1. Disclaimer: Hello Guest, Doberman Chat Forums presents the opinions and material on these pages as a service to its membership and to the general public but does not endorse those materials, nor does it guarantee the accuracy of any opinions or information contained therein. The opinions expressed in the materials are strictly the opinion of the writer and do not represent the opinion of, nor are they endorsed by, Doberman Chat Forums. Health and medical articles are intended as an aid to those seeking health information and are not intended to replace the informed opinion of a qualified Veterinarian.”
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Hello Guest!
We are glad you found us, if you find anything useful here please consider registering to see more content and get involved with our great community members, it takes less than a minute!

The Institute of Canine Biology The Doberman is in Serious Trouble

Discussion in 'Doberman Health and News Articles' started by Apollo's Dobermom, Mar 12, 2017.

  1. Regalis

    Regalis Notable member

    He was also the runt of the litter. So I imagine his siblings are likely bigger!

     
  2. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I get your meaning, but being clear for the two DCM tests is just one part of the picture! Are you saying that no matter how poor a specimen of the breed, if a Doberman is DCM clear it probably should be bred in order to help rid the breed of the disease? There are other problems in the breed, you know – too many to list – including structural problems.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Then, we have to consider temperament problems. SO complex!

    In my opinion, the current state of the breed is such that it is quite likely that one will wind up with a skittish, weak-temperamented Doberman.
     
  4. Regalis

    Regalis Notable member

    Well, that is the one thing I can say Kaizer is NOT. Which is why I cringe to think of his siblings possibly in the hands of not necessarily bad owners, but unprepared and under educated owners.

    Supposedly both the sire and dam were of euro breeding. His daddy, the rott, was not the typical fat, lazy American rotty. He was a massive guard dog that watched over the police impound lot the guy ran.

    So I think in order for it to work and not further weaken the doberman breed in temperament and workability, any out crosses would HAVE to be proven working dogs.
     
  5. Drogon

    Drogon Hot Topics Subscriber

    Drogon was nearly full size at 8 months he was 80lbs. Now at 2+yrs hes 90lbs
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I would throw my support wholeheartedly behind this notion. Lets work on health. Let's work on structure. Let's work on temperament, BUT this is a breed intended to be a personal bodyguard! I don't like to fool myself. I like to think of whether my Doberman would stand strong against an attacker that wielded a weapon like a baseball bat or similar striking weapon, and struck my Dobe with it in furious fashion. This ain't fun to think about, but this is the meat of the issue, people.

    I don't like to fantasize about "my Dobe would know the good guy from the bad guy and would protect me." I want a hard Dobe from lines that have proven, at least through sport (as much as that is capable of proving something), that they are capable and hard.

    So, yes, I would vote for Dobes of proven working lines to make up as much of the breed's blood as possible. Remember, our breed is a personal bodyguard.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Regalis

    Regalis Notable member

    I really don't think Kaizer is near done growing. I could be wrong. But he's not slowed down at all yet. His growth has been pretty steady the entire time. And his sire was freaking huge, pushing 200 lbs of raw muscle. He was an amazing specimen of a Rott and I'm not a huge fan of them in general.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Drogon

    Drogon Hot Topics Subscriber

    I wouldn't say 'no matter how poor a specimen' but a generally healthy Dobe who is clear clear then yes after reading the article I would say they should consider breeding. Yes I'm aware of other problems but this article was regarding DCM. The article makes it seem that if we don't fix the DCM problem, the rest won't matter.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    It's been my impression that working-line Dobes live pretty long. Are we onto something here?

    Yes, my previous working-line Dobe died at 8 yrs. of bloat, and that sucks.

    It was my understanding that many working Dobes live longer than your typical Dobes – as into the teens. This is what I expected. Now, I would not mind too much if Oji died young. :rofl: But the great Alexander Von Haus Jagen lived to 14 years and is one of the most influential Dobes in working lines. Incidentally, he was fairly prominent in my previous Dobe's blood (who died of bloat at 8).

    So, maybe look at the website: Alexander von Haus Jagen – working-dog
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. sgourle

    sgourle Notable member

    I think that this is one of the points that a lot of the geneticists are trying to make as well. While crossing in a new breed may be necessary, breeders may also need to start considering breeding pairs based on the individual dog and it's DNA, not just on its accomplishments or lines. If you can find a stud whose outbred DNA sequences complement yours bitch's inbred DNA sequences and the owner is willing to do the other health testing (hips, holster, etc), then you might not have champions on both sides but you will have less inbreeding and inter-relatedness. The UC Davis VGL and Doberman Diversity Project both seem to be great starts at moving toward judgement by DNA and not historic prejudices.

