Question on socialization

[Cferg]

Good question and I hadn’t thought about this!! I want a dog my kids and I can love on. A dog we can go running around on our property with that will chase the four-wheelers when older. (Now she rides slowly on it with my husband.) One that will always be with us. If we’re swimming, she’s laying there with us, or jumping in the pool if she decides to be a swimmer. If we are by the fire roasting marshmallows, she’s right there. I also want one that hears a noise at night and sounds like she wants to eat someone. A dog that sees a REAL threat and protects my children. (Not the UPS man. However, she likes him. I think she know he makes me happy dropping off my Amazon packages!) A dog that my 7 yr-old, who is very introverted compared to my other kids, can tell all his secrets to and share his bed when she’s older.

We are pretty much homebodies, but always busy around the house and property. This is how we picked a Dobe. A fierce, loving family dog, active to keep up with all of the kids, and force me to be a bit more active. A dog who will be loyal to the family and not want to run away, like all the strays out here in the country. A dog that truly wants to be with their owners Oh, and a dog that will scare the bejesus out of an intruder…even if that means she secretly a scaredy cat!

Now for the reason everyone is commenting on this thread. The whole “protective” part. This without a doubt is the most unrealistically romanticized aspect of our beloved breed. I would say 99% of the situations that we humans describe as protective events. Are rooted in fear at the most fundamental level. That being said in practical terms it isn’t that simple and it is definitely on a spectrum. And for sake of keeping this as short as possible I’m going to use the term “suspicion” to describe this behavior.
From my experience of living with a highly suspicious dog it isn’t always as great as most people envision it to be. That being said me and my family have come to appreciate our dog. Although it did take a couple of years to understand how her mind works and how she sees the world. Having her with me 90% of the time. And taking her most places I go has come in handy I have to admit.

Now for some scenarios of what it’s actually like. I’ll start with my kids and their friends. Stassi is somewhat toned down and less suspicious when it comes to children I’ll give her that. But it simply is that children are smaller. Because she is less accepting of my sons 13 year old friends that are boys because they are pretty much the size of grown men. Even though to us humans we would still consider them children dogs don’t know that.
But with my 10 year old daughter’s friends she is much more accepting. One of the girls actually looks so similar that from even a short distance my dog initially won’t tell the difference. A very interesting event happened one time that really showed me how Stassi sees things and what she will have a defensive response over. My daughters friend spent the night with us with no issues from my dog. But the next morning when they woke up ,the friend walked out of the room first to use the restroom. My dog watched her walk out with no reaction at all. A couple minutes later almost simultaneously ,my daughters friend came out of the restroom and then my daughter from her room. Stassi took off barking she bypassed the friend and was barking at my daughter. She soon realized it was my daughter and stopped but she did look confused when she came back to me. The best explanation I can come up with is that she forgot there was a girl staying with us. And she is so pattern cognizant that when she saw the second little girl that looks so similar. Her first reaction was “there’s two of them and one doesn’t belong in this house” Intruder alert!!

I can go on and on with stories but I’ll let you ask about something specific. If you want the un-romanticized version of Doberman life.

 

[Cferg]

Didn’t think this was going to be a debate on public schools. I just didn’t think going to public schools and going to a dog park were remotely comparable. We can agree to disagree on this one.

Yeah this is a dog forum.
I once read a post somewhere about people getting flack about cropping and docking. Someone literally connected cropping with abortion. “My body my choice” they said. Holy smokes could you imagine spending time with a ray of sunshine like that. Geez

 

[Tizpear]

It is very difficult to train a dog to work both ways. Do you want a guard dog to protect your property or a dog that is friendly to anyone and everything they come across no matter what or where it is?

You did say - "She will be a working guard dog for us".



Example: Back when I had Mojo (single dog family at the time and female Doberman) my boys were 8 and 10yrs old. That dog got regularly rewarded for keeping crap out of my yard. She picked up on that really, really fast but was as gentle as could be with everyone in our family - people that were 'supposed' to be there and that were there every day. Very protective of her family.

Went to take her pee one day and about the time we got to the front part of the house where she could see the entire front yard she bolted off to the side in full tilt boogie 'I am about to get that ass mode' after something she saw.

