Question on socialization

[Tizpear]

Hi All! This is going to be a LONG one, sorry!

I have a 14 week-old female. She’s awesome! She goes everywhere with me that I can take her, including school drop offs and pick ups. She is fantastic with my 7 kids, ages 20 to 2. Loves our 3 cats…perhaps a bit too much for the cats’ liking! Great when the kids have friends over & plays with the neighbors.

My question is about socialization. She is starting to bark at cars & “baby growl” as they pass the house. Now here’s the kicker…we live on 19 acres in the country. We got a Doberman b/c my husband travels a lot. We have a nice home that sits back off the road with a huge 1/2 circle driveway. We have had all kinds of random people stopping at our house. Some are curious b/c the house was abandoned for 5-6 years before we bought it & we are fixing it up. (It’s a huge 8000+ square feet home and it’s being brought back to life, so I do understand people’s curiosity.) HOWEVER, we have also had people driving slowly up our driveway at all hours of the night, up to 2am! I have seen them in the cameras stop at the front door, open their car door, shut it and continue on. The last one was after 11pm and a woman got out and was looking through our front windows!! We have a driveway alarm, security system, cameras, etc. With my husband traveling a lot, we decided a Dobe would be an extra layer of protection.

Back to my socialization question…do I necessarily want to discourage her from barking at cars passing by?? She will be a working guard dog for us. I am already seeing a bit of her personality come thru. Our only neighbor just moved in 5ish weeks ago & is backyard breeding labs. They currently have 3 full grown ones and 2 20ish week old pups. We never see the pups, but the larger dogs meander over once a day or so unsupervised. My dog doesn’t want to play with these big dogs. In fact, the neighbor has said his male can be aggressive until he gets to know you, but doesn’t think he would hurt anyone. (Whatever that means…)

So, when one of these or multiple of the big dogs wander over, I have seen my 14 week old pup, charge towards them, barking & growling with her hair up. She stops way before she gets to them though. I have even seen her run and stand in front of my 5 year-old daughter and start barking and growling at the dogs. I don’t know if her protective instincts are coming out, but she does know who her human littermates are. Here’s my other socialization question…How do I get her to like other dogs and feel safe around them? I get she doesn’t like these dogs wandering over, but my dad and brother have dogs. When they visit from out of state, I would like for them to get along.

Again, I don’t necessarily want to discourage my pup from barking at the neighbors’ dogs WHEN THEY WANDER ONTO MY PROPERTY. I have 2,5,7, & 11 year-old kids that are always playing outside. I like that the dog will protect my kiddos, BUT I also don’t want her to “eat” the neighbors’ dogs as grows into a full size guardian.

I just don’t know if I am allowing a monster to occur. I do tell her, “It’s okay. That’s just Beasley.” (or insert another one of the dogs’names), so she knows I’m okay with the dog. However, I don’t pet the dog & my pup does not want to play with them.

I haven’t taken her to a dog park b/c I live in the sticks in the south and everyone has warned me it’s all untrained Pits (nothing against the breed- just the untrained part) and disease ridden. She just got her last shots last week, too. Plus, I’m not taking my 2 year-old there, if that’s how it is. I have a trainer lined up for her, but it’s one on one by a man that is a police officer and trains k9 dogs, so not with other pups. There is no Petsmart or Petco here within an hour radius that does puppy classes.

Sorry for the long post, but I just want to make sure I am raising her right. I don’t want her to be aggressive when she’s older, but I do need her to guard my kids and myself. I have been working with her and she knows sit, stay, come & leave-it…when she wants to!

Here’s a pic of her and one of our cats…just because!

 

[Two Dobes]

I am certain that others will chime in...I would be having a fit with all those people wandering up to your property in the middle of the night!!! I feel you are doing the right thing when it comes to letting her mature into what you need in a protection dog....these guys do this naturally, and she sounds like she is fitting right in.