    Also, looking at the same site "are we watching the extinction of a breed part 2" it is easy to see how a rapid decline in the Doberman population has caised an equally rapid and detrimental loss of genes from the gene pool.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Regalis

    Regalis Notable member

    Another potential breed to consider I think would be the Malinois. In a lot of ways, their temperament is quite similar to a working dobe and unlike a lot of breeds, they haven't had a chance to be softened much yet by American breeding practices.

    I just dont see there being enough genetic diversity in the Doberman at this point, in healthy, stable dogs to not cross breed out. Yes, DCM is the current serious issue that needs to be addressed, but there are and will be others. Unfortunately, that is the downfall of all purebreds, especially since years ago no one knew the detrimental effects of inbreeding like we do now. Many dogs end up showing inbreeding further back in their pedigrees. Just as it was once fairly common for second cousins to marry. We know better now, but the damage is already done. And I won't be the least bit surprised to start seeing issues like this occurring in a lot more breeds.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. sgourle

    sgourle Notable member

    Another interesting article on her site, although older, is "Using inbreeding to manage inbreeding." There is certainly no easy solution to this problem, and will most likely require a multifaceted approach. One fun part about the Doberman Diversity Project (DDP) is that it sells to compare long term breeding effects of both traditional and protocol breeders. This will be a very interesting issue to follow in upcoming years.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. WiglWerm

    WiglWerm Hot Topics Subscriber

    This is of course a great first step, but in reality their are many (maybe thousands) of unidentified markers for DCM. I have heard of dogs that were clear for DCM and then passed from DCM. :(
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  14. WiglWerm

    WiglWerm Hot Topics Subscriber

    Seems like a great deal for all those genetic tests for 150 on Doberman Diversity Project!!
     
  15. My2Girls

    My2Girls Notable member

    Honestly after loosing our cocker after only 5 yrs - one health issue after another and spending a small fortune ( my husband wanted a "real dog" and his favorite breed) we intentionally went to a hobby breeder for Princess because we didn't want all the health issues with overbreeding (like our show cocker). Unfortunately that didn't work out so well because she is skittish and doesn't represent the personality of a dobie very well. But we love her anyway with all her quirks.
     
    • Appreciation Appreciation x 1
  16. sgourle

    sgourle Notable member

    A vast majority are not Doberman related or specific of course, but considering the price of individual tests, and ongoing discoveries which are supposed to be included at no extra cost, it certainly isn't a bad deal. Just the vwd,pdk4, and congenital thyroid practically add up to $150. And it helps Doberman research as a whole.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  17. GennyB

    GennyB Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Some interesting ideas here.
    My thoughts are it scares me to death to think of adding another breed to the mix. I look at some of these designer dogs and one pup might be cute as can be and his litter mate not so much. You just don't know what you are going to get. It could take years to get it all worked out. I'm far from an expert so it may be necessary, but the idea scares me.
    Me, I LOVE the doberman as is. You just can't beat that regal look. How do you add other breeds and not change that?

    When Drake was 2, I took him to a health clinic where he had his first echo. Having lost a dog to DCM, of course I had tons of questions for the doc that did it. Drake always gets annual testing so I have a local cardiologist that I always talk to regularly.
    Both say they have seen an improvement in the numbers of cases diagnosed. Between better breeding practices and testing ability things aren't as bad as it looks. Yes DCM is a still a huge problem but if it were as grim as this article portrays I think we would see a lot more of it here. Granted a good portion of the dogs on DFC on young but we have had 100's come through here that lived to be a ripe old age that died of other things.
     
  18. TrueEnglishFoxhound

    TrueEnglishFoxhound New Member

    Yes, you are. Your precious "Purity" was an illusion to begin with. Dobermans are created from a HUGE compound of breeds. Purebreeding is a weakness, not a strength. The doberman can greatly benefit from outcrossing. Don't select random dogs, but dogs that can add good traits. A beauceron could produce puppies indistinguishable from purebreds, and perhaps with a bit of the protection drive american dogs are quickly losing thrown in. Purity will end dobermans if we let ourselves deplete the gene pool without refilling it. Will you be part of the problem, or part of the cure?
     
  19. TrueEnglishFoxhound

    TrueEnglishFoxhound New Member

    When outcrossing, you get back to type suprisingly quick, and an a good deal to the gene pool. Stonehenge had an experiment on crossing greyhounds to bulldogs:
    half-and-half.jpg
    half-and-half.jpg hecate1.jpg
    half-and-half.jpg hecate1.jpg hecuba.jpg
    half-and-half.jpg hecate1.jpg hecuba.jpg hysterics.jpg
     
  20. TrueEnglishFoxhound

    TrueEnglishFoxhound New Member

    Something messed up with the imaging there. Sorry!
     

Share This Page