I was not far behind her and got to see myself what was going on as soon as I rounded the corner and saw that the older son was standing up and pulling off his ski mask. Mojo was less than 10 feet away from him at that point and 'realized' who exactly it was about the same time I did and was clearly slamming on her brakes...

The boys were playing 'cops and robbers' outside (this was back in the old days when kids actually played outside instead of on their phones). The son with the ski mask on was the 'robber' that time and had been hiding behind a bush about to spring on his brother before the dog saw him and charged, ready for a fight with an trespasser / intruder. (no, the boys did not inform me they were playing this sort of game out there prior to the potty break)

Kids eyes got big as pie plates when he saw his own dog charge him like that. From that point on he had an entirely different level of respect for that dog. If the dog had not seen him take off that ski mask when he did (and before she got there) it would have not been a good thing for the disguised son.

Little kids and guard dogs at the same time are about as hard as it gets as far as home training is concerned. Not so much because of the dog but because of the kids and how kids are.

You have to train them ALL at the same time.

Thank you for sharing your story about your boys. It’s very important to me to keep stories like these constantly in my mind (and they are!) in regards to my children’s safety.

Since before we brought Jolene home, I have been telling the my 5, 7, & 11 year-olds “she was meant to be a killer.” Sounds silly to describe her that way, but I wanted to impress on them that while we will love this dog, it is to be taken seriously how dangerous she could get. Not to scare my children, but to respect her and her nature. Now obviously, my 2 & 5 year olds don’t understand this. Everyday, I am working with my 4 youngest children (older 3 are 16,18, & 20 so they don’t have to be reminded) on how to treat and respect our new dog and her breed. From the basics like, don’t put your fingers in her ears to stay out of her face, especially when she’s excited. At the same time, I am probably torturing my poor pup since I am constantly touching her tail nub, paws, ears, snout, whiskers, gums …literally EVERYTHING on the poor dog to get her used to a child’s accidental grab/ jump/ fall. So far, she is doing great! So are the kids!

I guess you’re right…I can’t have this dog be a true guard dog and a friendly, family dog that loves everyone. I think I will change my response to a loving family dog that is protective. Honestly, since we live so far out in the country my husband doesn’t want her to like anyone, except us. I would like her to be cautious of everyone we have over. Hopefully by seeing us warmly welcome someone, she will be more welcoming to them as well.

Thanks again for sharing your story!

 

[Tizpear]

No dog parks unless you are working on discipline and dog reactivity by working/training/playing OUTSIDE of the fenced park. If you need more info on how that works, just ask.

Your dilemma….friendly and social or a guard dog? Hmmm…not that easy imo, but you can have both but it takes a shitload of time, energy and training.

I believe the vital backbone of a having a great Doberman is discipline/obedience. You have this and you can pretty much call the ball Maverick (call your own shots). I say this because the amount of time, energy and training put forth creates such a tight personal bond between you and her that she should always look to you before acting- unless it’s purely instinctual and she is out of sight unsupervised (which will not and should not happen with a velcro Doberman).

My fence is currently down because of past hurricane- actively building it back up now. We have a Catahoula cur with right neighbors that ALWAYS comes in our yard. The left neighbor has a Rott mix and a beautiful pound yellow shepherd (gorgeous). I’ve done extensive training with both of my Dobermans with the prong and ECollar. I only use the prong if in public and I pretty much use the ECollar everyday since our fence has been down.

Freyja 2.5yrs, CANNOT stand for any other dogs to be in our yard. She knows and plays with the other dogs from time to time but the next day? If the cur comes in our yard? Freyja is not happy at all and will bolt out there and bum rush the cur with ferocity. Ragnar- 5yr male? Ehhh not too concerned really, he watches me to see how reactive I am to the situation. If I am upset and using a strong loud voice then he can get pretty active.

I think you can absolutely have your dream Doberman to protect, be friendly, be social, etc….but it’s gonna take a shatload of YOUR time, energy, persistence and patience. I did it everyday after work for approx one hour for 12-15months until I felt Ragnar and Freyja were confident and disciplined. My next door left neighbor is currently doing it with her two pound dogs and is being extremely successful. She also has three little girls that join in too. Very impressed with her fortitude to have disciplined dogs. She’s practically out there every day.

