Just for fun, since there are so many experienced dobe folk here with other big strong dog history...

Nordika said:
Laughs in BRT, not your ordinary BRT, a 196 lb freak of nature... hellhound. (That's my 150lb newf next to him. Lol) He got a little too much of the Ovcharka genes. He wasn't prejudiced, he hated everyone. They don't do well in sport because it isn't a game to them, they aim to eliminate a threat. Siberian working lines, very, very, serious dog, nuff said. View attachment 162375View attachment 162374
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Dang! My worry is that people hear "terrier" and they think of a dog that might be yappy but is easy to handle. No wonder my trainer didn't want anything to do with them. I have heard about the Ovcharka.
 
Ravenbird said:
Much admiration, and would be tempted if I was in my 30's, just because... But hard pass to fit in my life nowadays!
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It's still a very young breed, so like a box of chocolates, it's a crap shoot what you're going to get. There are some that are nothing more than a happy go lucky golden retriever that loves everyone and everything and to the other extreme- what we had, a dog with an extremely sharp temperament, genuinely a menace to society, and of course anything between the two extremes, including complete nerve bags.

We had a female that had a great working balanced temperament, could do it all, anything you asked for, she was game. A great dog, an easy dog, a fun dog. Training KNPV with her was great.

We did a dog cognition test on our male, scored right up there with Border Collie on intelligence and cooperation, however, one part of this test was a tell. On cooperation and taking directions, there were two cups, and you let the dog see under which cup you put the treat, and then you point to the other cup. He followed my cues and directions until this point, but he knew I was wrong and he knew better. He would always choose his own path if he believed that he knew better.

He had a sibling with the same temperament, that boy was returned to the breeder after biting the owner's face, I think he was 10 or 11 months at the time. He was inevitably PTS because no trainer can fix a sharp temperament that will bite at the drop of a hat, and no one could handle him. I lost count of how many bones I had broken and how many times my dog bit me. He mauled a family member. If he decided you were a threat, you were marked for death and that's terrifying with an animal his size with the ability to crush your skull in his jaws. He tried to rip the leg off one of our employees when they walked into our shop because someone forgot to lock the shop door. He was a dog that would die to protect me, a dog that could turn off pain receptors and chew through metal and run though broken glass to do so. Most normal people would have chosen euthanasia, we chose to move to a remote island instead, to remove him from a world he wasn't meant for. We had 11 years with our big oaf. I don't regret anything, but would not do it again and would not recommend the breed, generally speaking.
 
Nordika said:
It's still a very young breed, so like a box of chocolates, it's a crap shoot what you're going to get. There are some that are nothing more than a happy go lucky golden retriever that loves everyone and everything and to the other extreme- what we had, a dog with an extremely sharp temperament, genuinely a menace to society, and of course anything between the two extremes, including complete nerve bags.

We had a female that had a great working balanced temperament, could do it all, anything you asked for, she was game. A great dog, an easy dog, a fun dog. Training KNPV with her was great.

We did a dog cognition test on our male, scored right up there with Border Collie on intelligence and cooperation, however, one part of this test was a tell. On cooperation and taking directions, there were two cups, and you let the dog see under which cup you put the treat, and then you point to the other cup. He followed my cues and directions until this point, but he knew I was wrong and he knew better. He would always choose his own path if he believed that he knew better.

He had a sibling with the same temperament, that boy was returned to the breeder after biting the owner's face, I think he was 10 or 11 months at the time. He was inevitably PTS because no trainer can fix a sharp temperament that will bite at the drop of a hat, and no one could handle him. I lost count of how many bones I had broken and how many times my dog bit me. He mauled a family member. If he decided you were a threat, you were marked for death and that's terrifying with an animal his size with the ability to crush your skull in his jaws. He tried to rip the leg off one of our employees when they walked into our shop because someone forgot to lock the shop door. He was a dog that would die to protect me, a dog that could turn off pain receptors and chew through metal and run though broken glass to do so. Most normal people would have chosen euthanasia, we chose to move to a remote island instead, to remove him from a world he wasn't meant for. We had 11 years with our big oaf. I don't regret anything, but would not do it again and would not recommend the breed, generally speaking.
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Oh. My. Gawd.
Thank you for this context...@Nordika

Yeah. I would not even step foot on your island, much less come to the door...😉

Ok, no more well meant advice by me on "how to" strong dogs...🤣

PS: BRT and Ovcharka, yep.
Not on my old guy list for "one more big dog"...🧐
 
Oh Little Oji said:
That was a pleasant watch.

