Snake Aversion training
- Thread starter BGpa
- Start date
Interesting background!
Saved for "trainers in the Carolinas"
Some species same as "Floriduh Man"...
Saved for "trainers in the Carolinas"
Some species same as "Floriduh Man"...
Bonnie has been twice, two different trainers.
First was very good, hosted at a vet, handlers very experienced animal trainers, practiced ethical handling of the de-fanged snakes, reptile expert, and was also a great dog trainer.
Said "she got it right away, probably good for life, but we always suggest a second in a year to lock it in"
That trainer was already on the circuit up north a year later, so I jumped on a second one hosted by a local "positive only" dog trainer with "last spot" hosting a local hunting guide doing rattlesnake aversion with snakes mouthes taped shut...so tired, grumpy, and rushed on the instructions...
Less precise training and created "some" superstitious beliefs...I was able to reverse, with some practice.
My bad without doing my homework.
That was a mistake, but it was ok, and Bonnie alerts now to snakes on trail, and avoids, even jumps back from lizards in bushes, even pauses at crooked sticks until sure...lol.
What snake training have you done?
First was very good, hosted at a vet, handlers very experienced animal trainers, practiced ethical handling of the de-fanged snakes, reptile expert, and was also a great dog trainer.
Said "she got it right away, probably good for life, but we always suggest a second in a year to lock it in"
That trainer was already on the circuit up north a year later, so I jumped on a second one hosted by a local "positive only" dog trainer with "last spot" hosting a local hunting guide doing rattlesnake aversion with snakes mouthes taped shut...so tired, grumpy, and rushed on the instructions...
Less precise training and created "some" superstitious beliefs...I was able to reverse, with some practice.
My bad without doing my homework.
That was a mistake, but it was ok, and Bonnie alerts now to snakes on trail, and avoids, even jumps back from lizards in bushes, even pauses at crooked sticks until sure...lol.
What snake training have you done?
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BTW...where we lived before on the edge of open space preserve it was common to find one curled up on the patio, inside the garage, seeking the rodents common in the suburban garden type landscape in socal developments.
Neighbors knew I was familiar with nature and would call me to remove a snake from their yard. I'd ask: do you want me to kill it, or relocate it? (Rattlesnakes do return to where they were found, for reasons)
If it was a king snake, gopher snake, non venomous, I'd educate them and suggest they just shoo it off but with gratitude for the rodent control (and king snakes eat rattle snakes)
I would not recommend most people mess with unknown snakes, "just call 911 And they'll call Animal Control"...
Once we were at a dog park and a man and young son and dog were leaving and the dog made a big commotion...
Went over to see a BIG pacific southwest rattlesnake coiled just inside the fence of the man trap, on the cool concrete, head up, rattling...
Just told the karens to call 911... Fire Dept showed up with a shovel and a bucket, quickly disoatched it by chopping off head, put in bucket. I asked one if this was common and they said, everyday and if its in the parks where kids are they routinely kill them.
Rattlesnakes are not rare, so not protected, and the greenies are pretty grumpy: they WILL push back, vs retreat...
Neighbors knew I was familiar with nature and would call me to remove a snake from their yard. I'd ask: do you want me to kill it, or relocate it? (Rattlesnakes do return to where they were found, for reasons)
If it was a king snake, gopher snake, non venomous, I'd educate them and suggest they just shoo it off but with gratitude for the rodent control (and king snakes eat rattle snakes)
I would not recommend most people mess with unknown snakes, "just call 911 And they'll call Animal Control"...
Once we were at a dog park and a man and young son and dog were leaving and the dog made a big commotion...
Went over to see a BIG pacific southwest rattlesnake coiled just inside the fence of the man trap, on the cool concrete, head up, rattling...
Just told the karens to call 911... Fire Dept showed up with a shovel and a bucket, quickly disoatched it by chopping off head, put in bucket. I asked one if this was common and they said, everyday and if its in the parks where kids are they routinely kill them.