I personally do not like dog parks, I don't feel my dogs need friends. I understand you wanting her to get along with your family's dog when they visit, but think that is something you can work on when they come. Not sure where you live, but if your neighbor's dog is on your property and your dog attacks it; your dog is not at fault (at least not where I live)

Do you have a Lowe's or Home Depot or Tractor Supply? Many of them allow pets on leash, and you could take her there, not to 'nose to nose' with any other dog, but do some focus games with her there when another dog is in the store, or just have her focus on you while in there in general....a way to get her accustom to other dogs, but does not need to be friends with them.

The fact that you take her everywhere with you is great 'socialization' because she is being exposed to all types of enviornments, noises, people coming and going. Your house & kids will always be the place that she is on guard, which is a great thing.

 

[Ravenbird]

Sounds very much like my situation - remote place in the forest, few neighbors, Doberman who barks at anything out of the ordinary.

My first advice is to fence your property, or at least from the house to the end of the driveway if you have more acres than you can fence. Good fences make good neighbors. You will never be sorry. Neighbor dogs in your own yard WILL be a problem. Your dog in their yard might be worse. Your dog will have her first heat at about 7 - 8 months of age, you do not want or need an extra headache of the neighbor dogs visiting and you for SURE don't want your dog bred by them. Also a gate at the end of the driveway will prevent cars from driving up. What are those people thinking?!

You pup sounds like a typical good Doberman. Family is family and anyone/anything else is to be alerted on. Your police k9 friend should make a good trainer. It's not to early to get started. You can start right now with fun games that involve basic obedience: sit, down, stay and recall. When she learns those, it's much easier to relay to her when to quit barking/growling. Instead of just telling her "no, it's ok", you tell her to recall back to you and lay down. Obviously until she gets the obedience, that isn't an option... The socialization term most of us go by here is not to be social, but to be neutral to strangers and strangers dogs. When you do take her to public places she should not growl or bark at people/dogs, nor should she want to run up and play with them. I'm very much opposed to dog parks, just not a good idea.

 

[Cferg]

I agree with everyone that obedience is mandatory. So I would start on that sooner than later.
But just out of curiosity and for discussion sake. What are you envisioning as your dream Doberman dog? In regards to sociability out in public and at home with guests in your house.

 

[EricA]

Sounds very much like my situation - remote place in the forest, few neighbors, Doberman who barks at anything out of the ordinary.

My first advice is to fence your property, or at least from the house to the end of the driveway if you have more acres than you can fence. Good fences make good neighbors. You will never be sorry. Neighbor dogs in your own yard WILL be a problem. Your dog in their yard might be worse. Your dog will have her first heat at about 7 - 8 months of age, you do not want or need an extra headache of the neighbor dogs visiting and you for SURE don't want your dog bred by them. Also a gate at the end of the driveway will prevent cars from driving up. What are those people thinking?!

At bare MINIMUM a pole on either side of the driveway set up so a heavy duty cable can be easily strung between them to stop the cars from coming down the driveway. (obviously placed well BEHIND the NO TRESPASSING signs)

The neighbor would get a single polite warning about their dogs on my property before things got ugly. The last neighbor I had that tried that garbage with me - I cost them so much money in citations that they broke their lease and MOVED to get far away from me. If there was no animal control available to issues them those citations their dog would have wound up missing. Known as Shoot, Shovel, and Shut up here in the south.

 

[Tizpear]

I am certain that others will chime in...I would be having a fit with all those people wandering up to your property in the middle of the night!!! I feel you are doing the right thing when it comes to letting her mature into what you need in a protection dog....these guys do this naturally, and she sounds like she is fitting right in.

I personally do not like dog parks, I don't feel my dogs need friends. I understand you wanting her to get along with your family's dog when they visit, but think that is something you can work on when they come. Not sure where you live, but if your neighbor's dog is on your property and your dog attacks it; your dog is not at fault (at least not where I live)

Do you have a Lowe's or Home Depot or Tractor Supply? Many of them allow pets on leash, and you could take her there, not to 'nose to nose' with any other dog, but do some focus games with her there when another dog is in the store, or just have her focus on you while in there in general....a way to get her accustom to other dogs, but does not need to be friends with them.

The fact that you take her everywhere with you is great 'socialization' because she is being exposed to all types of enviornments, noises, people coming and going. Your house & kids will always be the place that she is on guard, which is a great thing.