Sorry so long….just wanted to paint the picture that you can absolutely do it. Just takes a lot of time and energy.

Oh yeah…need to figure something out about her going in heat with those other dogs. They will find a way to get to her and she will get that itch to wander. Please consider not spaying early for it can cause health issues for young females.

Good luck and welcome from Louisiana.

Thanks for you thoughts! Yes, we got her rabies shot today and I spoke with the vet about the unaltered male nextdoor. He said it was best to have her fixed early. I don’t want her to wander, nor do I want to encourage the aggressive-ish male over to our property. We are also going to do a gastroplexy (sp?) at the same time to help prevent bloat.

I am very willing to put in the hours to train her! I do not however wish to do bite work or protection training. I don’t want to encourage her nature with little ones at home. So far it has worked out wonderfully. She very smart! So many people have commented that she is the most laid back Dobe they have ever seen. (Granted maybe they are all like this at 14 weeks???) My 11 year-old jokes that maybe we got a broken one!

 

[Ravenbird]

I guess you’re right…I can’t have this dog be a true guard dog and a friendly, family dog that loves everyone. I think I will change my response to a loving family dog that is protective. Honestly, since we live so far out in the country my husband doesn’t want her to like anyone, except us. I would like her to be cautious of everyone we have over. Hopefully by seeing us warmly welcome someone, she will be more welcoming to them as well.

It also depends on your individual dog. Many Dobermans are not as reactive to strangers as others. Mine is way over what I expected. We have just a small handful of neighbors and one couple was the first to come over and see her when I got my puppy. She was maybe 11 weeks old. She growled at them. She gave them the stink eye. I asked them just to sit and talk to us and ignore the puppy until she adjusted to their presence (I had her on a leash). After a bit she was totally ok with them. Now at 3.5 years, if she sees them approaching the yard gate (they usually walk over to visit) she still explodes, hairs up, growls & mumbles until they come right up to her and then she goes: oh, sorry, I thought maybe you weren't who I thought you were... then she's just as happy & content with them as she can be. Which is actually how she is with someone she's NEVER met before. Biggest display of "get off my property" that you've ever seen, then when we accept them, she's fine. But even with extensive training, I still use the e-collar if she doesn't shut down when I tell her to. There are many many Dobes that don't have this reactivity and I'd say most don't make much of a scene at all. If your puppy was bred for bite work and a strong will, then you will see these traits. Some lines of show dogs have a bit of spit fire, but for the most part, show & pet bred Dobermans will be a bit softer.

He said it was best to have her fixed early. I don’t want her to wander, nor do I want to encourage the aggressive-ish male over to our property. We are also going to do a gastroplexy (sp?) at the same time to help prevent bloat.

Please read up on spaying before 12 - 18 months. It changes more than just their ability to get pregnant in their growing years. I'd recommend waiting until she is at least 12 months so that her bones grow correctly, but then you'd have to deal with the neighbors dog. Ugh.

 

[Tizpear]

As far as people coming up in your yard? I would not deter her from barking or being aggressive to unwanted strangers. That’s what I want mine to do. But they also need to recognize to be disciplined about it and look to me for the next step. You checking to see what the stimulus is and then saying, “oh that’s just Betty from down the road- good girl for warning me but it’s okay, I got it”….you checked the danger, looked at her and assured her it was okay. What’s tough is when you hear this and have to get up out of bed at 2am to check and see what the noise is- is a good thing.

But again, it all goes back to discipline and obedience- imo.

YES! Thank you for this!! Another person replied and said I need to teach her to be neutral and to look to me for my response 1st. I LOVE this!! I have since told my husband when she gets barking with her hair up and such, to recall her and have her sit between our legs. I have then started holding her collar and saying “it’s okay” or saying nothing at all.