Rattlesnakes are not rare, so not protected, and the greenies are pretty grumpy: they WILL push back, vs retreat...
Correction "southern pacific"
californiaherps.com
CaliforniaHerps.com, Reptiles and Amphibians of California
californiaherps.com
It's just a natural instinct for most domestic animals to be alert and wary of them.
How did the "positive only" training happen? Curious minds want to know....
Asha went to a "traditional" snake avoidance training 2 years ago using a shock collar method. Trainer said his collar had a different voltage system than most training e-collars - not sure if that was BS or not, but it worked well. Within a year we had a rattlesnake right outside our back door. I tried to take her out to see it and she absolutely wouldn't go near it.
Asha went to a "traditional" snake avoidance training 2 years ago using a shock collar method. Trainer said his collar had a different voltage system than most training e-collars - not sure if that was BS or not, but it worked well. Within a year we had a rattlesnake right outside our back door. I tried to take her out to see it and she absolutely wouldn't go near it.
Ah yes, there's been rattlesnake trainers, same company, coming up here for years and years now. Works great. Oskar, my GSD, lets us know if there's one around. Even gopher and racer snakes he avoids and barks at, from a distance. I do relocate the rattlers, but I take them about 8 miles away, or more, and spray their tails with orange upside down paint. When I turned a few of them loose closer to 4 miles away, they did come back.
While I dont' at all mind non-venomous snakes and wish we had more of them here (esp. the rodent hunters), I wouldn't be relocating any rattlesnakes. Fortunately we don't have them around here, and I have not done an avoidance clinic, b/c Brio is not off leash in areas where there are venomous snakes. The avoidance clinics in this area do allow full strikes with de-fanged snakes.
@Ravenbird my bad, poor explanation.
The dog trainer hosting the snake aversion training advertised herself as "positive only".
I've noted checked her references nor seen her work and since I'm not an official dog trainer ( with initials behind my name)...nor do I pretend to be one on the innertoobs, I cant opine on that.
I'd seen her cards taped to the sign at the off leash trail park I go to, occasionally and a when I saw a new flyer advertising "that day".
I Called and got sort of bum-rushed before asking questions, background, setting, protocol..."last spot you still have time if you hurry"...it was 15 min away, outside her house on side by street...so...
The snake training guy used the e-collar, while I was to walk up to and over the snake, while he shocked Bonnie.
His timing was variable, and he was shouting various instructions from behind...so it was a little confusing for both of us.
We did a couple more runs and it was clear Bonnie was NOT associating the zap with snake, and was getting confused and anxious looking around for the threat...not the beat up old rattler too tired to rattle or raise its head as we stepped over it.
so I politely finished up.
He said "we need to do more again, as I'm gonna have same problem as the (inferred but not clarified LEA) K9's - she trusts you too much"...
I took his card and promised a call back in a few months.
The positive only trainer gave off weird vibes...
First thing that sort of set a red flag...
Had her son taking pictures and video (without asking, no disclosures) and when I asked then politely but firmly said, "no photos, no video thank you to be shared, do not put us on social media" she got sort of huffy.
She did offer to share later photos directly to and when I called she flaked. Same when I asked for snake trainers name...
Did not feel professional at all.
Maybe a scam, who knows.
All in all, the lesson learned for ME was;
needed to do better due diligence, vs rush in to git-r-done.
In our area there are two or three that drive a circuit, starting Feb-Mar and working north, hosted by vets, breed clubs. I'd missed the one from a year before, but it was getting warm and I wanted to "lock in" Bonnies understanding as recommended...
If you miss its a year wait. I should have.
Live and learn.
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That's pathetic.