Hi again! I have taken her to all those places and a pet stores…no other dogs have been there at the times we go!

She did go with me to my son’s little league game last night. (Haven’t taken her for a while bc too many comments about her ears… People can be rude.) Anyways, she was great! Loved on the 10+ kids that loved on her. Same with adults. Another family with a dog behind us kept barking at her and she would bark back occasionally until I distracted her with a chew or toy.
A lady w/ a standard poodle wandered over and asked if she liked dogs. I said “I don’t know!” At 1st Jolene barked and tried to hide behind me, then she went into a play stance! After a few mins, I made her sit down and be done though…people were there to see their kids play and not at dog park!

Thanks again for the thoughts on dog parks. I really feel the same way. As far as the neighbor’s dogs, I would hate to think of them fighting. Especially if my dog got hurt or my kids were there. They are nice enough folks…just not the brightest.

 

[Tizpear]

I agree with everyone that obedience is mandatory. So I would start on that sooner than later.
But just out of curiosity and for discussion sake. What are you envisioning as your dream Doberman dog? In regards to sociability out in public and at home with guests in your house.

Good question and I hadn’t thought about this!! I want a dog my kids and I can love on. A dog we can go running around on our property with that will chase the four-wheelers when older. (Now she rides slowly on it with my husband.) One that will always be with us. If we’re swimming, she’s laying there with us, or jumping in the pool if she decides to be a swimmer. If we are by the fire roasting marshmallows, she’s right there. I also want one that hears a noise at night and sounds like she wants to eat someone. A dog that sees a REAL threat and protects my children. (Not the UPS man. However, she likes him. I think she know he makes me happy dropping off my Amazon packages!) A dog that my 7 yr-old, who is very introverted compared to my other kids, can tell all his secrets to and share his bed when she’s older.

We are pretty much homebodies, but always busy around the house and property. This is how we picked a Dobe. A fierce, loving family dog, active to keep up with all of the kids, and force me to be a bit more active. A dog who will be loyal to the family and not want to run away, like all the strays out here in the country. A dog that truly wants to be with their owners Oh, and a dog that will scare the bejesus out of an intruder…even if that means she secretly a scaredy cat!

 

[EricA]

As far as the neighbor’s dogs, I would hate to think of them fighting. Especially if my dog got hurt or my kids were there. They are nice enough folks…just not the brightest.

It is very difficult to train a dog to work both ways. Do you want a guard dog to protect your property or a dog that is friendly to anyone and everything they come across no matter what or where it is?

You did say - "She will be a working guard dog for us".



Example: Back when I had Mojo (single dog family at the time and female Doberman) my boys were 8 and 10yrs old. That dog got regularly rewarded for keeping crap out of my yard. She picked up on that really, really fast but was as gentle as could be with everyone in our family - people that were 'supposed' to be there and that were there every day. Very protective of her family.

Went to take her pee one day and about the time we got to the front part of the house where she could see the entire front yard she bolted off to the side in full tilt boogie 'I am about to get that ass mode' after something she saw.

I was not far behind her and got to see myself what was going on as soon as I rounded the corner and saw that the older son was standing up and pulling off his ski mask. Mojo was less than 10 feet away from him at that point and 'realized' who exactly it was about the same time I did and was clearly slamming on her brakes...

The boys were playing 'cops and robbers' outside (this was back in the old days when kids actually played outside instead of on their phones). The son with the ski mask on was the 'robber' that time and had been hiding behind a bush about to spring on his brother before the dog saw him and charged, ready for a fight with an trespasser / intruder. (no, the boys did not inform me they were playing this sort of game out there prior to the potty break)

Kids eyes got big as pie plates when he saw his own dog charge him like that. From that point on he had an entirely different level of respect for that dog. If the dog had not seen him take off that ski mask when he did (and before she got there) it would have not been a good thing for the disguised son.

Little kids and guard dogs at the same time are about as hard as it gets as far as home training is concerned. Not so much because of the dog but because of the kids and how kids are.

You have to train them ALL at the same time.

 

[Ddski5]

No dog parks unless you are working on discipline and dog reactivity by working/training/playing OUTSIDE of the fenced park. If you need more info on how that works, just ask.