@Sunje mentioned the BRT. I've only met two at a Tulip festival in WA state. I didn't learn much at that time. I have been a member of a BRT Facebook group for a handful of years since I was researching breeds. I understand there is a lot of variability in the breed in terms of temperament. Some really seem to be pretty average Joe dogs. I had phone calls with two BRT breeders (conformation). The one who was more experienced, after I finally found out the purchase price and had to tell her that was too much for me, she wished me luck and told me to just remember some BRT lines have aggression issues.

The Akita: I wonder why the video's host didn't mention there is the Japanese Akita and the American Akita. I have heard they are about equal in terms of watchdog ability. The American Akita is much more impressive looking to me, and I understand way back it had GSD mixed in with the Japanese Akita. In the video, the muzzled Akita is a Japanese Akita. The rest looked like American Akitas. Japanese Akitas look like giant Shiba Inus. I had a nice long phone call with an American Akita breeder (conformation) and I did find out she was charging $4,800 for pups. Fully health tested and titled parentage.

I considered the Presa Canario (or as I have long known it, the Canary Dog). I have not met one or talked to a breeder on the phone. I knew it would probably be a risky breed to get if I could not really trust the breeder.

The Malamute: A good friend had a male. This friend was the brother of my best friend, who owned a GSD male. The GSD male used to beat up my Doberman male, and Sam the GSD would not stop fighting when the other dog submitted. That Malamute is the only dog I ever saw that got the better of that GSD. The Malamute was neutered pretty young per the breeder's contract, FYI.

The video guy had another dog along with his Dutchie. It looks like it might be a Boerboel that i s on the somewhat smaller end and without exaggerated size and structure. Maybe it's a mix. It would be interesting to find that he owns a Boerboel but finds those other six breeds to be ones he would not own. I did meet a Boerboel at a nearby brewery taproom, and my current male dog named Zephyr (1/2 Turkish Kangal, 1/4 Anatolian Shepherd, 1/4 gamebred mastiff) got along fine meeting that male Boerboel.

I had a nice phone conversation with a Boerboel breeder and he would be who I would go with if I decide to get one for my next dog.. Unlike the Boerboel breeder who I tried and tried to contact, that is located just outside the city where I go see the in-laws every Christmas, the Boerboel breeder I talked to on the phone actually was available to talk. That other breeder asks far too much for pups anyway. The guy I talked to on the phone has traveled to South Africa, done collaborations with folks over there, and is preserving two particular lines of Boerboel – Piona being one. I forget the other. This man, when asked about price said in all his travels, he has never met a dog that is worth over $2,500. He fully health tests. Yeah, he may be my next breeder.

Anyway, good on ya' if you read this far.
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Thanks @Oh Little Oji since you have experience in a whole 'nother world of breeders building dogs, lessons learned.

So I was hoping you'd weigh in.
"Gamebred" had to look that up:

List of Game Dog Type Dog Breeds

A list of breeds that have game dog lines.
www.dogbreedinfo.com www.dogbreedinfo.com

Zephyr is the one helping you train Cosmo thst your wife and daughters picked out, right? Very interesting mix...on Zephyr.
Any more insights on Cosmo now he's a little older?
 
