Pedigree Dogs Exposed Three Years on..(please watch all)
- Thread starter iceman
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Dobiemom_of2
Member
It was sad that the lady who admitted to culling puppies, and the other ridgeback breeders thought that was perfectly moral to cull a perfectly healthy puppy. Interesting to learn that the ridge is unhealthy and that's what they are bred to look like. Sad to see what a lot of humans have done to dogs to make them show quality regardless of what it does to the dog's health. Would be interesting for the AKC to be looked into like that. I have no clue what the rules or regulations are for them so please don't get upset with me, just thought this was an interesting piece to watch and learn about.
iceman
Active Member
Weird... I first heard of culling in Rhodesian Ridgebacks, and here it is again. It must suck to have to look so hard for a vet that will euthanize a perfectly health puppy
I find this totally unacceptable.. if the breeders think they are not up to the breed standard, why not set up a system where they would be disqualified at shows, hence preventing them from gaining breeding rights and just home them as pets?
Why kill perfectly healthy pups just because they have disqualifying faults in the ring?
Caloni
Active Member
Agreed. A friend of ours got a puppy that was from a Rhodesian breeder friend. She was able to stop her from euthanizing her because of only having one cowlick on he back, not 2. That dog lived to be 12 with no health problems before she suddenly died of a stroke! I would rather have a dog missing spots, a ridge, or with less wrinkles if it were healthy!
I hope you read my post as sarcastic because that was my intention. I too find culling unacceptable. There is already a system in place in the US. They just don't register the pup or give the owner any papers. That prevents the pup from being shown and being able to have registered pups.
What is it with Ridgeback breeders??? I was just a kid when I heard of Ridgebacks being culled for something as simple as a white toe.
iceman
Active Member
Don't worry.....we share the same thoughts.
It seems that not much has changed in three years. The KC and AKC seem a lot alike in that they give breed clubs a lot of power when it comes to the standard. I blame the breed clubs more for the health issues that have come as a result of exaggerated traits. I don't know how you'd blame a registry for the problems when their main function is being a database.
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
Thanks for sharing - I don't even know where to begin but I will chime in with Ingrid on the culling of puppies that are otherwise healthy. There are good pet homes looking for a healthy companion that it seems barbaric to me. So I will say this - I don't hear a lot anymore about culling puppies here like in the old days but I find it interesting that countries who are so AR minded that they stopped c/d have not jumped on the band wagon to stop culling. To me that is far more serious than c/d. They don't want you to c/d but it is ok to cull healthy puppies???? Just saying.....................
Physical traits are far easier managed however than hereditary health issues. For example it would not be that hard to improve the breathing by lengthening the nose through selective breeding after all that is how they got the short nose. An inch might make all the difference. It would of course compromise the head shape but seems to me it would be worth it in the long run. On the other hand cardio is a totally different matter,very complex set of genes not just one or two and without genetic testing, could destroy a gene pool for no good reason. It happened to one breed and I would have to go back and look it up to see which one.
The solution that is most effective and that they are hinting at is do away with purebreds. Is that a viable solution??? Not for me. We can't cure any problems if we don't have the gene pool to pull from. It is a catch 22. I will say that in good conscious I would find it hard to breed a dog knowing it had a known genetic defect that would pass on to its puppies. That I don't understand. So if that is the attitude of breeders over there then no wonder the AR groups started there!!!
You know I often see things or connect things differently so don't anyone get too upset - I am just discussing.............and I am NOT familiar with KCS - BUT if the brain continues to grow or is bigger than the skull is this not very similar to the myth about Dobermans brain continuing to grow and then they turn on you???? Are they related???
Although we know it is not a problem in real life with Dobermans that I have ever heard of. Did they get the KCS confused with the Doberman.
I agree with Ingrid it should and is the breeders and breed club responsibility to clean up what they can NOT the registry or the show venues.
Physical traits are far easier managed however than hereditary health issues. For example it would not be that hard to improve the breathing by lengthening the nose through selective breeding after all that is how they got the short nose. An inch might make all the difference. It would of course compromise the head shape but seems to me it would be worth it in the long run. On the other hand cardio is a totally different matter,very complex set of genes not just one or two and without genetic testing, could destroy a gene pool for no good reason. It happened to one breed and I would have to go back and look it up to see which one.
The solution that is most effective and that they are hinting at is do away with purebreds. Is that a viable solution??? Not for me. We can't cure any problems if we don't have the gene pool to pull from. It is a catch 22. I will say that in good conscious I would find it hard to breed a dog knowing it had a known genetic defect that would pass on to its puppies. That I don't understand. So if that is the attitude of breeders over there then no wonder the AR groups started there!!!
You know I often see things or connect things differently so don't anyone get too upset - I am just discussing.............and I am NOT familiar with KCS - BUT if the brain continues to grow or is bigger than the skull is this not very similar to the myth about Dobermans brain continuing to grow and then they turn on you???? Are they related???