Your dilemma….friendly and social or a guard dog? Hmmm…not that easy imo, but you can have both but it takes a shitload of time, energy and training.

I believe the vital backbone of a having a great Doberman is discipline/obedience. You have this and you can pretty much call the ball Maverick (call your own shots). I say this because the amount of time, energy and training put forth creates such a tight personal bond between you and her that she should always look to you before acting- unless it’s purely instinctual and she is out of sight unsupervised (which will not and should not happen with a velcro Doberman).

My fence is currently down because of past hurricane- actively building it back up now. We have a Catahoula cur with right neighbors that ALWAYS comes in our yard. The left neighbor has a Rott mix and a beautiful pound yellow shepherd (gorgeous). I’ve done extensive training with both of my Dobermans with the prong and ECollar. I only use the prong if in public and I pretty much use the ECollar everyday since our fence has been down.

Freyja 2.5yrs, CANNOT stand for any other dogs to be in our yard. She knows and plays with the other dogs from time to time but the next day? If the cur comes in our yard? Freyja is not happy at all and will bolt out there and bum rush the cur with ferocity. Ragnar- 5yr male? Ehhh not too concerned really, he watches me to see how reactive I am to the situation. If I am upset and using a strong loud voice then he can get pretty active.

I think you can absolutely have your dream Doberman to protect, be friendly, be social, etc….but it’s gonna take a shatload of YOUR time, energy, persistence and patience. I did it everyday after work for approx one hour for 12-15months until I felt Ragnar and Freyja were confident and disciplined. My next door left neighbor is currently doing it with her two pound dogs and is being extremely successful. She also has three little girls that join in too. Very impressed with her fortitude to have disciplined dogs. She’s practically out there every day.

Sorry so long….just wanted to paint the picture that you can absolutely do it. Just takes a lot of time and energy.

Oh yeah…need to figure something out about her going in heat with those other dogs. They will find a way to get to her and she will get that itch to wander. Please consider not spaying early for it can cause health issues for young females.

Good luck and welcome from Louisiana.

 

[Ddski5]

As far as people coming up in your yard? I would not deter her from barking or being aggressive to unwanted strangers. That’s what I want mine to do. But they also need to recognize to be disciplined about it and look to me for the next step. You checking to see what the stimulus is and then saying, “oh that’s just Betty from down the road- good girl for warning me but it’s okay, I got it”….you checked the danger, looked at her and assured her it was okay. What’s tough is when you hear this and have to get up out of bed at 2am to check and see what the noise is- is a good thing.

But again, it all goes back to discipline and obedience- imo.

 

[Ravenbird]

^^^ every word that @Ddski5 said ^^^

 

[EricA]

Mental note to self:

Always ask dog park haters if they send their kids to public schools and then ask them to explain which is potentially WORSE and why.

 

[Ravenbird]

I don't hate dog parks (I just won't advise using one), and I don't have kids, so I'm not sure if I qualify to answer your inquiry. I have a background in animal behavior and it is common knowledge that one experience by an aggressive dog toward a neutral dog - especially a young dog - not even a fight, just a serious threat to frighten the innocent dog - can make that dog dog-aggressive for life. Then there's the damaging fights that cost a visit to the vet, and throw in a chance of human injuries to those trying to break up a fight. The parks are there for anyone who wishes to use them, I have no objections. But the fairy tale scenes of dogs playing happily together is not 100% of the story. My dog is 100% my life and to turn her loose amongst unknown dogs who may play or may attack??? What kind of crapshoot is that? Why on Gods green earth would I subject my dog to that? Go to dog parks if that's what you want to do, I don't mind. I just personally won't ever be here saying "what a great idea"!

Here's a start:

Dog Parks Are the WORST.

Supervised off-leash play with a well-trained expert is a great experience for a dog. Dog parks are not.

overdalekennel.com

The State of Public Dog Parks Across The United States.

 

[DD4MSpock]

I definitely like the idea of taking my dog to different places and let them be exposed to different things, people, etc. I guess I was under the incorrect assumption that "socialization" was limited to exposing them to different dog packs, etc. in order for them to become "used" to them.

