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Prioritize for Success - A Manifesto for the New TOTAL DOBERMAN
- Thread starter Rits
- Start date
remy
Active Member
Remy too, I bet him and Olive have most of the same ones in common? The highlighted ones are dogs in his pedigree.
That’s Remy’s grandma! One of the things I love about Dobermans is they don’t really get white/gray, at least compared to other breeds.
Yup those same ones.
Rits
Hot Topics Subscriber
She looks pretty standard. One or two things I'd improve on but they all need something.
Doesn't surprise me with Jet and Eddie in there that the pedigree is so nice! If you look up Jet progeny, he has thrown a lot of longevity.
Also, almost every single dog (minus the tiny bit of euro on the sire side) on the back end are all descended from Kafka "CH Brunswig's Cryptonite"
Rits
Hot Topics Subscriber
Arlo is an Eddie granddaughter, who is a Kafka grandson. Della her littermate, and I believe 4 others, are also all still alive and WELL and can move in the show ring today just as well, if not better, as any of the younger veterans. They are doubled up on Eddie, not in the same generation but across generation. There is something to be desired about selectively linebreeding (common ancestors but not directly related) while also adding in diversity. Especially if it brings in or continues longevity.
Not sure if this goes along with the purpose of the thread, but I saw this today regarding horse sports. To shorten it up, the "speed and endurance phase" of the equestrian eventers 50 years ago was approximately 18 miles, part of it with jumps, and an ideal time of approximately 1 1/2 hours. Now it's 9 minutes and only one phase left (the cross-country), no roads and tracks or steeplechase. All gone.
The title of this thread is "prioritizing for success". Breeders MUST test dogs in order to breed true. With no testing of physical & mental capabilities you have no idea what you've got under that skin. I've taken a deep dive into pedigrees lately and most all the top show dogs in the nation have zero physical working titles behind their names. Strings of CH & GCH with no proof that they can go through basic commands (CD) or take direction from a handler (agility) or have a bit of prey drive (fast cat, barn hunt), willingness to team up with handler (scent work), much less the Dobermans initial purpose, protection! I understand that not everyone wants to show or do sports and that companion dogs are all most people want. I'm talking about breeders understanding that pedigrees of dogs in the "working dog" category that haven't done a lick of any kind of work for 4 generations are insulting to our breed.
The Event horses of today are still top athletes, still at the top of their game, still good looking, but they aren't the same as 50 years ago. They are heavier, deeper, rounder in general, the greyhound-sleek look of long lean muscle has been replaced over the years... because the tests have changed. These heavier deeper muscled horses aren't built to gallop 18 miles in an hour and a half. The sport changes the horse (or dog) changes. When there is no sport at all, our dogs will morph into purely eye candy because that's the only test they are passing on.
From Tamarack HIll Farm on facebook:
When humans stop testing for some trait, breeders usually stop trying to produce it, and it goes away from the equine population.
The recent cross country course in Paris required horses to gallop at an average speed of 570 meters per minute for something over nine minutes, whereas 50 years ago, event horses at the top of that sport were asked to gallop for nineteen minutes at an average speed of just over 600 meters a minute. And it took one and a half hours or so of riding, not 9 minutes.
But what is probably the reality is that once some trait has been lost from a breeding population, it gets pretty darn hard to get it back.
Where’s it all headed? Probably, reflecting modern crowded conditions, loss of land, loss of a sense of the possible, horse sports are shrinking in terms of the need for traits associated with toughness, stamina, endurance, soundness, and we see this in all kinds of ways, not simply in distance riding and eventing.
The attachment was what the 1974 event horses had on their plates for the World Championships just 50 years ago. Hard to imagine asking for that today of the current competitors, a fully different sport now for fully different kinds of horses.
The title of this thread is "prioritizing for success". Breeders MUST test dogs in order to breed true. With no testing of physical & mental capabilities you have no idea what you've got under that skin. I've taken a deep dive into pedigrees lately and most all the top show dogs in the nation have zero physical working titles behind their names. Strings of CH & GCH with no proof that they can go through basic commands (CD) or take direction from a handler (agility) or have a bit of prey drive (fast cat, barn hunt), willingness to team up with handler (scent work), much less the Dobermans initial purpose, protection! I understand that not everyone wants to show or do sports and that companion dogs are all most people want. I'm talking about breeders understanding that pedigrees of dogs in the "working dog" category that haven't done a lick of any kind of work for 4 generations are insulting to our breed.
The Event horses of today are still top athletes, still at the top of their game, still good looking, but they aren't the same as 50 years ago. They are heavier, deeper, rounder in general, the greyhound-sleek look of long lean muscle has been replaced over the years... because the tests have changed. These heavier deeper muscled horses aren't built to gallop 18 miles in an hour and a half. The sport changes the horse (or dog) changes. When there is no sport at all, our dogs will morph into purely eye candy because that's the only test they are passing on.
From Tamarack HIll Farm on facebook:
When humans stop testing for some trait, breeders usually stop trying to produce it, and it goes away from the equine population.
The recent cross country course in Paris required horses to gallop at an average speed of 570 meters per minute for something over nine minutes, whereas 50 years ago, event horses at the top of that sport were asked to gallop for nineteen minutes at an average speed of just over 600 meters a minute. And it took one and a half hours or so of riding, not 9 minutes.
