Sibling syndrome?!

[Corky]

Hello, I have lurked a bit and looked into this possibility.
I have never heard of this until a Freind stopped by and saw our new Doberman puppy’s. (Yes, there are 2 and they are girls)
She mentioned it after seeing them really go after each other.
It’s bad, they are scary fierce when they start to fight.
Starts as normal puppy sparring but only takes a minute to go into vicious snarling and growling and once separated, they are “hellbentforfury” to get back at each other and continue.
Our girls are 10 weeks old. We have had em 2 weeks. We love them, we also have human children and yesterday when the pups ( Call names Sassy and Charlie ) went after each other (pretty violently) my 10 yr old went to break them up and took a nip.
Of course it was not intentional but guys…that scared me for the child and the pups!
If the fights are like that at 10 weeks I can’t imagine what it could be like at 6 months and beyond!
I was raised in a home with animals and my parents bred and showed English bulldogs so I am aware of the normals of puppy banter and arguments.
What I see here is beyond banter and arguments. It’s down right scary!

 

[BGpa]

I'll defer to the more experienced but suggest that you do a search here and elsewhere for:
1. "Same sex aggression"
And
2. "Litter mate syndrome"

And what to do about it.
With a documented bite on a child you are gonna need to get on this now. Not trying to scare you, or be judgemental, and with respect to your long experience in dogs...this has the potential to go sideways fast.

If you are the same Corky who just posted an intro; with recent dobe experience from fostering a couple of senior dobes out of rescue, and no recent puppy raising- at 10 weeks dobe pups are indeed in the Mad Max dobe bitey phase, so you have lots of work to do,

And its all good, including teaching your ten year old two legged child how to interact...

 

[MyBuddy]

Welcome! We got our first male Doberman puppy in 1995. Back then our breeder told us if we ever got a second, that it should be a female. She warned us about same sex aggression. I knew nothing about that nor anything about litter mate syndrome.

Since then we've only had one Doberman at a time and we are on our fourth. But I've been on this board for over 15 years and have learned a lot about that. And have seen a lot of people suffer through it.

From what I understand also, two females sometimes are worse than two males. But in the long haul, what usually happens is, 'crate and rotate.' Meaning they cannot be left out together. Especially alone. One must be in a crate while the other one is out.

I find it a little surprising that yours are already like this at 10 weeks. That seems awfully young. But I don't have any experience with that. Someone else here may have some input for you.

Were they taken away from their mother very young? I know that's usually an issue too. The longer they are with the mother, the more she is able to teach them. I agree with everything @BG1 said above too.

 

[Ravenbird]

At only 10 weeks this is *probably* just rough Doberman play. They will absolutely fight & turn up the vocals. @Rits has raised a couple of litters and could give you input on what is normal play at this age since I don't think she sent them to their new homes until 12+ weeks, and did grow out a couple together, so lots of personal experience on crazy rough Doberman play at that age.

That said, for personal pets I would not recommend littermate puppies, or even puppies from different litters in the same age bracket, and with this breed especially, never the same sex. When they reach maturity that fighting can become entirely different and deadly serious. It won't matter if they are spayed or not, if it escalates the only answer is to rehome one or crate/rotate the rest of their lives. If at all possible, I would return one of those puppies asap so they both have a better life as someones single pup. And that's just the SSA issue, littermate syndrome is very real as well, and pretty much the same answer.

I wish you the best - as @BG1 suggested, use the search icon on each topic and you will see many threads & personal stories to give you an idea of what can happen.

 

[Two Dobes]

I will just add that many breeders will not sell littermates, for reasons mentioned. And the girls may have the exact same temperament, which may be what is causing the issues at such a young age = "I want to be the boss" and nobody is intersted in taking the back seat. A male with a female (in my experience) works best, because boys always seem to respect the girl, even if the boy was in the house first.
LOTS of info on this subject on this forum...it sounds as though you will be able to get a handle on this, especially because you appear to want to fix this, and have caught it early. Good for you being a proactive Doberman parent! Guessing these are your first dobie youngsters?
Keep us posted, and we would love to see photos of the girls

 

[Rits]

At only 10 weeks this is *probably* just rough Doberman play. They will absolutely fight & turn up the vocals. @Rits has raised a couple of litters and could give you input on what is normal play at this age since I don't think she sent them to their new homes until 12+ weeks, and did grow out a couple together, so lots of personal experience on crazy rough Doberman play at that age.

Oh yeah, around 8-12 weeks they are sick of each other and can get really nasty. Usually they sort it out within 15-30 seconds but there are more than 2 so it becomes a nice pack balance and not 1 v 1. I honestly find it important that they stay with the litter during this time because of this but I know 8 weeks is the legal earliest they can go home and some breeders want them out the door as soon as possible, a little bit understandably because it is SO MUCH work at that age.