Our e-collar man was very professional, he stood 20 - 30 feet away, the snake was in a fairly open area, not in a cage and we were to walk by on a leash about 10 feet from the snake. The snake rattles, Asha looked at it and when her eyes landed squarely on the snake with her interest peaked, the trainer hit the button. Asha jumped back to my side and we walked a circle, coming back to the snake from the other direction and she avoided it by going behind me and coming up on my right side to walk, putting me between her and the snake. She didn't need a second look. After everyone was done, we did another walk by - it was by then more than an hour later - it was in a different area, she heard the rattle and again, went behind me to get me between her and the snake. She looked toward it but with total avoidance and he did not use the e-collar but the very first time. It's how it should be - one & done. Pretty sure I posted a thread on it here.
Yup, here it is - I misremembered a little but here's the story when it was fresh:
Our e-collar man was very professional, he stood 20 - 30 feet away, the snake was in a fairly open area, not in a cage and we were to walk by on a leash about 10 feet from the snake. The snake rattles, Asha looked at it and when her eyes landed squarely on the snake with her interest peaked, the trainer hit the button. Asha jumped back to my side and we walked a circle, coming back to the snake from the other direction and she avoided it by going behind me and coming up on my right side to walk, putting me between her and the snake. She didn't need a second look. After everyone was done, we did another walk by - it was by then more than an hour later - it was in a different area, she heard the rattle and again, went behind me to get me between her and the snake. She looked toward it but with total avoidance and he did not use the e-collar but the very first time. It's how it should be - one & done. Pretty sure I posted a thread on it here.
Yup, here it is - I misremembered a little but here's the story when it was fresh:
Thanks, the first time trainer for Bonnie was similar:
I'd signed up for the seminar arrived early, got to watch working the other dogs, talked to his assistant/GF who was signing people in, and a young guy who was handling snaked until they chased me off...
There was a lull after me so I got to sit with him and ask some questions...you know the type- on the spectrum smart on dogs, pretty reserved with strangers especially nosy ones like me, but a goldmine once he opened up.
Kind of reminded me of Buck @Sunje
His partner handling sign-ins was a pro horse rider, barrel racer, done some stunt stuff in hollywood, etc.
The guy grew up around animals- his family had a road side zoo, lizards snakes etc was how he got started...his main gig was falconry: natural management of starlings for farmers...but that was declining so he started snake training, to fill in and it became hos main thing, worked a big circuit.
Here is how it went:
He handled the dogs (not the owners) and would walk a bit, get them calm on leash while another assistant put first snake out on a trail in the sun, obvious to see as come around a cornet....as soon as Bonnie laid eyes on it, indicated interest; took
A step forward: zap.
Wait for her to circle from behind his leg, calm down to a heel sit, walk up again and if she went for it again...zap.
Assistant retrieved the first snake, back to the shady canopy put up the first back in a cooler and opened another pulled out a fresh sevond snake...
Walked out aways out of sight of dog while distracted on heel...this time snake set in long enough grass to conceal, and once clear the dog handler walked Bonnie up on it from downwind...again, easy to see body language tell, and on going for it...zap.
Only once needed.
Repeat the retrieve, replace snake
Last onr was a big angry snake laid out just over a rise behind a log buzzing loudly after being set down.
And trainer walked up same drill.
So it was sight, smell, and sound of the snake with hand of god expert timing on the zap. No commands, other than calm redirext to a heel and walk away get ready again.
This removed the owner who might be slow on the marker.
I'd signed up for the seminar arrived early, got to watch working the other dogs, talked to his assistant/GF who was signing people in, and a young guy who was handling snaked until they chased me off...
There was a lull after me so I got to sit with him and ask some questions...you know the type- on the spectrum smart on dogs, pretty reserved with strangers especially nosy ones like me, but a goldmine once he opened up.
Kind of reminded me of Buck @Sunje
His partner handling sign-ins was a pro horse rider, barrel racer, done some stunt stuff in hollywood, etc.
The guy grew up around animals- his family had a road side zoo, lizards snakes etc was how he got started...his main gig was falconry: natural management of starlings for farmers...but that was declining so he started snake training, to fill in and it became hos main thing, worked a big circuit.