For example, a car drove past the other day, she started barking. She was in her longline, so I recalled her, had her sit with my hand on her collar and said “it’s okay. It’s just a car.” She seemed fine. Yesterday, (AND THIS WAS SO COOL!!!) my 2 year-old and I were walked up from our back pond on our trails. We were walking uphill and you can’t see what’s up top. She started going nuts. Again, I recalled her on her longline, held her collar, but didn’t say anything. We all just stopped and waited. (Honestly, I didn’t see or hear anything AND it could have easily just been a butterfly!) But with my husband out of town and just me and my little one, we waited. I said “okay,” but not a happy okay. We continued to walk uphill. She would bark and growl, run 10 feet in front of us, stop herself, then run back and walk between my son and I still while growling. She continued to do this and I allowed it off and on until we got to the top of the hill and we could all see there was nothing there. I was so impressed that she would run ahead, then come back to check on the both of us, by walking inbetween us multiple times in a row. I have had dogs my entire life (either a labs or mutts). They would usually bark like mad next to me, then hide behind me. I have never had a dog charge ahead, then come back to guard me. I was very impressed!

Don’t know if I am encouraging her behavior right (please say so if I am missing something or doing something wrong!), but I was WOWED!!

 

[Rits]

He said it was best to have her fixed early.

Quite untrue actually! Early spay causes a host more issues than waiting. The main one is they aren't developed yet! Dobermans don't mature until 2-3 years old. My girl is turning 3 at the end of the month and her chest didn't fully drop until this last heat cycle over the winter. I think she's had about 5-6 cycles now. They need those hormones for growth. I'd try waiting until at least 2... Once you go through a few heat cycles you realize it's no big deal and a part of owning a dog. Mine aren't outside longer than to go potty anyways. If they are, then I'm out there too. Other issues you have to worry about with early spay/neuter is increased risk of cancer, hip dysplasia, acl ccl tears, juvenile incontinence.

 

[Ravenbird]

Now for the reason everyone is commenting on this thread. The whole “protective” part. This without a doubt is the most unrealistically romanticized aspect of our beloved breed. I would say 99% of the situations that we humans describe as protective events. Are rooted in fear at the most fundamental level. That being said in practical terms it isn’t that simple and it is definitely on a spectrum. And for sake of keeping this as short as possible I’m going to use the term “suspicion” to describe this behavior.

Truth! Thank you for explaining this with your part 1 & part 2 stories. You said it well. Your Stassie and the overnight guest is like what I was saying about Asha and any guest we have over. They could have been here a dozen times, but she still treats them like a masked bandit. I'm like "I can't believe a dog this intelligent cannot seem to *remember* who is a regular guest". But I don't think it's remembering anything, it's hard core suspicions toward anybody coming into their space. Just because they were here yesterday doesn't make them *OK* today.

 

[Tizpear]

It also depends on your individual dog. Many Dobermans are not as reactive to strangers as others. Mine is way over what I expected. We have just a small handful of neighbors and one couple was the first to come over and see her when I got my puppy. She was maybe 11 weeks old. She growled at them. She gave them the stink eye. I asked them just to sit and talk to us and ignore the puppy until she adjusted to their presence (I had her on a leash). After a bit she was totally ok with them. Now at 3.5 years, if she sees them approaching the yard gate (they usually walk over to visit) she still explodes, hairs up, growls & mumbles until they come right up to her and then she goes: oh, sorry, I thought maybe you weren't who I thought you were... then she's just as happy & content with them as she can be. Which is actually how she is with someone she's NEVER met before. Biggest display of "get off my property" that you've ever seen, then when we accept them, she's fine. But even with extensive training, I still use the e-collar if she doesn't shut down when I tell her to. There are many many Dobes that don't have this reactivity and I'd say most don't make much of a scene at all. If your puppy was bred for bite work and a strong will, then you will see these traits. Some lines of show dogs have a bit of spit fire, but for the most part, show & pet bred Dobermans will be a bit softer.

Please read up on spaying before 12 - 18 months. It changes more than just their ability to get pregnant in their growing years. I'd recommend waiting until she is at least 12 months so that her bones grow correctly, but then you'd have to deal with the neighbors dog. Ugh.

 

[Tizpear]

Ok, I will definitely look more into delaying her getting spayed. I have read so many things that go either way. More research, here I come!!

