Questions about the breed
- Thread starter JustTheDevil
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I think it's a lot more nature than nurture – what an individual dog is born with; but no doubt at all that dogs that serve in specific protection and combat roles like that have been extensively trained, desensitized and tested. Their capabilities have been nurtured and increased.
A dog, however, either has the goods to be worked with or it does not.
You might be able to get a mediocre dog trained and nurtured up into satisfactorily doing one of those jobs, but it's not a dog I'd want to place my trust in.
I also think of dog sports. I used to put a ton of stock in Schutzhund (IPO / IGP) titles even though I knew it is mostly or fully a game to the dogs. These days I'm less impressed. I know you can spoon-feed a dog to titles. I feel, quite frankly, like my Oji's dam, an IPO III, is an example. It was shared with my by his breeder when I asked about Oji's trouble achieving an effective full-mouth bite that his dam had a lacking bite when younger and it had to be trained and brought up to snuff. By contrast, my previous Dobe had a hard, effective full-mouth bite with zero training and at a very young age.
My mind goes to the footage I saw years ago of a Secret Service dog (German Shepherd or Mal) that was sent toward a man that had jumped the White House fence. Just as the dog reached the man, he landed an effective hard kick to the dog's head. The poor dog was stunned and turned and ran back toward the handler. I mean, I guess you could say that if a dog, or other animal has never been exposed to anything like that, it is understandable that it would retreat from such a shocking, unfamiliar experience; but I'd expect a dog that I would describe as "fearless" to respond by staying engaged and going in for the kill. I mean, it's win, or die trying. There's no retreat.
So, to answer your question (with my opinion
) I would say that fearlessness, or near fearlessness, is a naturally-occurring trait in an animal. I think it's vastly more prevalent in wild animals than in our domestic dogs.
Skb
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You explained that so well! Thank you. I have always been curious about this but could never find an answer.I think it's a lot more nature than nurture – what an individual dog is born with; but no doubt at all that dogs that serve in specific protection and combat roles like that have been extensively trained, desensitized and tested. Their capabilities have been nurtured and increased.
A dog, however, either has the goods to be worked with or it does not.
You might be able to get a mediocre dog trained and nurtured up into satisfactorily doing one of those jobs, but it's not a dog I'd want to place my trust in.
I also think of dog sports. I used to put a ton of stock in Schutzhund (IPO / IGP) titles even though I knew it is mostly or fully a game to the dogs. These days I'm less impressed. I know you can spoon-feed a dog to titles. I feel, quite frankly, like my Oji's dam, an IPO III, is an example. It was shared with my by his breeder when I asked about Oji's trouble achieving an effective full-mouth bite that his dam had a lacking bite when younger and it had to be trained and brought up to snuff. By contrast, my previous Dobe had a hard, effective full-mouth bite with zero training and at a very young age.
My mind goes to the footage I saw years ago of a Secret Service dog (German Shepherd or Mal) that was sent toward a man that had jumped the White House fence. Just as the dog reached the man, he landed an effective hard kick to the dog's head. The poor dog was stunned and turned and ran back toward the handler. I mean, I guess you could say that if a dog, or other animal has never been exposed to anything like that, it is understandable that it would retreat from such a shocking, unfamiliar experience; but I'd expect a dog that I would describe as "fearless" to respond by staying engaged and going in for the kill. I mean, it's win, or die trying. There's no retreat.
So, to answer your question (with my opinion
I think it was a documentary on tv or something but a police dog was going after the suspect, suspect jumped off a building (I forget exactly how high) dog didnt hesitate and jumped after him. The dog had ended up with internal injuries and almost died but made a full recovery.
LOL, especially if it's a human!sometimes being fearless means you are not very bright.
HappyJoe
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I agree. I have been in a couple Schutzhund clubs and I have found most of the dogs see it as fun and game. You have to build up their confidence. If something out of the ordinary happens they get thrown off their game and need reassurance.
I will quote an incident I wrote about that occurred with Joe that impressed me and scared me at the same time.
"We had him about a week and were sitting on the back patio with Joe on a 20 ft tether when a worker started to come around the side of the house. Joe gave a warning bark and the guy kept coming. On that side, the patio is screened, but there is a 22in opening underneath. The dog did not stop at the screen, he flattened himself and went right under it, came up and the guy stopped with his hands up. Joe stopped too, didn't bite and held the guy in a guard position barking and growling and he was serious."
This was all on his own without any encouragement or training with us. He doesn't seem to have had a lot of previous training, didn't know how to walk on a leash, didn't know stay.
I don't know that he is fearless, but he comes off as a very confident dog. That is why I chose to put him in a training retreat right away and with a facility that is used to doing protection work.
I'm just glad he has a basically sweet disposition. Been to the vet several times with no behavior issues.
If bred for that kind of work and brought on correctly, they shouldn't back off. If not trained properly and set up to lose enough times, they will come to understand they cannot win. Being born with good nerve and not wanting to back down doesn't mean they will fight to the death. It means you have the opportunity to work with a brave dog and set it up to win enough times that it won't back down. You build the confidence and encourage it. Just as easily you can take a brave dog and ruin it by forcing too much pressure on it too soon. It's a fine line and Dobermans especially are few and far between that are bred hard enough to take the kind of pressure in IGP. Taking "just any Doberman" (or any other breed not bred for bite sports) to try IGP and most won't bite a biscuit. Joe's disposition is typical Dobe-like: basically sweet but will take a stranger seriously. There are some serious working line Dobes, some nice show lines and as this thread began, some very nice therapy dogs, SAR dogs etc.
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