Solid Recall

[Cranekc35]

Can anyone give me some advice on how they trained a solid recall with their Dobie? I don't use an e-collar and he's pretty good about recall most of the time. Obviously, distractions is always difficult too. I have used the long lead and he does amazing with that. But when I think he's ready without it, he goes back to the same way. I'm trying to stay away from treats and just a toy and/or lots of praise. Not sure where to go from here.

 

[Cferg]

@Doberman Gang said once. (Paraphrasing) If you don’t train at the level of drive your dog is capable of reaching. Then you will not have compliance if your dog is turned up higher than what you train at. Meaning if you train and your dog is at a 3-4 for the reward, while maintaining compliance. If something out in the real world sends them to a 7-8 you won’t have solid compliance.
Since you’re using toys for rewards. On a scale of 1-10 while playing fetch, what level of drive can you successfully call your dog off the ball? Or at least get a down mid way to the ball?

 

[Ddski5]

How old is he again?

Ehhh…I would think you would need to do a lot of recall training offleash in a controlled environment- like a baseball field. Then try to increase the distractions within that controlled environment- hard to set that up though.

Problem is that with my Dobermans, it’s so hard to call them off once they hit that distractionary prey drive. Once they hit this, they are numb to you and all in on the prey distraction. To win that battle, one must put in a shitload of time and the experience of it all will come- but again…it takes alot of time and experience of doing said skill.

IMHO, an ECollar is extremely hard to beat on recall when in high drive. The ECollar has the ability to reach out and touch them when they are numb to your vocal commands. It is a fantastic tool.

The high prey drive of mine is crazy…they just blot out everything in the world except for that one thing that has their attention. It’s not deliberate, it’s instinctive drive that I don’t think they can control unless they have years of training and trust with you. Over the years of training, mine have learned through hard knocks, that if there is a distraction….they look to me first to see what I say-and they do this because of the years of experience of being cued by the ECollar.

 

[Ravenbird]

e-collar is not a shame thing, it's a tool like a long line or a choke chain or treats or ball. I use to think I would never need one "because I knew how to train", then I thought I could use one to get us through the teenage phase. Now I know my dogs drive is higher than I can control and the e-collar is the savior.

I'll present you with an example just happened today. My friend and I went hiking in the forest, Asha always has an e-collar on off leash, not because I need it, but in case I need it. My friends dog use to run after deer, so she used an e-collar to train her dog not to. Cranked it up extremely high, the dog went after deer and she called her back , no response, hit the stim, heard the dog squeal but still no recall, hit the stim again and the dog came back to her. This was repeated one other time and has NEVER not recalled after chasing deer again. That was years ago and today, we came across a herd of deer, her dog tore out after them, no e-collar, was called back and she returned instantly (and praised lavishly when she did). Asha watched intently but never took chase (e-collar on, but I didn't have to use it).

It's a great training tool, it can be life saving and more than that, it gives your dog more freedom for the rest of its life by being reliable off leash.

 

[Ddski5]

it can be life saving and more than that, it gives your dog more freedom for the rest of its life by being reliable off leash.

Once they get it and understand…watching them be offleash, at will, is so rewarding.

 

[Cranekc35]

@Doberman Gang said once. (Paraphrasing) If you don’t train at the level of drive your dog is capable of reaching. Then you will not have compliance if your dog is turned up higher than what you train at. Meaning if you train and your dog is at a 3-4 for the reward, while maintaining compliance. If something out in the real world sends them to a 7-8 you won’t have solid compliance.
Since you’re using toys for rewards. On a scale of 1-10 while playing fetch, what level of drive can you successfully call your dog off the ball? Or at least get a down mid way to the ball?

I actually have been working on these 2 said things. It's about 50/50 right now.

 

[Cranekc35]

How old is he again?

Ehhh…I would think you would need to do a lot of recall training offleash in a controlled environment- like a baseball field. Then try to increase the distractions within that controlled environment- hard to set that up though.

Problem is that with my Dobermans, it’s so hard to call them off once they hit that distractionary prey drive. Once they hit this, they are numb to you and all in on the prey distraction. To win that battle, one must put in a shitload of time and the experience of it all will come- but again…it takes alot of time and experience of doing said skill.

IMHO, an ECollar is extremely hard to beat on recall when in high drive. The ECollar has the ability to reach out and touch them when they are numb to your vocal commands. It is a fantastic tool.

The high prey drive of mine is crazy…they just blot out everything in the world except for that one thing that has their attention. It’s not deliberate, it’s instinctive drive that I don’t think they can control unless they have years of training and trust with you. Over the years of training, mine have learned through hard knocks, that if there is a distraction….they look to me first to see what I say-and they do this because of the years of experience of being cued by the ECollar.

He's 2.5 years old. I did use an e-collar for a few months earlier on, but to be honest, I wanted to get away from it because I want a relationship with him only where he listens to me and not the device. He has done so much better in other areas without it. I have no doubt that it can be done. I've watched videos of others doing it, but like you said, it takes a lot of time to train this. I work and play with him for hours daily. I don't have a problem with this type of commitment. I just was curious if anyone had any other ideas or what worked for them without the ecollar that I could try. Thanks so much for the input.

