are not being taught that?

Most people when faced with restrictions are going to choose the easiest route. In this case, it's going to be surrendering to avoid fines, especially since this is in a low income, poverty stricken city. There are MUCH bigger fish to fry than the dog on a tether for a portion of the day.

You make it sound as if a dog on a tether is somehow being abused or neglected, which may be the case sometimes, but not always.

I've been wondering: Your tether situation: Is it on a pulley? I've never used a pulley setup but it seems pretty slick if done well. If yours is not a pulley setup, how do you achieve the dogs not getting wrapped around trees, bushes and each others' cables?

 

[MischasMomma]

I've been wondering: Your tether situation: Is it on a pulley? I've never used a pulley setup but it seems pretty slick if done well. If yours is not a pulley setup, how do you achieve the dogs not getting wrapped around trees, bushes and each others' cables?

By pulley, do you mean retractable lead on a stake? Or say hanging down from something like a clothesline where it can slide back and forth?

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Let's remember we don't have a leash law and these Rots are not on lead.



You should read the book Lost Dogs: Michael Vick's Dogs and Their Tale of Rescue and Redemption.

So the Rotts in question are not on lead? That improves the safety of the scenario – for that family at least. Any of the humans getting knocked off their feet and finding themselves laying on the ground in close proximity to a dog fight is a harrowing scenario.

I have to say it's a pretty unusual visual – the woman and three young kids walking down the street with two large, unleashed Rottweilers. I mean, it's cool but it's menacing. If I were walking/running Oji on that street and saw that, I'd probably turn around. It would take a ton of trust to go by two unleashed Rotts of that size. Do you think they are well enough trained that they would not stray toward us as we ran by? What if Oji went off at them? How close would they stay to their family? 10 feet? 20 feet? Is that enough room on that street?

 

[Oh Little Oji]

By pulley, do you mean retractable lead on a stake? Or say hanging down from something like a clothesline where it can slide back and forth?

The second option: I mean hanging down from an overhead line.

 

[MischasMomma]

The second option: I mean hanging down from an overhead line.

I thought that might be what you meant. We got the first option as a christmas gift and the ground is just getting warm enough I can actually stake it in securely. Im excited to try it though, the whole casing spins so it seems very unlikely to tangle or get caught on anything the way it spins and retracts.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I thought that might be what you meant. We got the first option as a christmas gift and the ground is just getting warm enough I can actually stake it in securely. Im excited to try it though, the whole casing spins so it seems very unlikely to tangle or get caught on anything the way it spins and retracts.

I had not heard of such a setup. Interesting. It would have to be heavy-duty while being functional. Hopefully you can share with us how it works for you.

 

[Drogon]

If I were walking/running Oji on that street and saw that, I'd probably turn around. It would take a ton of trust to go by two unleashed Rotts of that size. Do you think they are well enough trained that they would not stray toward us as we ran by? What if Oji went off at them? How close would they stay to their family? 10 feet? 20 feet? Is that enough room on that street?

The Rots are solid. People even jog between the two of them from behind and/or from the front. There's barely enough room on the sidewalk for both rots to walk side by side so with 4 other people they take up more than the sidewalk. One Rot is usually on the sidewalk and the other walks in the 'parking' between the street and side walk. Runners would have to go into the street or into someone's yard if they don't run between them. Some people of course change sides of the street or turn around but they do that just when I walk Drogon too. The only dog I've seen go off at them was in his own yard. The dog charged but I think was on an electric fence because he turned and ran back and forth as if there was a fence there. The Rots just looked over at him and kept walking 'at heel'. I'm not sure how old the Rots are but I don't notice any grey on their faces - but I'm not putting my face that close to know for sure.