Quick question and a bit off topic…Do most people who own Dobes use ecollars? Like, do you HAVE to? (I see a bunch of people on a bunch of different sites and platforms have ecollars of theirs.) A trainer I was looking at will ONLY do a board and train with an ecollar. (Not that I am looking for a board and train- just was going through his website. I kind of thought, “well, maybe he isn’t that good of a trainer then.” Please know that I mean NO disrespect to you or your training for using one. It’s just a question since I have never used one before.

My cousin said I HAD to use a prong collar to train Jolene. She is still a baby and doing very well on a leash, so as for now there is no need. She said her trainer stated that “training a dog without a prong collar is like training a horse without a bridle. Granted my cousin’s dog a golden retriever 6 month old male that is learning dock diving with a high drive. (Don’t know if that makes a difference or not.)

Thanks again for all your input!!

 

[Rits]

A trainer I was looking at will ONLY do a board and train with an ecollar.

I agree with you to be hesitant of any trainer that feels they can't train without one. An ecollar is simply a tool. I personally don't use ecollars until the dog knows what you are asking of it, and ONLY if they need it. For 99% of your training needs, they don't need it and honestly if you work through it and teach them and reward what you want FIRST then you will have a far better trained dog that does something because they want to, not because they are being complied to. I always use an ecollar for offleash work in uncontrolled environments (not at trial). It is like wearing a seatbelt. I would never ride in a car without one on, for my and others safety. Same goes for my offleash dog. At the end of the day, they are dogs and can make mistakes, even with a great recall!

I would look into taking multiple obedience classes on your own through a club. Board and trains are iffy, there seem to be fewer reliable ones. Really training the dog is only part of the battle, the rest is training the human!

I HAD to use a prong collar to train Jolene. She is still a baby and doing very well on a leash, so as for now there is no need.

No, you don't have to use a prong collar to teach them how to heel or even loose leash walk. A prong collar can help reinforce what you have taught, especially in situations where you need more control like a highly distracting environment. But again, its to backup what you have already trained. You are right, she is a baby! I don't feel its right to correct what she doesn't know 100%. I would do way more rewarding for being at your side for short periods, then have a release word to allow breaks and rewards to freely sniff, then back at your side again with lots of food reward for a few steps and build on that. Heeling and recall are what I'd call, for life skills. Hardest but probably the two most important skills to master. You never stop rewarding and reinforcing it.

 

[Kaiser2016]

I always use an ecollar for offleash work in uncontrolled environments (not at trial). It is like wearing a seatbelt.

Just like a seatbelt! You don't expect to use it, but you have it on just in case. For the longest time I thought we could get away with not using an ecollar, but eventually got one for the 'just in case' moments. I will say that once maturity kicks in, you will hardly ever have to use the ecollar, but Dobes are collar wise and knowing that they are wearing it helps to prevent them from doing crazy things. Kaiser is at the point where if he sees my husband reach for the remote, he will already turn back to him. BUT, in order for him to see that, he has to be looking to his master first - that comes with regular training and teaching the Dobe to focus on you. So, an ecollar really only enforces what a dog already knows. It's not a shortcut, that's for sure.

I also agree that dog parks aren't necessary. Imagine if someone dropped you off at a party and you had to mingle with everyone! It would be stressful! I'm sure some laid back breeds enjoy it, but a Doberman is a people dog (his OWN people!) and will sadly get blamed if a fight breaks out and then what? It's not worth the risk.

I have never had a dog charge ahead, then come back to guard me. I was very impressed!

What a great story! Every time I see Kaiser do something like this, it makes me feel like all the chaos and mayhem he's brought into my life has been worth it

 

[Ravenbird]

I agree with both the statements above regarding e- and prong collars. I just want to say that I had two Dobermans before my current one and they trained like pre-loaded robots without a hitch. I had no doubt that all the people whining about their Dobermans simply didn't know how to train, didn't know the basics, blah blah blah. Then I got my 3rd Doberman, purposefully looking for a harder dog for bite sports and toughness, and boy did I get what I asked for. She's not bad, she's just not like anything I ever experienced. Sass back, make-me, pull like a freight train, explosive barking etc etc. Literally blood (mine, not hers!), sweat and lots and lots of tears. I ate a lot of humble pie, thinking all those people who had to resort to e-collars and prong collars just didn't have the right finesse. And then when I did use them, I thought soon enough I could wean off of them. Nope. I can to a certain extent. I have to do without them to trial, and I train a lot without them to prepare for that. But like @Kaiser2016 says - collar wise is a thing. If Asha is just being belligerent and refusing to settle, I can put the e-collar on without even turning it on, not even picking up the remote, all of a sudden she turns off all the BS. I'm not proud that that's how it is, but I won't apologize for it either. It all comes down to training the dog in front of you, whatever it takes. There are easy dogs and tough dogs and a whole lot of in between. Chances are you can go far without either tool.

