Dog dominant posturing leads to a fight.

[Aaron56]

Freyja knows all my daughters very well and keeps an eye on them when they are home.

Kelsie has been off to college for quite some time, met a boy who has a female Boxer/Pit mix (Cha cha). She has recently moved close to home and been wanting for Freyja and Cha cha to meet.

They come over and I have boyfriend walk Cha cha one way and Freyja and I go the other way- on leash. We gradually get closer and closer, let them look and sniff the air. Do this for 10-15 mins until Cha cha calms down (not trained)- Freyja is fine.

We gradually get closer again and we let them be free on leash to smell each other and do their circling….never would have figured but Freyja is dominant posturing with hackles up- the boxer/pit is too. I watch them closely and am talking to both of them and hackles go down, tension in the air goes down and they sort of happily circle each other. Now we are following each other on the leashes for 10mins with no issues. All is hunky dory.

We go in the back yard and all is good so we them off leash so they can possibly run and play because Cha cha did a play bow. Well all was good until Kelsie comes out the back door- Cha cha runs to her and so does Freyja and dog fight ensues….my first time to be in the middle of a dog fight and that shit is fricking hectic and crazy. I am glad I was wearing my Apple Watch because I got bit on my left wrist while pulling them off each other. Two punctures on each side of the watch, the front incisors clamped onto my watch with the canines going on each side.

Finally got them apart. Freyja is fine with no injuries. I have never seen her in battle mode, aggressively fast and intense. I sent Cha cha home…no way that relationship is gonna work now.


Question:
If Freyja always demonstrates dominant posturing when in the act of meeting new dogs, does this mean she will always attempt to have the dominant presence?

Is it like a concrete one or the other? One dog is dominant and the other submissive? Can two dominants be around each other without it being a ruckus? I mean how is it that I see videos of 15-20 Dobermans running around and playing? There has to be a couple of dominants in that group….

I ask this because the young female golden across the street that meets Freyja in front yard always immediately play bows and submits. I mean, it is very obvious she has no aspiration to be queen bitch on Freyja. So Freyja doesn’t feel trespassed or disrespected and lets her guard down to play?

So when Freyja meets another dog that presents with dominant posturing, then it’s a no go and immediately shut it down?

Depends.


Sometimes you will be better served letting the dogs 'work it out' on their own and sometimes you will need to step in a make a firm decision / reinforce pack 'rules'.

Which dog actually bit you and how did you respond to it when it happened?

 

[Ddski5]

Which dog actually bit you and how did you respond to it when it happened?

Tbh, I am not for sure. It happened so fast.
I did nothing but separate them and look for injuries.

 

[Ravenbird]

I am thinking about "hackles up".

Does that automatically equate to posturing as in dominance behavior?

Or is it on the continuum from relaxed, to fights on!

And how to positively redirect that?

As @JanS mentioned, it can be different and especially mean different things on different dogs. In almost all mammals it is fear-based and a self-protection posture. Cats are well known for this of course, the iconic arched back and fluffed tail is to make them appear larger and dangerous to whatever they are afraid of or concerned about. With dogs I'd venture to so say it is sending a message to the other dog is similar. A dog at a vet clinic backed into the corner of its kennel with hackles up would be a dog likely to bite out of fear of being cornered and left with no choice. Hackles up on Jans photo is simply a dog who is extremely alert at a potential danger. What person amongst us has never felt the hairs on the back of our neck stand up or goosebumps on our arms? So fear-triggered, but doesn't always mean a fearful dog.

How to redirect? I tell my dog "leave it" and/or remind her with a collar pop to look at me if we are in public. If we are hiking and she hears/smells something - I think in that video where a bear was close by, I let her walk along with her hackles and reassure her that we got this, but I don't discourage it. I think letting them hair up emboldens them and I don't want that directed at a dog or a friendly stranger, I want her to know that I'm in charge. An unknown thing in the forest I don't discourage and a stranger driving up the driveway I let her do her thing which is hackles and barking but then I tell her "enough" and "Platz" as a signal to stop. Admittedly she still grumbles at the down, but it helps to control a dominate dog to put them in a down to lower their physical status - as long as you have control of the threat and you aren't putting your dog in danger.

I feel horrible that I didn’t prevent this from happening, I should have foreseen this scenario.

I think you went over & beyond what the average Joe would have even thought about. So many people just say "yeah, bring your pup, they can play in the back yard while we have a beer". You did everything you knew and also knew what worked in the past. I've said before, all Ashas biggest blowups were when I'd let my guard down. You've just reminded me that I've become pretty lax about things because with age and experience Asha has become very dog & people neutral in public and I do forget to watch out for the triggers. It just takes a split second.