 

[Cranekc35]

e-collar is not a shame thing, it's a tool like a long line or a choke chain or treats or ball. I use to think I would never need one "because I knew how to train", then I thought I could use one to get us through the teenage phase. Now I know my dogs drive is higher than I can control and the e-collar is the savior.

I'll present you with an example just happened today. My friend and I went hiking in the forest, Asha always has an e-collar on off leash, not because I need it, but in case I need it. My friends dog use to run after deer, so she used an e-collar to train her dog not to. Cranked it up extremely high, the dog went after deer and she called her back , no response, hit the stim, heard the dog squeal but still no recall, hit the stim again and the dog came back to her. This was repeated one other time and has NEVER not recalled after chasing deer again. That was years ago and today, we came across a herd of deer, her dog tore out after them, no e-collar, was called back and she returned instantly (and praised lavishly when she did). Asha watched intently but never took chase (e-collar on, but I didn't have to use it).

It's a great training tool, it can be life saving and more than that, it gives your dog more freedom for the rest of its life by being reliable off leash.

thanks for this different point of view on the subject

 

[Cferg]

I’m just going to state for the record. I don’t believe in a practical impulsive recall. Theoretically I think you can achieve a reasonably reliable recall without any reinforcement tools in majority of situations. Especially if you have a low to medium drive dog. And have trained for it alot. But every single dog can be put in a situation where the reward outweighs the motivation to recall. Especially if the motivation isn’t postitive punishment.

I know my best bet is to ask for a down if my dog is going to bolt for something. She has thousands of times more downs training reps, than recalls. I mean how many times in a session can you setup an in drive recall with a competing motivator? Personally my dog will see the picture being painted, and anticipate the recall before I send her for the reward after the first time. I have to drastically change the picture to keep her in drive and wanting the reward.

 

[Kaiser2016]

how they trained a solid recall with their Dobie?

We only got on board with the eCollar around age 4 so we trained recall a ton! Had plenty of scares along the way too because he wouldn’t always listen. He is 7 now and sometimes my hb will let Kaiser off leash without the eCollar but never in high distraction environments.

My friends dog use to run after deer, so she used an e-collar to train her dog not to.

Same here. Kaiser is that dog that could chase deer and only return when he decided to. That was before eCollar.

it can be life saving and more than that, it gives your dog more freedom for the rest of its life by being reliable off leash.

I was sold on eCollars when @LifeofRubie explained them as being like a seatbelt. You’re not expecting to use it, but you put it on anyway because one day it could save your life. I love the security of knowing we can reach him no matter what.

 

[LifeofRubie]

I was sold on eCollars when @LifeofRubie explained them as being like a seatbelt. You’re not expecting to use it, but you put it on anyway because one day it could save your life. I love the security of knowing we can reach him no matter what.

Oh, dang! You remember that!?

@Cranekc35 I'm sorry if I missed it but what situations are you in where your dog is off leash?

I would say there are very few situations in which a dog needs to be off leash where a long lead won't suffice (trialing is a different story but you aren't generally allowed any gear and dogs are generally contained, somehow). Off leash privilege's are earned (via @Ravenbird 's story, above!) but it takes a long time to build up that trust and it's scary when it's tested.

Is recall still important to train? Absolutely! More so curious about what off-leash opportunities you're looking at.

 

[JanS]

Our prior dogs got to the point of 99% solid recall but it took the e-collar to get them to that point. One incident I remember was when Albert was younger and had a great recall but he heard a loud snowplow going down the road and started bolting down the driveway after it, blowing me off. He had his collar on so I gave him a hard stim to stop him before the snowplow hit and killed him. He yelped and came running back to me and I pretty much never had to use it again.
If Della would have had hers on when the dreaded fox made her deaf to our recalls, she could still be with us too.

 

[Ravenbird]

I did use an e-collar for a few months earlier on, but to be honest, I wanted to get away from it because I want a relationship with him only where he listens to me and not the device.

I'm not saying you need this device, I'm just going to say once again, we've been in your shoes. I trained without it forever. I never dreamed I'd need one. But the dog in front of me was not like any other. Her drive and will to have things her own way was something I'd never seen before or learned how to deal with. I asked one trainer if we could train with it and wean off of it, and they told me that she might need it forever. I think I cried that night. But I'd tried everything and nothing stuck. So just like the prong collar (never had used one of those before either), in a day it was like magic. All of a sudden the dog realized in no uncertain terms that I really really really was the boss and needed some respect. I could reach out beyond her wildest dreams and "no" would come in loud and clear. All of a sudden there was respect. And within months after that came admiration of me being her leader, not a sidekick to use & abuse. She never lost her drive, her intensity for loving to be crazy, or her zest and push and barking at me to train, zoomies continued after the e-collar was on. She did respect the device, yes. But her love and intensity to do right and prove to me that she did know right from wrong just exploded. Your dog may just need a little tap here and there for a reminder or he may need a few Jesus meetings, I don't know your dog. But he knows it's you, not the device. He will learn to respect your commands, device or not. Once the 100% respect happens, he accepts the collar as part of the rules, just like a flat collar and a leash. It's part of the getting to go out and play.