Here is how it went:
He handled the dogs (not the owners) and would walk a bit, get them calm on leash while another assistant put first snake out on a trail in the sun, obvious to see as come around a cornet....as soon as Bonnie laid eyes on it, indicated interest; took
A step forward: zap.
Wait for her to circle from behind his leg, calm down to a heel sit, walk up again and if she went for it again...zap.
Assistant retrieved the first snake, back to the shady canopy put up the first back in a cooler and opened another pulled out a fresh sevond snake...
Walked out aways out of sight of dog while distracted on heel...this time snake set in long enough grass to conceal, and once clear the dog handler walked Bonnie up on it from downwind...again, easy to see body language tell, and on going for it...zap.
Only once needed.
Repeat the retrieve, replace snake
Last onr was a big angry snake laid out just over a rise behind a log buzzing loudly after being set down.
And trainer walked up same drill.
So it was sight, smell, and sound of the snake with hand of god expert timing on the zap. No commands, other than calm redirext to a heel and walk away get ready again.
This removed the owner who might be slow on the marker.
Sounds like the company that does the snake training in my area. They also set out a pile of shed rattler skins too. Also, very last thing they do, dog is on a long line, they have you call the dog, but between you and the dog is a rattler that had been placed there. Nice to see the dogs avoid that rattler by giving it a wide berth.
It sounds like good training, but I would never hand over my dog for this. Nor would I want to have the remote for the e-collar. Many dogs wouldn't care, but my dogs personality wouldn't do well with a stranger leading her around, then find a novel sound/smell of snake then get a serious correction for looking at it. I firmly believe that the dog should be totally relaxed, see/hear/smell the novel creature, associate that creature with the discomfort and then move on like normal. There are a thousand reasons why the remote should not be in the owners hands, 99% of the ones at our clinic had never used an e-collar on their dog. But I can't see a single reason that they should have taken the leash from you. Obviously it works ok, just my opinion.
Now that I've learned more, I agree.
I'd prefer to be handling my dog.
But if I'm unclear or the rattler trainers marker is unclear, confusion reigns and my dog loses trust in me.
It was very effficient from a time and scheduling standpoint.
They also used their own collar and remote so that variable was fixed.
The idea was to make the association with the snake and nothing else.
"I am not a trainer nor do I pretend to be one on the innertoobs" (should be my signature)
I know, I'm just here to cheer you along.Actually in this case, I'm adding my two cents in case anyone is looking at snake avoidance clinics, so they can make decisions off of our experiences.
If you're just walking your dog in an area, there should be no input from you, so no mistakes can be made on your part. It's all on the trainer to watch for the perfect timing. You just walk the dog, the trainer has the remote. If he can't get that right, the dog *may* gain suspicion about an unrelated thing, but almost certainly she wouldn't lose trust in you - you are just walking the dog like you always do. The only thing in your walk about that is different than any other is a snake and a high stimulation from an e-collar. That's one reason I liked that the snake was not in a cage (some clinics have you walk next to caged snakes). Then you can raise suspicion going by cages/kennels/glass aquarium looking things.
But to ease your mind, I seriously doubt your dog would loose trust in you, especially a Doberman. IF the stimulation is mishandled and the dog is in a strangers hand rather than yours, I could see your dog losing trust in being handed over and walked away from you, because now there's something else associated with the snake/shock: a stranger holding her leash and you not being there by her side.
I always encourage anyone in snake country to take their dogs to an avoidance clinic, but I had no idea they could be so different, so I'm glad you posted your experiences. I guess I lucked out, because in my eyes the trainer we had did everything right. @BGpa, did you click the link (up above) to my thread & video about the snake clinic I went to?
Thanks, @Ravenbird yes, I saw your youtube a couple months after the first one I attended.
And no worries, greatky appreciate the coaching and comments.
I share so I can learn more from my mistakes and if it helps others thats a good thing too.
And no worries, greatky appreciate the coaching and comments.
I share so I can learn more from my mistakes and if it helps others thats a good thing too.
