Pepper 🌶️

[MichiH]

I feel for you, I really do. Katyusha had loose stools this morning too, not sure why. I am not planning to stool sample her unless it's more than a one-off.

I hope you can get a spay appointment that doesn't get horsed up from one end or the other.

I’m so sorry I know the stress of loose stools is not fun. Hope she’s better today!

I feel like the stool sample is a waste because I had her back to normal, I thought. So it’s odd it just started again.

They want to see her also since her last appointment was in May. She’s been out of wack since last Tuesday evening, some normal, some not, but at her normal poop times so it hasn’t increased. I wasn’t worried because it wasn’t extreme either. We are a week in and its still happening.

Annoyed because she was fine and I was ready for her spay mentally too. Then last night she woke me and I knew it wasn’t going to be good.

 

[Ravenbird]

Didn’t want to jinx it , had an appt this am for spay. Pepper has been fine stomach wise for past 2 days. I had her on a bland diet and she didn’t go for 1 day and then day 2, normal
Bms. Well, last night wakes me with loose stool and again this am loose stool along with straining. Diet had been her normal foods and hasn’t been off leash so I can make sure she’s not eating stuff.

I am so so so tired of dealing with these issues. I was ready for her spay and of course it won’t be happening AGAIN.

Taking a stool sample in this morning, but with our past I assume it’s fine. Getting frustrated with this happening as she was doing so well for months.

I can't imagine your frustration... and poor Pepper! Maybe it's been discussed already - seems like we've poked every single possible thing for causation, but yesterday I was reading yet another thing about Copper Storage Liver Disease. There is the acute stage like @Ddski5 experienced, but also there's a possibility of mild/chronic - which does include symptoms of diarrhea and vomiting. One more wild guess on my part, but has she been tested for it? I understand it's now part of Embarks testing, but it's new and if you got an Embark several years back it would not be included. (It wasn't on there when I got Ashas test about 5 years ago.)
As always, hugs and wishing you & Pepper some relief.

 

[MichiH]

I can't imagine your frustration... and poor Pepper! Maybe it's been discussed already - seems like we've poked every single possible thing for causation, but yesterday I was reading yet another thing about Copper Storage Liver Disease. There is the acute stage like @Ddski5 experienced, but also there's a possibility of mild/chronic - which does include symptoms of diarrhea and vomiting. One more wild guess on my part, but has she been tested for it? I understand it's now part of Embarks testing, but it's new and if you got an Embark several years back it would not be included. (It wasn't on there when I got Ashas test about 5 years ago.)
As always, hugs and wishing you & Pepper some relief.

Interesting thank you, I will ask today.

And my youngest has a mild concussion, when it rains it pours

 

[Ravenbird]

And my youngest has a mild concussion

Take care of that - I'm sure you know concussions of any kind need to be watched. (I've had several, no fun at all)

 

[MichiH]

Take care of that - I'm sure you know concussions of any kind need to be watched. (I've had several, no fun at all)

Thank you Round 3 for him he’s definitely why I have high Bp!

 

[Ravenbird]

has she been tested for it? I understand it's now part of Embarks testing

So this ^^^ would just be genetically prone to not processing copper. Actual diagnosis I think can only be done with a liver biopsy? That's a question for @Ddski5, and also if on/off vomiting & diarrhea for years might suggest fluctuating copper amounts.

 

[MichiH]

So this ^^^ would just be genetically prone to not processing copper. Actual diagnosis I think can only be done with a liver biopsy? That's a question for @Ddski5, and also if on/off vomiting & diarrhea for years might suggest fluctuating copper amounts.

No, she had only had generic bloodwork done. Sorry missed that earlier.

Can they test it in stool?

 

[Ravenbird]

Can they test it in stool?

No.

 

[MyBuddy]

Unbelievable. I don't even know what to say. It's an incredible string of bad luck. It's unthinkable that she knows! LOL but maybe, who knows?

I'd say when you scheduled again I wouldn't mention the word spay in her presence, ever!

That's kind of a joke... but not really.


I'm so sorry you're going through this. It's bad enough worrying about her being spayed but this back and forth emotional roller coaster for you just getting it done, has got to be very unnerving.


Maybe the third time's a charm!

 

[Two Dobes]

So very sorry to hear this....and your child with the concussion!!! Prayers for this day to get better!

 

[BGpa]

No, she had only had generic bloodwork done. Sorry missed that earlier.

Can they test it in stool?

Just a reminder, the 3 genetic tests for copper storage disease dont mean your dobe WILL get CSD, nor does abscence mean they wont. Like DCM. One of the three CSD genetic markers is more "penetrant" (I'll let those more knowledgeable exolain as I am not a geneticist nor do I play one on teh innertubez...)

BYB Bonnie did have one of the 4 DCM markers (Embark tests for DCM1 and 2, Wisdom tests for all four and is running a special I think $129, but double check they test for copper as Embark does)
ANB the more penetrant one for CSD.

But, here is the key:
Until you do the biological tests (echo holter and there is a blood something) for DCM,
On copper storage the leading indicator is a liver test like the throid, etc on the annual wellness test your vet should be doing for regular checkup.

Btw I created a "health plan for copper storage disease and documented all on "the other doberman webforum"
That I would link with @JanS permission but otherwise will not in respecting web owner courtesy. The other forum admins also prefer I not send eyeballs here, so I try to be a good house guest there too.
but you can easily search for it. "Talk" vs "chat"

I modeled the copper health plan on the DCM healthplan the DPCA dec 2024 did in youtube. And all my research.