 

[JanS]

Perfectly said @Ravenbird !

 

[Ddski5]

He's 2.5 years old. I did use an e-collar for a few months earlier on, but to be honest, I wanted to get away from it because I want a relationship with him only where he listens to me and not the device. He has done so much better in other areas without it. I have no doubt that it can be done. I've watched videos of others doing it, but like you said, it takes a lot of time to train this. I work and play with him for hours daily. I don't have a problem with this type of commitment. I just was curious if anyone had any other ideas or what worked for them without the ecollar that I could try. Thanks so much for the input.

That’s a hell of a bond and a shit ton of work, time and commitment right there- a lot…..so much that he will always overlook any distraction both animate and inanimate.

Ragnar was a rehome to me when he was 4-5months old so he had developed some bad habits and was very independent. He was a high drive asshat that had his own agenda when it came down to being reactionary to other dogs and this high drive made him numb to my voice during recalls.

The ECollar and prong was an absolute game changer for us but I will not delve into this but want to share with you with what did work for us other than the ECollar/prong.

All three of my daughters played competitive soccer so we were at the soccer fields every day (practices 5:00-6:30 and 6:30-8:00) and all weekend for years.

I worked with Ragnar every single day rain or shine for a solid 12-15months straight. Our bond was immense and so strong that we just were connected inside. I do agree with what @Cferg said with having to train in the highest drive possible in order to be able to gain respect and expect results when he goes into that high drive. The best most distractive environments we trained in were:
1. A packed soccer complex full of kids, people and other dogs.
2. The “outside” areas of a large packed dog park…distance from the fence would be dependent on his reaction to other dogs and how well he kept true focus on me. True focus is very important here.
3. In New Orleans- Lafrinere Park- is a very large bird sanctuary with fricking all kinds of birds everywhere and they are normalized to people and dogs. I would walk Ragnar short or long leash through 50-60 birds on the ground. It was absolutely insane the first five times and was a spectacle. The park rangers saw a black Doberman a mile away and watched us closely.

Ragnar would get sooo jacked up that it was pretty crazy. The key thing with him was to recognize his tells for when and how he amped up.
1. Extreme intense focus that just wouldn’t come off the object(s).
2. Immediate deep breathing.
3. Lip curling
4. Growl then barking
5. Full all out lunging.

I realize that your Doberman is prob much more trusting and responsive to training…I am just trying to paint the picture of how these highly distractive environments significantly helped my training.

Good luck.

 

[Ddski5]

All of a sudden the dog realized in no uncertain terms that I really really really was the boss and needed some respect. I could reach out beyond her wildest dreams and "no" would come in loud and clear. All of a sudden there was respect. And within months after that came admiration of me being her leader, not a sidekick to use & abuse. She never lost her drive, her intensity for loving to be crazy, or her zest and push and barking at me to train, zoomies continued after the e-collar was on. She did respect the device, yes. But her love and intensity to do right and prove to me that she did know right from wrong just exploded. Your dog may just need a little tap here and there for a reminder or he may need a few Jesus meetings, I don't know your dog. But he knows it's you, not the device. He will learn to respect your commands, device or not. Once the 100% respect happens, he accepts the collar as part of the rules, just like a flat collar and a leash. It's part of the getting to go out and play.

This is just fantastic….this needs to be patented and trademarked.

 

[Ravenbird]

This is just fantastic

Thank you. I do realize that there are just a few of us here that have or have had dogs this hard. I want to express that I use to think I was good enough that I didn't need this stuff, and even when I did, I thought it would just be a tool to get me through the rough spots. In 4 short years I've learned differently, and that when you need help, you need help and it's not a disgrace.

 

[LifeofRubie]

Oh, wanted to add!

We also have a lab and when I was in conversations with the breeder before he came home, she did say that she didn't prefer prong collars (an opinion she's certainly allowed to have!) but if we did get into field work, she was all on board with an eCollar.

It's a communication and safety tool for when your dog isn't tethered to you.

We've not done field work and his personality is quite different than my Dobes so he's not been eCollar trained but I found it interesting that even training tool acceptance differs vastly based on the disciplines of the breed you're most associated with. I'd be hard pressed to find some describe even a drivey Lab as "hard" but whenever they're running around fields, swamps, rough landscape, you want to be able to "talk" to them.

 

[Ravenbird]

if we did get into field work, she was all on board with an eCollar.

Indeed, the e-collar was invented specifically for field/hunting dogs because they were off leash and far away. Way back when, if the young dog in training misbehaved, they would fire the shotgun pellets at them, it was the only thing they could reach them with.

 

[Kaiser2016]

Oh, dang! You remember that!?

Yes! Of all the good reasons to have the eCollar, the seatbelt analogy was the one that convinced me we had to have it.