Which would have brought up this question: "How easy/difficult is it for a dobie owner to be accepted by a socialization group (most likely at a park, etc.)?" I would have thought that it's a lot more difficult to find a socialization group that would accept dobermans into the group... unless it's a group of all dobermans (or like dogs like Rotties, etc.). That's one of the questions I would need to resolve before I become an owner again. Where can I socialize my dobie (i.e. where they'd be accepted), if not a separate dobie social group?

And, yeah, I agree about parks. At least in my sub-division. there are walking paths that even have "waste collection" stations with bags. But I'd be worried about letting my dobie unleashed in a park, even if it's gated/secured. One never knows when some "person.." (yeah, that's the PC word) will leave the gate open.

 

[Ddski5]

The parish (town/city) put in a dog park about 150yards off my back fence line. Every weekend and sometimes during the week I hear kids and dogs playing back there- an absolute wonderful sound….but inevitably, give it a little time, there is a loud screeching sound, dog growling/barking and then another dog yelping and crying.
Happens a lot. Kids crying, people mad at each other…

Too many unknowns for me to take Ragnar/Freyja into a dog park.

BUT….excellent training environment opportunity outside the fence

 

[Cferg]

Good question and I hadn’t thought about this!! I want a dog my kids and I can love on. A dog we can go running around on our property with that will chase the four-wheelers when older. (Now she rides slowly on it with my husband.) One that will always be with us. If we’re swimming, she’s laying there with us, or jumping in the pool if she decides to be a swimmer. If we are by the fire roasting marshmallows, she’s right there. I also want one that hears a noise at night and sounds like she wants to eat someone. A dog that sees a REAL threat and protects my children. (Not the UPS man. However, she likes him. I think she know he makes me happy dropping off my Amazon packages!) A dog that my 7 yr-old, who is very introverted compared to my other kids, can tell all his secrets to and share his bed when she’s older.

We are pretty much homebodies, but always busy around the house and property. This is how we picked a Dobe. A fierce, loving family dog, active to keep up with all of the kids, and force me to be a bit more active. A dog who will be loyal to the family and not want to run away, like all the strays out here in the country. A dog that truly wants to be with their owners Oh, and a dog that will scare the bejesus out of an intruder…even if that means she secretly a scaredy cat!

Sounds like you have a classically ideal vision of your perfect Doberman. My dog as a whole would fit your vision almost to a T.
But I’ll give you some of the “behind the scenes glimpses” of what some of these attributes are actually like to live with. I’ll try to go in order of things that you described on your reply.
My kids have ATVs and a couple of sxs’s. Stassi will chase them but, exactly that chase them and try to bite anything she can get her mouth on person or machine. Though she will ride on them with no issues. If I’m not on a machine I have to engage with her meaning tug or fetch to satiate the prey stimulation. It’s taken about two years of shaping the desired behavior
for her to be okay with my kids riding their bikes and not biting. She will now unsupervised, go find something to naw on like a crackhead as she watches them ride bikes. The quads are still way too stimulating for her.
Swimming is similar to the quads. Someone has to be doing a game of fetch with her in the pool. Other wise somebody might catch some teeth to the forehead or face while swimming. These are the ugly truths of owning a flashy, snappy obedience, high drive dog. At almost 3 years old it still isn’t quite the Disney scene of a noble dog watching over the children in the backyard. Haha

I wanted to break my response into two posts. so I’ll give my thoughts on the protective aspect in the second part.

 

[EricA]

I don't hate dog parks (I just won't advise using one), and I don't have kids, so I'm not sure if I qualify to answer your inquiry. I have a background in animal behavior and it is common knowledge that one experience by an aggressive dog toward a neutral dog - especially a young dog - not even a fight, just a serious threat to frighten the innocent dog - can make that dog dog-aggressive for life. Then there's the damaging fights that cost a visit to the vet, and throw in a chance of human injuries to those trying to break up a fight. The parks are there for anyone who wishes to use them, I have no objections. But the fairy tale scenes of dogs playing happily together is not 100% of the story. My dog is 100% my life and to turn her loose amongst unknown dogs who may play or may attack??? What kind of crapshoot is that? Why on Gods green earth would I subject my dog to that? Go to dog parks if that's what you want to do, I don't mind. I just personally won't ever be here saying "what a great idea"!

