I'm new to doberman-chat so could really do with some help and added advice. Currently I have a 13 month old male unneutered european doberman. He is in training to be a family protection dog (due to previous security incident) however needs to mature more before undergoing the 'protection' training. At the moment we and the trainers are solely focusing on obedience. We have 2 other small friendly pet dogs both male pomeranian (neutered. age 9) french bulldog (unneutered. age 3). Initially when the Doberman came home at age 9 months, he nipped/ bit the frenchie on 2 separate occasions inflicting no damage the first time then just a minor scratch the second. The frenchie is very jumpy and playful so we have been taking time to slowly introduce them however this was halted due to the frenchie needing to be on crate rest for a spinal issue. During this time we focused on The pomeranian senior dog and doberman very slow introducing them over a course of 2 months and they had been getting on well. over that 8 week period we initially started with both dogs on lead in the garden for a few minutes at a time with positive reinforcement when the doberman would not try and initiate play with the pomeranian (please note the pomeranian is senior and has no interest in playing with other dogs and likes to mind his own business) we then moved on to both dogs on lead within the house and eventually both dogs were able to be off lead with supervision. This had been going well for 4 weeks with zero signs of aggression or annoyance from either dog. During our usual morning routine, I had let out the pomeranian to head to the garden with the frenchie in my arms (due to his recovery). The doberman was also walking around having just come in from the garden which had been our typical routine for the past few weeks (I do not allow for the doberman to be off lead in the garden with the 2 smaller dogs) to my horror the doberman attempted to jump and bite the frenchie whilst in my arms which he was corrected for and unable to make contact. At this point the pomeranian had returned his own crate. The doberman then snatched the pomeranian from the crate and began shaking him like ragdoll. The doberman eventually released him after being restrained leaving the pomeranian with a fractured shoulder and muscle bite wound which required medical attention. I need some advice as to why he would attack the pomeranian whom he had pretty much become friends with. Our trainer has reassured us that this will be worked on and was also equally horrified and confused with the incident as since we have had the doberman he has never shown any form of aggression or interest in the pomeranian. He is also obedient with all commands such as sit, lay, wait etc/ The doberman is incredibly loving to myself, husband and family members who come to stay. He has never shown them any form of aggression. . He is protective of course when he may see people he is unfamiliar with on the property i.e gardeners in the garden. Open to all advice from those who have had similar situations and experience with dobermans.
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My 13 month doberman keeps attacking dogs
- Thread starter Dobiechan
- Start date
Cferg
Notable member
I have experience with this. I had an older yorkie that didn’t care for other dogs, much like your Pomeranian. I admit that I didn’t handle it perfectly from the time I brought my Doberman puppy home. But in the end it didn’t work out. And I rehomed the small dog to a retired couples only dog household.
And I never let it get to the point of attacking and shaking. My Doberman just pinned the yorkie but the size difference meant that half the dog fit in my Dobermans mouth. And the yorkie only received a couple of small puncture wounds. It sounds like luck that the Pom didn’t die.
My dog gets along with other dogs including other females when she’s at the boarders house. But I don’t think she could live with another female. Especially if the other female wasn’t excited about having another dog in the house as my yorkie was.
I would keep the Doberman separated for now and think long and hard about what your priorities are. And for my situation it took over a year before I started having any fights in my house between the two.
And I never let it get to the point of attacking and shaking. My Doberman just pinned the yorkie but the size difference meant that half the dog fit in my Dobermans mouth. And the yorkie only received a couple of small puncture wounds. It sounds like luck that the Pom didn’t die.
My dog gets along with other dogs including other females when she’s at the boarders house. But I don’t think she could live with another female. Especially if the other female wasn’t excited about having another dog in the house as my yorkie was.
I would keep the Doberman separated for now and think long and hard about what your priorities are. And for my situation it took over a year before I started having any fights in my house between the two.
Dobermans as a breed are known to have same-sex aggression and can be perfectly good in every aspect except for being with another dog of the same sex. It doesn't usually change if the aggressive dog or the other dog is neutered. The most successful answer other than re-homing is crate & rotate. Whether an actual crate or just a room with a closed door, the dogs are never in the same space. The action your Doberman took on the pom was likely re-directed aggression. He wanted to get at the Frenchie in your arms but you disallowed it, so he directed his aggression toward the dog he could get to. This is very common with animals in aggressive drive - I know someone who was badly damaged by her cat - the cat was watching a stray cat outside the window and she went to close the drapes and her cat turned around and attacked her. And in my own house we had two cats who were best friends but if they saw a stray cat outside they would attack each other in a horrific way.