Although we know it is not a problem in real life with Dobermans that I have ever heard of. Did they get the KCS confused with the Doberman.
I agree with Ingrid it should and is the breeders and breed club responsibility to clean up what they can NOT the registry or the show venues.
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
That seems strange as one of the approved colors and winners at Westminister is often a white poodle. I think the apricots are not desirable but they make great pets. Do you know for a fact of is it what is being passed around??? But in genetics white is a part of the gene pool so might no be as easy to not breed for them as one might think.
I would have to check but is there a party color poodle??? I had not heard of one.
IMO that would be a good thing. If you watch the picture change over 100 years, the dogs looked better before. Now they look like they ran into a lead wall at top speed.
Marinegeekswife
Hot Topics Subscriber
Very interesting! Thank you for sharing the update, Iceman. For the most part they are spot on. It is disgusting how people seem to treat these living animals like objects, it is more important to them that they continue winning at shows or make money on stud fees even when they know their dogs are passing on health issues. Human ego hurting the purebred world, for sure. The Dalmatian case seems to be a perfect example of how very careful, very controlled out breeding could really help improve the health without losing the breed's integrity. The bulldog skull morph was amazing! Interesting that the Kennel Club made statements back in the 80s that they were removing clauses that encouraged exaggerated standards but it has made almost no impact even almost 30 years later! How is that even possible? I adore the comparison of working vs conformation breedings. It really hits home how they've put such an emphasis on beauty that many of these breeds couldn't begin to do the job they were created to do. I do wonder if some of these breeds are too far gone? Has the gene pool become so full of health issues that there are not enough left without the issues to breed back to health? I agree that ultimately the power lies with the breeders, they are most of the ones on the boards of the breed clubs, they are the ones picking the dogs to breed together. They need to be able to put aside their egos and do what is best for the breeds. I also agree with their statements of what falls on the purchasers/owners, we need to be certain we insist on only buying from breeders that produce healthy stock without throwing aspects like temperament and conformation out the window. I disagree that another government committee will help. Regulations only work if they are reasonable and if they are followed. A general committee too often is populated by people without proper knowledge and experience or those who have an extreme agenda they want passed. The best way is a grassroots movement from the ground up of owners/purchasers insisting on only buying healthy pups and breeders who stick to their guns and only breed healthy, good temperament, and conformationally correct stock regardless of the flavor of the month in the show ring. There can be a balance but we need to strive for it.
Rits
Hot Topics Subscriber
To clear up confusion, Ridgeless ridgebacks are not typically culled here in the Americas. Culling can also mean sterilization. They are sterilized and placed in pet homes here in America but, it is my understanding the Ridgeback Club of Great Britain was the one with culling (euth) written in their code which has been recently changed due to the exposure from this documentary. Along with doing my research on the doberman, I have become interested in the Ridgeback a time or two out of curiosity's sake, and reputable breeders would mention on their page the chance of ridgeless puppies and how they would go to pet homes only.
There are many breeds that I agree have gone too far. If you look back 50 years, their ancestors look amazing in structure and could use a bit more clean up here and there but nothing like the head shapes/body shapes they have gone to today. Pet dog or not but when you look at a breed that has breathing issues that a majority of should need surgery so that they can properly breathe... then you have gone too far and it is up to the breeders, purchasers, and those involved in the fancy to put a stop to this and turn it around.
There are many breeds that I agree have gone too far. If you look back 50 years, their ancestors look amazing in structure and could use a bit more clean up here and there but nothing like the head shapes/body shapes they have gone to today. Pet dog or not but when you look at a breed that has breathing issues that a majority of should need surgery so that they can properly breathe... then you have gone too far and it is up to the breeders, purchasers, and those involved in the fancy to put a stop to this and turn it around.
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
Long ago I had a decision to make on Vwd. While I knew it was not a major and for the first 10 years I bred probably half the puppies I produced were Vwd affected because when I learned about the test my girls tested carriers and one was clear. So I started a quest to move to all clear dogs and took some flack about the best dog and that there were not enough clear dogs to choose from. All including myself still agree Vwd in Dobermans is not a big issues as so few ever have a bleeding problem from it.
Now we have the PDK4 maker and I will do the same although I was fortunate as the majority tested negative. I had one PDK4 homo and she was spayed and placed in a pet home. She had already had a litter when the test came out and I had kept a female. The male tested neg so she will be bred to neg and I will keep neg puppy to carry on the bloodline.
I can't tell you how hard it was to find a clear male puppy.
For myself I tried to imagine the conversation with a family that got vwd affected and their puppy died due to Vwd complications. What would I say to them???? Everything I knew and all the lame come backs about how it was not a major problem and it isn't........left me cold so I decided to go to clear dogs then I did not have to ever face a
person and say yes I knew it could be a problem but the chances were so slim...........yada yada yada.