Here's a start:

Dog Parks Are the WORST.

Supervised off-leash play with a well-trained expert is a great experience for a dog. Dog parks are not.

overdalekennel.com

The State of Public Dog Parks Across The United States.

Dog parks are not nearly the 'only' place where bad experiences with other dogs and other owners can happen. Not by a long shot.

That thread I recently did about the dog from across the street at work that ran up on me and the girls is one example,

Several times over the last handful of years I have had owners intentionally let their fidos loose when I was out walking my girls in the neighborhood here so they could 'see what would happen',

Had a fido jump out of a passing cars side window and run at us once while we were in a PetCo parking lot...

I could go on and on about idiot owners and idiot dogs that ran up on us at places that were NOT the dog park.

Had a long discussion with the local Police the last time an idiot here let their pitt loose on us in the neighborhood. (ohh yes, I called the cops on that idiot owner) Those officers went out of their way to take their time and properly explain to me EXACTLY how to deal with such problems and NOT get in any trouble with the law. After they got done explaining things to ME they went and told the owner what THEY would do if his loose pitt ever ran up on THEM in a threatening manner. That guy learned really fast to use a leash and control his dog once the potential consequences were explained to him.

Depends on the size of the dog and the perceived 'threat' in how I am willing to deal with any problems that do occur. I do stay prepared and aware regardless of where I happen to be at because stuff can and does happen. That is called life.


The part I bolded above - Not buying any of that. Not letting a dog be a dog and actually interact with other dogs is exactly how you end up with a pampered dog that 'can't' interact with other dogs.

Read the thread I posted about the dog from across the street at work aggressively running up on us and notice how my girls reacted. (They remained calm and waited to see what it was going to actually DO which ended up being nothing)

No running away in fear, no instant going into attack mode. My girls were waiting for it to do something actually aggressive or for ME to tell them that they needed to do something. Considering that that particular neighbor lady was somewhat good looking AND single, and that her dog was ultimately not 'really' aggressive (her dog was bluffing) - There was no need to escalate anything there.

Had it been actually aggressive (trying to bite one of my girls), due to its size and the 2 on one thing - I would have possibly (again - that neighbor lady IS cute AND single which is why I say 'possibly' here) told the girls to get it and that 'fight' would have been over really fast. Neighbor dog would have most likely changed her attitude after only a very few slight squeezes. Doubt any skin would have even been broken for the girls to get their message across to her.

Some dogs 'play' rough. Some breeds of dogs tend to 'play' a little more rough than others. That 'playing' is how they learn about bite inhibition. They can be playing rough together and looking and sounding like they are being really aggressive but not using any pressure whatsoever. It is a game to them. They learn really fast that if they squeeze too hard that the other dog(s) will not be happy (a yelp usually) and the 'game' will be over.

Those dog are NOT fighting. They are 'playing' grab ass and not about to use any actual pressure to hurt one of their buddies. Unless they need to signal to one or the other that they are getting out of line and that they need to ease up!

Up there in my list of 'best advice I ever got' with respect to raising littermates was from a vet behaviorist that shared a video at DVM360 about owners causing problems in multi-dog households thru interference. Making things worse with interference and not allowing dogs to be dogs...

 

[Doberman Gang]

Mental note to self:

Always ask dog park haters if they send their kids to public schools and then ask them to explain which is potentially WORSE and why.

I think it would be more like taking your kid to a sketchy part of town and dropping them off to play with kids they don’t know. Not to say a kid can’t have a bad experience at a public school, but there are rules and teachers to enforce those rules. Our kids also have an understanding and can be told what to expect and how to react I certain situations. School is also for learning things whether it is in the class room or how to deal with being out in public around different people. Dogs don’t need to interact with strangers or their dogs, it’s not necessary. So yes, a dog park is far worse than a public school in my opinion. You can’t explain to your dog what may or may not happen while at the dog park, so they can be very stressful for some dogs. Stress, nerves, reactivity can all lead to a bad situation. Most dog owners are not paying attention to what their dogs are doing, they turn them loose then visit with friends or are on their phones. There is a dog park just a couple blocks from my house. Probably 50% of the time I drive by there are police and animal control vehicles there. So why do people think dog parks are a good place to take their dogs? Dogs don’t need dog friends, that is people humanizing their pets.