BGpa said:
Oh. My. Gawd.
Thank you for this context...@Nordika

Yeah. I would not even step foot on your island, much less come to the door...😉

Ok, no more well meant advice by me on "how to" strong dogs...🤣

PS: BRT and Ovcharka, yep.
Not on my old guy list for "one more big dog"...🧐
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The old saying goes, "if you don't want a dog that bites people, don't get a dog that was bred to bite people." The Doberman and the BRT were uniquely created to do that. They are similar in that they bond to their handler, velcro dogs, protection focused, and loving and goofy with their family. They both failed in their military service because of their strong bond to handler, having to be retired when their handler left. But there is a huge difference in the breeds used in their creation. The BRT has a very high defensive drive and fight drive(some trainers don't like this term) which comes from the Ovcharka, both the Caucasian and South Russian Ovcharka as well as the east european shepherds. The Red Star Army loved the Caucasian Ovcharka, which could not even be tamed when mixed with a Newfoundland to create the Moscow Water Dog, a failed breed that would attack the drowning victims instead of saving them 😉 The Doberman was created with more stable shepherds, with hunting breeds, german mastiff(great dane), etc. which gives them an overall more stable temperament across the breed.
 
Nordika said:
The old saying goes, "if you don't want a dog that bites people, don't get a dog that was bred to bite people." The Doberman and the BRT were uniquely created to do that. They are similar in that they bond to their handler, velcro dogs, protection focused, and loving and goofy with their family. They both failed in their military service because of their strong bond to handler, having to be retired when their handler left. But there is a huge difference in the breeds used in their creation. The BRT has a very high defensive drive and fight drive(some trainers don't like this term) which comes from the Ovcharka, both the Caucasian and South Russian Ovcharka as well as the east european shepherds. The Red Star Army loved the Caucasian Ovcharka, which could not even be tamed when mixed with a Newfoundland to create the Moscow Water Dog, a failed breed that would attack the drowning victims instead of saving them 😉 The Doberman was created with more stable shepherds, with hunting breeds, german mastiff(great dane), etc. which gives them an overall more stable temperament across the breed.
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Very interesting! I did not know the BRT came partly from the Caucausian Shepherd, which is another Foundation Breed going back 2000 years bred to do a hard job; "go kill the wolf!"

I recall reading the Red Army favored the Ovcharka as prison guard dogs in the Gulag.

Very intimidating!
 
BGpa said:
Very interesting! I did not know the BRT came partly from the Caucausian Shepherd, which is another Foundation Breed going back 2000 years bred to do a hard job; "go kill the wolf!"

I recall reading the Red Army favored the Ovcharka as prison guard dogs in the Gulag.

Very intimidating!
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They still are, according to Wiki. Thanks Nordika for all the interesting info. Perhaps the Caucasian shepherds would be useful against the damn wolves released around here.
 
BGpa said:
Very interesting! I did not know the BRT came partly from the Caucausian Shepherd, which is another Foundation Breed going back 2000 years bred to do a hard job; "go kill the wolf!"

I recall reading the Red Army favored the Ovcharka as prison guard dogs in the Gulag.

Very intimidating!
Click to expand...
If memory serves, most of the Caucasian Ovcharka foundation breeding of the BRT came in the form of other created Russian breeds. Such as the Moscow Water Dog (Caucasian Ovcharka, East European Shepherd aka Vostochno Evropeiskaya Ovcharka, Newfoundland), the Vostochno Evropeiskaya Ovcharka(old German Shepherd, Caucasian Ovcharka and Siberian Laika), The Moscow Guard Dog or Moscow Watchdog(St. Bernard, Caucasian Ovcharka, Russian Great Dane), the Russian Great Dane(Great Dane, Vostochno Evropeiskaya Ovcharka)..and you get the gist of it. I have a whole series of books on the History, it's just been quite a while since reading.
 
Nordika said:
If memory serves, most of the Caucasian Ovcharka foundation breeding of the BRT came in the form of other created Russian breeds. Such as the Moscow Water Dog (Caucasian Ovcharka, East European Shepherd aka Vostochno Evropeiskaya Ovcharka, Newfoundland), the Vostochno Evropeiskaya Ovcharka(old German Shepherd, Caucasian Ovcharka and Siberian Laika), The Moscow Guard Dog or Moscow Watchdog(St. Bernard, Caucasian Ovcharka, Russian Great Dane), the Russian Great Dane(Great Dane, Vostochno Evropeiskaya Ovcharka)..and you get the gist of it. I have a whole series of books on the History, it's just been quite a while since reading.
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Wow, just thinking through the drive and working characteristics of those combos is intriguing.