But what is probably the reality is that once some trait has been lost from a breeding population, it gets pretty darn hard to get it back.
Where’s it all headed? Probably, reflecting modern crowded conditions, loss of land, loss of a sense of the possible, horse sports are shrinking in terms of the need for traits associated with toughness, stamina, endurance, soundness, and we see this in all kinds of ways, not simply in distance riding and eventing.
The attachment was what the 1974 event horses had on their plates for the World Championships just 50 years ago. Hard to imagine asking for that today of the current competitors, a fully different sport now for fully different kinds of horses.
BGpa
Hot Topics Subscriber
Just re-reading this thread and wanted to say thanks again, to all esp @Rits a d @Ravenbird for explaining so well.
Any good books published within 5 years that take this total package approach on dobes?
Any forums that share more in depth on the working dobe side?
I don't know of any books on this subject for Dobermans or any other breed.
UDC - United Doberman Club - https://uniteddobermanclub.com/ has a website with some useful information. They aim for correct conformation and working abilities, but they don't have a forum for discussion about it. They have a few trials per year where they do conformation and temperament testing and IGP with the Doberman as a breed in focus.
Not sure exactly what you are wanting to learn, but the group most focused on having working dog temperaments for protection and athletic sports while meeting the standards for conformation as written by the DPCA is UDC. They strive for the total Doberman.
BGpa
Hot Topics Subscriber
I wish I could do that!!! If it's the Nationals in April that's on your calendar, you will get to see it all. Everyone loves to see the IGP, but they have conformation, temperament tests according to age plus a WAE that you could see as well. If/when you go please take notes and let us know your thoughts. Some members lean more toward conformation and AKC sports and some are only interested in bite sports, but most are there because the believe in the Total Doberman. The closest show to me in the last 5 years was a 12 hour drive one way, so I've never been able to go. I support them and their purpose with my membership.
I've been to a few UDC events. I competed in a couple and I watched just about all the events. I even saw a couple breed surveys which was pretty interesting.
I used to be a member but let that go because I'm not really one for drama.
I used to be a member but let that go because I'm not really one for drama.
I think it was pretty fascinating to see because you could look at a dog and tell what kennel it came from.
Same here and I dropped it 3 or 4 years ago.
I see drama on FB here and there. Maybe more at the shows? I don't know since I've never been to a UDC event. It's such a shame that grown ups in a tiny, very specialized club would have to bash on each other at all, much less in public. And like in the other thread about doing conformation as a newbie - I see the same comments, that people can get pretty ugly to newcomers. I was never talked down to when I watched the convo classes at a cluster show, and in fact the person I sat next to explained a lot to me as we looked at the catalog of entries. But then again I wasn't showing, so I was not a threat? LOL. In obedience many people were helpful, never came across anyone rude, but then again, the people who seemed a little stuffy didn't approach me nor I to them.
So freaking sad. I guess since I've never been to any UDC events I don't see it? I can only recall a very recent call-out on a member on FB, and maybe an accusation on someone a few years ago. But sounds like both of you saw stuff in the club you didn't want to be part of.
I was appalled at DPCA the last year or two when the board shut out new applicants and there was tons of drama over that. Still going on over the board and treatment of members there from what I gather.
As small as the Doberman world is, you'd think we'd all work together....
You hit the nail on the head there.
It's still going on, unfortunately. I'm still a member so I get a list of new applicants every month and another of how many they accepted. I would say maybe 25% are accepted, even though they (the rejected ones) have reputable sponsors. I'm not sure what it's going to do to our breed when a lot of younger people want to get in but they are rejected by the parent club.
It's very sad. I have no interest in participating in any dog activities at all because of it.
I think one of the best lessons my dad taught me was you teach people how to treat you.That really resonated with me. So when people treated me or mine badly I'm out.
There was an incident that happened in confo with my boy Drake. A new to UDC judge made a mistake and no one was willing to fix it. The reason is if it were fixed, my dog would have beat the person that had the power to fix it. I don't care how you look at it that was WRONG! Because of my fathers words, no one wrongs me. I can't support that kind of crap
It is sad. I find sports "easier" because if the dog does the thing, there is no judge that can fail them. Confo, you are at their mercy, and willingly agree to their opinion just by entering.
With horses I wanted to start in the show (confo) world and found out it was totally political and moved quickly on to sports. With clear jumps and timer there is a winner and nobody can deny your win. And you learn quickly that you yourself can't blame anyone but yourself for not training better or simply not having the best dog. I know exactly when I NQ in scent work or obedience but if I did confo I'm at the mercy and opinion of the judge.
That's exactly right again. In conformation things can do a total flip from one day to the next, depending on the judges attitude.
Boy is that an understatement. I saw so much wining and dining the night before and sure enough those horses won against superior horses the next day.
I get that. What I was upset about is the judge realized she made a mistake and tried to correct it. The person that had the power to correct it wouldn't allow it for 2 reasons. She had a dog in the ring that would lose his title and she openly hated my dog's breeder. That's a bit beyond a judges opinion. I guess what I am saying is IMO UDC is really no different than AKC. In fact there is a lot of the smae people. It's a HUGE no thanks for me!
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