 

[BGpa]

I'm doing something similar with Bonnie. On or off leash I tell her stay, while she is alerting and watching. I also tell her good girl and make a point of looking where she is when she checks in, so she knows I appreciate the headsup, but next step is up to me, unless I release her.

If its something that MIGHT turn into something, like a coyote, or a stray thats clearly dog aggressive, or anything else

That I dont want to seperate...I dont want...to harm or be harmed on next step..
Then I either walk up on her, to leash
Or
I calmy but firmly recall to a left heel, leash.

This former would be the safest way in Mt Lion country for both of us, looking bigger together, to habituate the cat without triggering prey drive.

We practice this a lot at dog beach where she is 100% fixated on kong floaty toy, and I'm teaching longer duration, under his distraction...holding a sit or stay as other dogs circle to see what the fun is all about.

This includes at a dogpark, dog beach, any where when she might get overwhelmed like in reply to pack of knuckleheads that decides she is the rabbit. I've seen her stand down a couple of huskies that couldnt/wouldnt read the room with the dobe "scream"....but I dont like to see her have to run tail tucked either.

As I prefer and default to "no fighting whatsover" except in a no-sh1t situation which I'm sure would come up and her instinct to defend me, wife, kids would emerge. I'm a big guy and capable of other means of self defense, so Bonnie is eyes and ears and mobility assistance at some point.

Again, I'm not interrsted in anything PPD like as I'm teaching SD now, and documented trsining is disqualifying according to some sources.

An alarm bark is allowed, outdoors but thats it and not in polite company inside on the vest.

One thing I've read is once dobes realize their power and go beyond declining ruff play, to pursue to punish, they can become bullies.

I dont want that so I cut it off anytime either side is showing "end of the game" but the other pursues...calmly but firmly, "leave it" is a good all around command, for us.

I used to try to help clueless idiots with fearful or reactive dogs at dogpark
but have realized "no one listens to free advice as its worth what you paid for..."

I may get some cards made up with $500/hr consulting to see if that works better ...(j/k)

So I just leave go sit in car until the dangerous idiot and clueless dog has left.

 

[JanS]

So many people just say "yeah, bring your pup, they can play in the back yard while we have a beer".

I've seen that all too often and people will let their guard down and not be paying attention to the dogs. Of course places like dog parks are worse when they just let their dog go and keep their head buried in their phone.

 

[Aaron56]

Tbh, I am not for sure. It happened so fast.
I did nothing but separate them and look for injuries.

When in doubt I am siding with my older girl Dystopia. If she growls at the new shit for whatever reason I am going to growl at her too.

Rules are what they are and new girl is lowest on the totem pole and all so...

I can trust that if the older (and properly trained) girl was growling at the newer girl that the newer girl 'earned' it in some way.

 

[LifeofRubie]

So true. I feel horrible that I didn’t prevent this from happening, I should have foreseen this scenario.

Honestly, you just don't know, sometimes. We always strive to set-up for success and learn if something doesn't work right

 

[BGpa]

Honestly, you just don't know, sometimes. We always strive to set-up for success and learn if something doesn't work right

Progress, not perfection...and again
@Ddski5 thanks for sharing, really enjoy hearing others progress and the wise advice here on dobes, especially.
There are very few experienced trainers in my area who actually have deep dobe experience, and they are NOT cheap, and are busy.

On the other hand there are dozens of very nice young people starting out adverstising as "positive only"...

Thats not a slam, just a reflection of the difference in easy social dogs like goldens,
vs a big working guardian breed...like the pack in @Ravenbird video

 

[Ddski5]

I let her walk along with her hackles and reassure her that we got this, but I don't discourage it. I think letting them hair up emboldens them and I don't want that directed at a dog or a friendly stranger, I want her to know that I'm in charge. An unknown thing in the forest I don't discourage and a stranger driving up the driveway I let her do her thing which is hackles and barking but then I tell her "enough" and "Platz" as a signal to stop. Admittedly she still grumbles at the down, but it helps to control a dominate dog to put them in a down to lower their physical status - as long as you have control of the threat and you aren't putting your dog in danger

Yes, I usually identify the threat/issue first and watch for when Freyja picks it up. I let her acknowledge and react somewhat. Then when I think she has made her point and fulfilled her duty, I will let her know. Ragnar taught me this… @Ravenbird- you were right.


@BG1
Good stuff up there! ^^^^^^

I used to try to help clueless idiots with fearful or reactive dogs at dogpark
but have realized "no one listens to free advice as its worth what you paid for..."

I may get some cards made up with $500/hr consulting to see if that works better ...(j/k)

Funny and true!!

 

[Two Dobes]

@Ravenbird " This put both dogs on an instant reminder that the human is in charge and their personal feelings take back seat."
Love this!