A trainer I was looking at will ONLY do a board and train with an ecollar.

There are many trainers now who use the collars not as a corrective tool, but as a marker, using a very very low stimulation or just the vibration. It's just yet another way of training. I don't know about the one you were looking at, but the way you phrase it, it sounds like a training method for a marker, not that they would use it for punishment.

What @Rits said - do as much luring and rewarding with food as you can while your puppy is young. I fed half my dogs breakfast out of my hand, but it wasn't until she was almost a year old before I learned about this. Wish I'd started before I put a leash on. You can prevent tons of bad habits if you can get the dog to focus on you and be happy to focus on you.

 

[EricA]

Honestly, since we live so far out in the country my husband doesn’t want her to like anyone, except us. I would like her to be cautious of everyone we have over. Hopefully by seeing us warmly welcome someone, she will be more welcoming to them as well.

Your husband has good reasons for that. I tend to fall in that same boat with respect to people I want to allow my girls around and allow them to get 'comfortable' with. Better safe than sorry.

Reading all of your replies here - I am fairly confident you are going to be able to sort out anything that comes your way.

 

[EricA]

Quick question and a bit off topic…Do most people who own Dobes use ecollars? Like, do you HAVE to? (

Hell no.

Same for the 'trainers' depending on their bag of treats to make their dogs do what they want.

Neither is 'required' and there are plenty of us that do not generally use either regularly.

There will never come a day when I 'need' a darn hot dog bit to get one of my girls to do what I ask them.

In that same respect - There will never come a day when some fool thinks they can walk up and pull a hot dog bit out of their pocket and have my girls listen to THEM. Not going to happen...

 

[JanS]

I have only put the e-collar on our dogs if we're going for a hike in the woods where there may be distractions or if we go to the lake where we could run into other dogs in the woods.

I honestly haven't even had a prong on Elroy yet since he's been good on a flat collar and the most we've used is a slip lead when we went to Lowe's a few weeks ago. I know that can and probably will change drastically with time and as he matures but he has not been a puller like our others have been.

 

[Kswoodssue]

I would just add, KNOW YOUR DOG. Train your dog, yes, but love your dog too. Just as each child is different, even from the same parents, so too is each dog an individual. If we are to set our pups up for success, and a happy, healthy life, then we must understand who they are as individuals. If I have a reactive, aggressive dog, then I may very well have a fearful dog, who can be a lot more dangerous than a dog professionally trained for defense. …and btw, I did have kids, and a Doberteen is a lot easier than their human counterparts on most days! Good luck!

 

[Ravenbird]

I would just add, KNOW YOUR DOG. Train your dog, yes, but love your dog too.

^^^ All this ^^^ I think we get our puppies with an ideal dog in mind. In my case it didn't take long to realize I didn't get the perfect puppy that I had envisioned, and my training which resulted in two perfect dogs in my past wasn't working. Then following the suggestions of the PP trainer in my AKC group, things really started going south. I was trying to "give it time", "let her grow out of this stage" etc. But my biggest problem was having to admit that I had a puppy who challenged me. She wasn't so much bad as just stubborn and willful. I felt like a failure because she required stronger tools that I never thought I would need. The reason I suggest these tools to people with problem puppies/young dogs especially, is that if I had been a little more willing to admit that my training wasn't working and that in fact much of my "give it time" ideas were doing more harm than good. (((When you do the same thing over & over and expect new results))) All that said, YES, I love this dog with all my heart. She has taught me more than I knew I needed to know. She's absolutely the best thing that ever happened to me. We love each other fiercely and without question.