Another example of how dogs are bred to purpose, like the original Dobermann, or the Rhodesian Ridgeback, of the various versions of Austrailian sheep and cattle dogs.

@Nordika what amount of those were bred for "looks" for example? An imposing dog has its own value, in suggesting status, as well as actual protection. Were some of these dogs kept on dachas around Moscow for high ranking Party members?
Were some more favored by criminal gangs?

I get or infer the Caucasian Shepherd foundational breed characteristic is of course both cold weather hardiness, independent decision making, courage and fierceness and the ability to work as a team to take on a pack of wolves. But what else? Health? Longevity?

Why the newfy mix, I wonder? I think of coat for cold water, and sociability to work with people, but what else came out in yours?
Was your newfy out of Russian lines or Western lines, like the Portuguese Water dogs? You mentioned it saved your life several times...got any stories that show the nature of that bred to purpose as it was expressed in your situation?

Sometimes I get so far down the rabbit hole on conformation showing and the nitnoid details of pedigree reading, genetics, that I am surprised how I forget how much bigger "dog world is, elsewhere", as in the harsh environments where people depend on their dogs, literally, to survive.

And to riff the other way... back to fashion trends-

For example, I dont know if its from COVID where many urban people fled cities to work remotely in ranch adjacent country, or the populatity of some western movies and tv series, or maybe boomers retiring to that big piece of property, etc.

But I see a LOT of big Livestock Guardian breeds in chi-chi affluent socal suburbs...more by 3-5x than I recall in past. Pet fashion.
 
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PS: speaking or rabbit holes and kavkaz dogs...
Did you know the original goldens had some mixed in from a traveling Russian circus?

I was scrolling this site, saw a picture of Golden Retriever listed in the Molosser 3 group...(wut?)...

molosserdogs.com

Golden Retriever

Alongside the famous Labrador, the playful and affectionate Golden Retriever is one of the most popular breeds in the Un
molosserdogs.com molosserdogs.com
 

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JanS said:
And then I saw a "Miniature Mastiff" there. It looks like a damn Pug mix.
molosserdogs.com

Miniature Mastiff

Miniature Mastiff Breed ProfileOverviewThe Miniature Mastiff is a smaller version of the traditional Mastiff, bred to re
molosserdogs.com molosserdogs.com
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I know! All the pictures look AI generated...which makes me wonder about the content. 🧐

I've noticed the huge number of similar dog info websites proliferating over the years since Covid, that seem to be more about generating clicks and ads, based on the same sort of mushy verbiage that all seems the same cut and paste from wikipedia etc.

AI is inherently recursive, and its hard to determine whats garbage in and garbage out without more deeply researching in that of whats not so easily found online- for example what one can only find in books like @Nordika mentioned, or books by actual doberman breeders etc over the years.
 
BGpa said:
Wow, just thinking through the drive and working characteristics of those combos is intriguing.

Another example of how dogs are bred to purpose, like the original Dobermann, or the Rhodesian Ridgeback, of the various versions of Austrailian sheep and cattle dogs.

@Nordika what amount of those were bred for "looks" for example? An imposing dog has its own value, in suggesting status, as well as actual protection. Were some of these dogs kept on dachas around Moscow for high ranking Party members?
Were some more favored by criminal gangs?

I get or infer the Caucasian Shepherd foundational breed characteristic is of course both cold weather hardiness, independent decision making, courage and fierceness and the ability to work as a team to take on a pack of wolves. But what else? Health? Longevity?

Why the newfy mix, I wonder? I think of coat for cold water, and sociability to work with people, but what else came out in yours?
Was your newfy out of Russian lines or Western lines, like the Portuguese Water dogs? You mentioned it saved your life several times...got any stories that show the nature of that bred to purpose as it was expressed in your situation?