One thing you can do if you pop positive on DNA or the liver test is go back and ask pet foid maker for copper in each formula. Its not in the AVSA(so?) standards yet for pet food makers, but each maker was happy to provide details on request, as I understand its been under discussion for awhile. Its a big problem in a couple other breeds too.
I switched from one Inukshik formula to another (that Bonnie has thrived on since a puppy, glowing coat from fish in it)
and decreased amout to keep calories same.
That cut copper in half.
Then I checked and found the Costco liver treats were very high, so those are gone. Cows eat grass from dirt and they concentrate copper in livers. So just avoid anything beef liver.

There is more inc a great podcast interview I can share here by the chief scientist at U Utrecht thats studying CSD, (search spotify for Functional Dog collab)

and will later with @JanS ok but right now a little black devil dog is giving me serious side eye..."time for walkDad!"

 

[JanS]

Boy, so sorry this keeps happening to you!

 

[Ddski5]

Yes. The only true way to test for CSD is liver biopsy.
A vet can throw a guess at it with doing a full liver panel and detecting high liver values and I think there’s a way to find overflow of copper in the bloodstream. Regardless, a liver biopsy is the only true way and that’s pretty invasive.

I would suggest to check out Voyager dog food. Voyager Dog Food Co.

Lots of good info on this site and I have personally talked to the founder on the phone. Really smart and nice guy that took time out on a Saturday morning to have a long conversation. He did not think Freyja had CSD because it was too acute and too short lived but from the research I did on CSD, I still choose to feed this dog food. Freyja likes it, looks great on it and I don’t like the high levels of copper in normal dog foods.

Is Pepper still getting into chicken and goose poop? I know firsthand how sneaky these asshats can be, it’s crazy.

 

[Rits]

I would fast her before her spay so you can get it done without poop issues! 24 hr fast.

 

[MichiH]

I would fast her before her spay so you can get it done without poop issues! 24 hr fast.

Good idea! Thank you.

 

[MichiH]

Stool was positive for coccidia. Picking up meds today. Vet said most dogs don’t have issues with it and pass the parasite. Since Pepper has a sensitive stomach it’s clearly bothering her.

Never had a positive stool sample come back for her. Feeling relieved we know what it is.

She’s been having normal stools then she’ll has diarrhea on her next. So after the pro pectalin not working this all makes sense.

Thanks all for the advice and support.

 

[BGpa]

Stool was positive for coccidia. Picking up meds today. Vet said most dogs don’t have issues with it and pass the parasite. Since Pepper has a sensitive stomach it’s clearly bothering her.

Never had a positive stool sample come back for her. Feeling relieved we know what it is.

She’s been having normal stools then she’ll has diarrhea on her next. So after the pro pectalin not working this all makes sense.

Thanks all for the advice and support.

Thanks for the update and coccidia reminder. We do a lot of trail hikes on and off leash and one near a lot of tame wild geese, so I'll be on the lookout. No poop eating! (Or dead mice). Apparently we two legged can get it from some water supplies...charming!

Coccidiosis in Dogs | VCA Animal Hospitals

Learn all you need to know about coccidiosis in dogs with VCA. Get expert advice from VCA Animal Hospitals to keep your pet healthy and happy.

vcahospitals.com

A relief to know and be able now to plan ahead for spay. "3rd time's the charm"

 

[MichiH]

Same here lots of woods and we are always in them. Plus, my cat is an outdoor cat, we adopted him as he was feral then. Wonderful sweet cat, but leaves his prizes around. I try my hardest to clean them up asap. So who knows. We did a big hike prior surgery and then diarrhea that night… lesson learned.

Exactly, 3rd time lol, I sure hope so. Although, she goes into heat around when the next spay is. I need to be watchful because if so then we wait again…

Anyone know if I have here as 10/10 heat starts ish, would a spay 2 days before cause issues with hormones and such?

 

[MichiH]

Yes. The only true way to test for CSD is liver biopsy.
A vet can throw a guess at it with doing a full liver panel and detecting high liver values and I think there’s a way to find overflow of copper in the bloodstream. Regardless, a liver biopsy is the only true way and that’s pretty invasive.

I would suggest to check out Voyager dog food. Voyager Dog Food Co.

Lots of good info on this site and I have personally talked to the founder on the phone. Really smart and nice guy that took time out on a Saturday morning to have a long conversation. He did not think Freyja had CSD because it was too acute and too short lived but from the research I did on CSD, I still choose to feed this dog food. Freyja likes it, looks great on it and I don’t like the high levels of copper in normal dog foods.

Is Pepper still getting into chicken and goose poop? I know firsthand how sneaky these asshats can be, it’s crazy.

Thank you!

No, she’s let her poop eating habit go, thankfully.

Although, the day before her spay we did a long hike and she rolled in poop. I’m sure she sniffed it pretty hard before her roll.

Maybe that’s what did it

Major relief this is a parasite as I was losing it again thinking here we go into the unknown.

 

[JanS]

Anyone know if I have here as 10/10 heat starts ish, would a spay 2 days before cause issues with hormones and such?

I think a lot of vets and breeders think that's too close.

I'm glad you figured out why she was sick. Maybe it's time to pick up a basket muzzle for hikes and stuff if there's potential stuff to eat or drink that could make her sick. I know my friends Dobermans would lap up icky swamp water when we were out for hikes and they tested positive for coccidia more than once.