With the power of a Doberman I would not take any chances with him being in the same area as your two small dogs, nor would I count on it being trained out unless you have access to an electronic collar, which I believe are no longer available in your area.
With the power of a Doberman I would not take any chances with him being in the same area as your two small dogs, nor would I count on it being trained out unless you have access to an electronic collar, which I believe are no longer available in your area.
It was very surprising as he had never even attempted to even paw or pin him down previously. I have kept them completely separated now and will continue to do so as based on the response from yourself and the other forum member, it’s not something he will grow out of. I can’t risk my two small dogs being attacked. If it wasn’t for the severity of the home security issue we faced, I wouldn’t have even needed a protection dog. It is miraculously that the Pom didn’t die, I was right there luckily so was able to intervene immediately. Based on the level of obedience that he should have, would even the most trained dobermans in this situation not release the dog immediately they are instructed to? Did your dog show signs of aggression to other dogs also for example when on walks other than the Yorkie in the home? I’m also curious to know if the sudden aggression that he showed towards the Pomeranian could re occur with humans?
Thank you for your advice and insight it is very helpful. Although I have owned dogs my whole life, this is my first working breed dog so all advice is very much appreciated. We have kept them completely separated and will have to continue to do so it seems. I don’t think based on the information provided that I can ever risk something like this happening again. I am incredibly attached to the Pomeranian and can’t bare the thought of rehousing him especially at his age. Perhaps it is selfish of me but will have to take some time to really think about best course of action long term. With your experience in dobermans are there any other signs I should look out for when it comes to aggression? In regards to re direction, what would be the best way in preventing this. E collars are not available in the UK and we are only able to use prong collars. It was so quick the attack with no build up. I didn’t think he would be so unpredictable.
Cferg
Notable member
My dogs has,had,would have reactivity towards other dogs if I allowed it. More frustration if the other dog is reactive. But if my dog is on leash and another dog isn’t, and tries to run up on my dog she for sure will display a lot of aggression. Which I don’t think is that out of the ordinary and understandable.
Now my dog attacking the yorkie it wasn’t so much a frustration or redirection. She would start staring and if you didn’t snatch her up, it was on. In her defense we probably let the yorkie be too much of an Ahole early on. Basically it’s probably unlikely you will work this out to where you and all the dogs will be able to all just hangout and have a normal home life. My dog even without actual aggression, would still have still have to be monitored in a two dog house. Redirecting in drive would definitely be a possibility.
Thanks for providing more insight. It’s greatly appreciated.
Not sure if you are saying the level of training you dog currently has or will have in the future. Yes, a very highly trained dog would "out" or "drop it" on command, but even the most highly trained dog will sometimes disobey if they are in their highest level of drive. That said, a highly trained dog would not have tried to bite a dog you were holding in your arms. That was pretty brazen. But at 13 months old he's only beginning his training, so it's back to square one: he is not to be trusted. When the life of your other dogs is at hand, I would not take chances.
From your description it sounds like only your small dogs are his problem but we can't see your dog over the miles. He may be just fine without any access to the other dogs. Some very dog-aggressive dogs with good solid training are perfectly fine in public, around other dogs, in dog shows and sport trials, just need to be managed at home with the other household pets.
How is he in public, is he OK with strangers? How is he walking in a park with other dogs around? Is he playful with you? Does he drag you around with little respect or is he a polite walker? Does he ever get still and stare at people or dogs in a way that seems challenging? Does he get excited at the sight of cats or squirrels? What was he doing the first 9 months of his life? Was he in training or did you just get him from the breeders at 9 months? There can't be answers except in a very general way as you can see. All the posts here, including mine can only address what you describe.
We wish you the best with him. Welcome to Doberman Chat!
Yes very brazen of him to do so. I guess as you said he is in the beginning of his training but will have to go back to square one with no access to other dogs. It appears to be just dogs smaller than him as though he knows he can dominate. When he is at boarding training with other dogs such as rottweilers and german shepherds he has not had any issues and got on well with them. That being said he was the youngest in the pack and the others were already very highly trained.
So his first 8 months he was at the breeders in Hungary, we then purchased him through the protection dog training company whom then imported him to the UK and spent 1 month completing basic obedience training with them. After that time he returned to us to mature and bond with boarding/training intermittently before he commences protection training. He is okay with strangers dependant on the setting. For example if a stranger is in the garden (workmen) then he will kick off, however when we are out he is perfectly fine. He is protective if a car comes and parks near us but not reactive in terms of barking and trying to attack he just watches intently. We don't really see cats but other wildlife like cats and birds yes he starts barking and takes chase for them in the garden. He does not pull on the lead and is very polite when walking. With my partner and I he is incredibly loving and affectionate. He is also this way to regular family members that come over such a our teenage nephew and parents.