@Corky I would honestly return one puppy to the breeder or re-home if no contract. With human children in the mix someone could get very hurt. I have littermates. The right way to make it work is through crate and rotate, individual training classes, individual exercise, eating, pottying, etc. My littermates are rarely out together. We train and bond with them individually. Can they be out together? Oh, yes! Quite well! But, thats because around 10-12 weeks I started crate and rotate. When the one is out of their kennel with us, we make sure their time is mentally and/or physically enriching since they just were napping. So where the average person may have their dog's out 24/7 with them and get to enjoy a dog that naps around, dogs who are crated and rotated, their naptime is spent in the kennel so they are going to want to do something when they aren't kenneled. I find doing this makes their time out of the kennel much more thoughtful and purposeful to them. Ill take the time to train and exercise them individually during this time. Then you have to repeat the same when you put that dog away and let the next dog out. It can be a lot on the human if you aren't prepared. A lot of time, energy, and dedication. Its a for life thing so if you think you can manage that, then thats what you will have to do. If not you will have to make the decision to do whats best for the dog and your children.

 

[BGpa]

^^^ +100

 

[BGpa]

Welcome! We got our first male Doberman puppy in 1995. Back then our breeder told us if we ever got a second, that it should be a female. She warned us about same sex aggression. I knew nothing about that nor anything about litter mate syndrome.

Since then we've only had one Doberman at a time and we are on our fourth. But I've been on this board for over 15 years and have learned a lot about that. And have seen a lot of people suffer through it.

From what I understand also, two females sometimes are worse than two males. But in the long haul, what usually happens is, 'crate and rotate.' Meaning they cannot be left out together. Especially alone. One must be in a crate while the other one is out.

I find it a little surprising that yours are already like this at 10 weeks. That seems awfully young. But I don't have any experience with that. Someone else here may have some input for you.

Were they taken away from their mother very young? I know that's usually an issue too. The longer they are with the mother, the more she is able to teach them. I agree with everything @BG1 said above too.

Just a comment, @MyBuddy to yours and @Two Dobes observations:

I heard second hand from an owner of a big male bred for working line in executive family protection type training, as explained to her by a third generation dobe trainer:

'If the male doesn't defer to the female, or worse- seriously harms her, then there something broken with the dog,
and it cant be used for breeding or further training'...

I might not be explaining it accurately, and since its second hand- I guess its just a shaggy dog story but I've wondered about it from time to time.

@Corky I wish you the best. Trust your gut and remember if this is not just typical ruff doby puppy play,
But
IF this is a harbinger of full-on same sex aggression,
(which I read is especially serious in dobe females)
Then:
"there will be blood".

Its impossible to judge without being there, and I'm a relative dobe noob so I defer to the rest, but as a parent;

Here is a thought if its any help, as in you might be looking for affirmation on something you and partner might be struggling with:

...it will be easier to frame this "as best for everyone to rehome one" now,

Rather than later...god forbid after another incident involving a bite to family...

and to do so in a positive way that helps your daughter understand why, too. Its not her fault, she was a brave girl to step in, but next time it could be worse and even adult trainers need to be very careful breaking up a fight, which can be to the finish...so...not to scare you but...be safe- crate and seperate for life is the only prudent course now.

Tough call.
Wishing you the best, trust your gut, Mom,
is all I have to offer...

 

[JanS]

At 10 weeks you are not seeing the true seriousness that can come out when they start hitting maturity after they hit 6 months or so. As stated, returning one of them (I know it's tough) would probably be the best unless you have the time to keep them separated and spend a lot of individual time with each one. Really both pups would be happier in a separate home of their own and after your pup is mature (about 2), you can look for a different pup of the opposite gender.

 

[Ravenbird]

At 10 weeks you are not seeing the true seriousness that can come out when they start hitting maturity after they hit 6 months or so.

I agree. They don't have the hormones triggering emotions at this age, it is not driven aggression, it's just escalated rough play. What they CAN have at this age is frustration escalating with each other, vying for attention or food or toys or just tussling and getting over stimulated without their mother there to snap and snarl "cut it out, you two!" - if I'm understanding @Rits (and others) experience of why it's important for puppies to learn manners in dog language as well as from their human owners. There is also something called redirected frustration where you break up the fighting and one of them redirects their bite to you (or your child). By the time they are only 6 months old they will be 50 - 60 lbs and still a wild puppy at heart. That's a lot of dog for a child to be in the way of.