I do find it beyond belief with as serious as the KCS problem is that they would intentionally breed the dog anyway. I also understand that eliminating him from the gene pool will not stop the problem but at least it will assure he does not produce and carry it on as he is a known carrier of the defect. I would not know how to face clients and say yes I knew. How would you justify the breeding and increase the affected population???
But to eliminate the problem they must find the DNA marker BECAUSE a carrier should not exhibit symptoms so you would not know without the DNA marker. If it is as prevalent as they say and I always take that with a grain of salt as people have been known to exaggerate to make a point and later have to retract but it gains them votes in the mean time. Just look at the lies HSUS, PETA and the ASPCA tell to get folks to send them money!!! FRAUD JMHO
Now we have the PDK4 maker and I will do the same although I was fortunate as the majority tested negative. I had one PDK4 homo and she was spayed and placed in a pet home. She had already had a litter when the test came out and I had kept a female. The male tested neg so she will be bred to neg and I will keep neg puppy to carry on the bloodline.
I can't tell you how hard it was to find a clear male puppy.
For myself I tried to imagine the conversation with a family that got vwd affected and their puppy died due to Vwd complications. What would I say to them???? Everything I knew and all the lame come backs about how it was not a major problem and it isn't........left me cold so I decided to go to clear dogs then I did not have to ever face a
person and say yes I knew it could be a problem but the chances were so slim...........yada yada yada.
I do find it beyond belief with as serious as the KCS problem is that they would intentionally breed the dog anyway. I also understand that eliminating him from the gene pool will not stop the problem but at least it will assure he does not produce and carry it on as he is a known carrier of the defect. I would not know how to face clients and say yes I knew. How would you justify the breeding and increase the affected population???
But to eliminate the problem they must find the DNA marker BECAUSE a carrier should not exhibit symptoms so you would not know without the DNA marker. If it is as prevalent as they say and I always take that with a grain of salt as people have been known to exaggerate to make a point and later have to retract but it gains them votes in the mean time. Just look at the lies HSUS, PETA and the ASPCA tell to get folks to send them money!!! FRAUD JMHO
dh8
Hot Topics Subscriber
Very sad but also a very obvious and long ignored problem. No group has ever been effective in policing themselves and a breed club is no exception. Aside from one single devoted breeder of Dalmations, the only examples of improved health of dogs through breeding has been the result of separate regulatory bodies as they have in countries like Sweden and Germany.
There is also a complete misrepresentation that everyone involved with dogs "loves" dogs. Some do but many treat them as they would any farm animal...as a means of income, period. It doesn't mean they're intentionally cruel but they aren't going to do anything to benefit the animal that would compromise their maximizing income from their current breeding dogs.
If breeders and breed clubs taking responsibility to make changes on their own were the answer, it would have happened long ago. Instead the problems have only worsened exponentially through generations of breeding for exaggerated features.
Thanks for sharing iceman!
There is also a complete misrepresentation that everyone involved with dogs "loves" dogs. Some do but many treat them as they would any farm animal...as a means of income, period. It doesn't mean they're intentionally cruel but they aren't going to do anything to benefit the animal that would compromise their maximizing income from their current breeding dogs.
If breeders and breed clubs taking responsibility to make changes on their own were the answer, it would have happened long ago. Instead the problems have only worsened exponentially through generations of breeding for exaggerated features.
Thanks for sharing iceman!
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
Folks all I will say is don't buy all the propaganda. With regulation also comes corruption, kick backs and ways to get around it. There is no system that is perfect but the breed clubs at least here in the US are very involved in research and testing. I am on several breeder list and we discuss it continually. Folks who are not involved on any personal level with breeding make assumptions that might not always be accurate. I don't need anyone to tell me right from wrong. And most folks feel the same way or we would all be victims of some crime weekly!!!!
As we become more aware of problems we are hendered by lack of proper testing and accurate evaluation. As we learn more we do more. As I said I am not familiar with the KCS problems and before jumping to any half baked conclusion I would want to hear from both sides and vets who treat it. I would want to know how many of the KCS breeders would ignore the problem. JMHO
I think the documentary is good and if it does bring to light a problem then folks need to take action to clean up their own house. If they don't then I don't believe the answer is ever to punish everyone to hopefully get the few bad apples.
I would like to ask Ice to speak to his experience with breed club and the regulations over there if they have actually helped and how. I find it hard to believe the majority of breeders over there don't care which is what I have a problem with.
As we become more aware of problems we are hendered by lack of proper testing and accurate evaluation. As we learn more we do more. As I said I am not familiar with the KCS problems and before jumping to any half baked conclusion I would want to hear from both sides and vets who treat it. I would want to know how many of the KCS breeders would ignore the problem. JMHO
I think the documentary is good and if it does bring to light a problem then folks need to take action to clean up their own house. If they don't then I don't believe the answer is ever to punish everyone to hopefully get the few bad apples.
I would like to ask Ice to speak to his experience with breed club and the regulations over there if they have actually helped and how. I find it hard to believe the majority of breeders over there don't care which is what I have a problem with.
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