I hope this provides more clarity. Because of the unexpected attack on my pomeranian it is making me worry slightly that he is unpredictable. I wouldn't want him to turn on any family member.
Thanks to everyone for the suggestions/advice it's much appreciated.
Cferg
Notable member
The fact that your dog gets along with other dogs at the trainers sounds like mine.
Some of your other descriptions are describing a territorial edge in your dog. My dog doesn’t even want to chase cats in my yard she just wants them to go away. Meaning she will chase, but just to get them to leave. She doesn’t chase them from a prey response. Same for birds even. Anything that she doesn’t recognize as belonging there has to go. In her mind
Some of your other descriptions are describing a territorial edge in your dog. My dog doesn’t even want to chase cats in my yard she just wants them to go away. Meaning she will chase, but just to get them to leave. She doesn’t chase them from a prey response. Same for birds even. Anything that she doesn’t recognize as belonging there has to go. In her mind
From your description, I don't think he will be aggressive to you or your family members or guests. He seems to understand watching his surroundings with suspicion, but not out of control. Your trainer sounds invested in him and his behavior, I'm hoping they will continue to help with his training and behavior and especially helping to teach you how to deal with surprises when they arise.
Beautiful boy, so glad you shared his picture!
Beautiful boy, so glad you shared his picture!
Ukesox
$ Forum Donor $
Very handsome boy.
It’s quite possible that during his 8 months in Hungary he had an incident/issue with an aggressive smaller dog.
Not knowing that bit of history doesn’t help you but his reaction to your dog doesn’t mean that it’s trait that will follow through to other situations.
My first Dobe wouldn’t tolerate small back & white dogs (especially the yappy ones whose owners thought that because their dogs were small they didn’t need training) & would, if they got in her face, flip them & then stand over them. It never went beyond this & once she’d made her point they’d get on. My guess was it was a reaction to having been chased by an aggressive couple like that as a young pup.
Also, disagreeable things they do as teenagers will usually with the right training not be an issue in adulthood.
It’s quite possible that during his 8 months in Hungary he had an incident/issue with an aggressive smaller dog.
Not knowing that bit of history doesn’t help you but his reaction to your dog doesn’t mean that it’s trait that will follow through to other situations.
My first Dobe wouldn’t tolerate small back & white dogs (especially the yappy ones whose owners thought that because their dogs were small they didn’t need training) & would, if they got in her face, flip them & then stand over them. It never went beyond this & once she’d made her point they’d get on. My guess was it was a reaction to having been chased by an aggressive couple like that as a young pup.
Also, disagreeable things they do as teenagers will usually with the right training not be an issue in adulthood.
thank you!
Thanks for this Ukesox. Yes he's definitely in that teenager phase, will just stay consistent with the training.
kaloric
Well-Known Member
^^^^^
THIS.
The thing about e-collars is that they're effective at enforcing commands by getting a dog's attention, when it wants to do other things, but if the dog is red-zoning, things have already progressed too far.
With fearful dogs, the last thing you want to do is add to the circumstances that are causing fear or anxiety, that will put them even more firmly into defensive drive.
With aggressive dogs, you don't want to stimulate them even more, that could put them even more firmly into fight or prey drive.
It's a lot trickier to manage aggression, especially SSA that's hormonally-driven.
OP, when dealing with this, you need to focus on methods that will stop your boy in his tracks, before he gets within striking range of a dog he's targeting. Physical restraints such as a leash & training collar are probably the most effective. Using his power against him, so that he's correcting himself the harder he tries to go after another dog is ideal. You can also try aversive stimuli such as a spray bottle (with safe, but uncomfortable additives if necessary) to nip aggressive posturing in the bud to send him the message that he only gets to do things like that on your command. At the end of the day, it's all about training our dogs to restrain themselves until they have no option other than getting into a physical altercation, or we give them permission to fight/react.
boysofdobermann
New Member
imho, dogs are dogs. It's normal for them fight for the rank, they dont work like humans as like a happy family welcoming the newcomer,
you have to observe them when they are calm and try to check who is the alpha in their group. In case is the Doberman, pet him for first, feed him for first (but always after you) YOU/family > dog1> dog2> dog3.
EDIT: e-collars in a fight will increase the aggressivity
you have to observe them when they are calm and try to check who is the alpha in their group. In case is the Doberman, pet him for first, feed him for first (but always after you) YOU/family > dog1> dog2> dog3.
EDIT: e-collars in a fight will increase the aggressivity