 

[EricA]

I think it would be more like taking your kid to a sketchy part of town and dropping them off to play with kids they don’t know. Not to say a kid can’t have a bad experience at a public school, but there are rules and teachers to enforce those rules.

Sure there are...

That is why so many kids graduate public schools that can't even READ or do basic math at the very bottom of proficiency levels. (not a joke)

A large public school system near me (that my grandmother and grandfather both used to teach at) recently made the news (for a very short time) for getting caught graduating kids that never attended. (a few schools got caught fudging the attendance books to meet the state requirements)

A kid has to attend for a particular number of days AND make a passing grade before that school receives their funding from the state. If you have too many kids 'fail' the school does not get paid (not paid for the student that failed) and that teacher is going to be fired and replaced with one that WILL pass those failing kids.

My shop hired a kid a few years back that graduated from one of the 'better' public schools around here in the 'nicer' and more affluent part of the city. He did not last a month. Could not really 'read' a tape measure, Forget about anything involving fractions with that guy.

Hired another guy around that same time that got a GED (general equivalency diploma) from our state.

What a GED Can Do for You. Passing the GED exam will earn you a state high school diploma and recognition that you have a high school level of education. If you're hoping to get a better job or higher degree, the GED is recognized and accepted by nearly all U.S. colleges, employers, and universities.

That guy was able to do simple math stuff but (seriously not joking here friend) could not actually read or write for squat. He had to fill out a simple daily timesheet and write down what he actually worked on during the day and how much time he spent on whatever project it was. Nothing super complicated right? Short, simple notes about what you worked on during the day is all I am talking about here. If it were not for him being able to use his smart phone to convert his speech to text (that he could then look at and copy to write down on his timesheet) he could not have done anything involving any words with more than a few letters in them. What I would call 'functionally illiterate'.


At the dog park I am THERE with my dog and can leave at any time if I do not like what is around us. Pretty much watching my dog and all of the interactions 100% of the time.

In a public school you are literally dropping them off to play with kids that YOU don’t know.

 

[Doberman Gang]

Sure there are...

That is why so many kids graduate public schools that can't even READ or do basic math at the very bottom of proficiency levels. (not a joke)

A large public school system near me (that my grandmother and grandfather both used to teach at) recently made the news (for a very short time) for getting caught graduating kids that never attended. (a few schools got caught fudging the attendance books to meet the state requirements)

A kid has to attend for a particular number of days AND make a passing grade before that school receives their funding from the state. If you have too many kids 'fail' the school does not get paid (not paid for the student that failed) and that teacher is going to be fired and replaced with one that WILL pass those failing kids.

My shop hired a kid a few years back that graduated from one of the 'better' public schools around here in the 'nicer' and more affluent part of the city. He did not last a month. Could not really 'read' a tape measure, Forget about anything involving fractions with that guy.

Hired another guy around that same time that got a GED (general equivalency diploma) from our state.

That guy was able to do simple math stuff but (seriously not joking here friend) could not actually read or write for squat. He had to fill out a simple daily timesheet and write down what he actually worked on during the day and how much time he spent on whatever project it was. Nothing super complicated right? Short, simple notes about what you worked on during the day is all I am talking about here. If it were not for him being able to use his smart phone to convert his speech to text (that he could then look at and copy to write down on his timesheet) he could not have done anything involving any words with more than a few letters in them. What I would call 'functionally illiterate'.


At the dog park I am THERE with my dog and can leave at any time if I do not like what is around us. Pretty much watching my dog and all of the interactions 100% of the time.

In a public school you are literally dropping them off to play with kids that YOU don’t know.

Didn’t think this was going to be a debate on public schools. I just didn’t think going to public schools and going to a dog park were remotely comparable. We can agree to disagree on this one.