Sometimes I get so far down the rabbit hole on conformation showing and the nitnoid details of pedigree reading, genetics, that I am surprised how I forget how much bigger "dog world is, elsewhere", as in the harsh environments where people depend on their dogs, literally, to survive.

And to riff the other way... back to fashion trends-

For example, I dont know if its from COVID where many urban people fled cities to work remotely in ranch adjacent country, or the populatity of some western movies and tv series, or maybe boomers retiring to that big piece of property, etc.

But I see a LOT of big Livestock Guardian breeds in chi-chi affluent socal suburbs...more by 3-5x than I recall in past. Pet fashion.
Click to expand...
The newfy mix was I think to produce a water rescue dog. But the Caucasian shepherd in it made it attack the victims instead of rescuing them. And probably to tame the CS temperament, although it doesn't sound like it worked very well, esp. since that cross was allowed to die out.

Yes, people have gotten LGDs as a pet, and it doesn't go well if the dog has the drive to work. Those end up getting dumped in shelters. Or the LGDs that can't cut it in a guardian job, and then they get dumped at shelters. I do see it around our state.
 
BGpa said:
Wow, just thinking through the drive and working characteristics of those combos is intriguing.

Another example of how dogs are bred to purpose, like the original Dobermann, or the Rhodesian Ridgeback, of the various versions of Austrailian sheep and cattle dogs.

@Nordika what amount of those were bred for "looks" for example? An imposing dog has its own value, in suggesting status, as well as actual protection. Were some of these dogs kept on dachas around Moscow for high ranking Party members?
Were some more favored by criminal gangs?

I get or infer the Caucasian Shepherd foundational breed characteristic is of course both cold weather hardiness, independent decision making, courage and fierceness and the ability to work as a team to take on a pack of wolves. But what else? Health? Longevity?

Why the newfy mix, I wonder? I think of coat for cold water, and sociability to work with people, but what else came out in yours?
Was your newfy out of Russian lines or Western lines, like the Portuguese Water dogs? You mentioned it saved your life several times...got any stories that show the nature of that bred to purpose as it was expressed in your situation?

Sometimes I get so far down the rabbit hole on conformation showing and the nitnoid details of pedigree reading, genetics, that I am surprised how I forget how much bigger "dog world is, elsewhere", as in the harsh environments where people depend on their dogs, literally, to survive.

And to riff the other way... back to fashion trends-

For example, I dont know if its from COVID where many urban people fled cities to work remotely in ranch adjacent country, or the populatity of some western movies and tv series, or maybe boomers retiring to that big piece of property, etc.

But I see a LOT of big Livestock Guardian breeds in chi-chi affluent socal suburbs...more by 3-5x than I recall in past. Pet fashion.
Click to expand...
Um, where to start...their purpose was really to breed big scary guard dogs. They got a train full of dogs from Germany. Too much to cover, if you're interested in a good summary, this is great information
She does talk about many of the different breeds and why mixed were of necessity as some of those dogs brought in were single specimens. She also points out the Rottweiler used in BRT was not pure, and you'll see Doberman in there. The Russians at that time had no use for short haired dogs, Doberman, Dane, Hounds, all those short haired dogs were bred into longer/thicker coated dogs.

As far as my Newfoundland, she was Euro and American show line, nothing to do with Portuguese Water Dogs? Newfoundlands have a different way of swimming than other dogs, it is innate, as is their caretaking of human charges.
 
BGpa said:
I know! All the pictures look AI generated...which makes me wonder about the content. 🧐

I've noticed the huge number of similar dog info websites proliferating over the years since Covid, that seem to be more about generating clicks and ads, based on the same sort of mushy verbiage that all seems the same cut and paste from wikipedia etc.

AI is inherently recursive, and its hard to determine whats garbage in and garbage out without more deeply researching in that of whats not so easily found online- for example what one can only find in books like @Nordika mentioned, or books by actual doberman breeders etc over the years.
Click to expand...
My recommendation, I think from 1909: "Der Dobermannpinscher in Wort und Bild," (The Dobermann Pinscher in Word and Image) Otto Göller. He played a leading role in the official breeding during those early years and is credited with presenting the breed in this significant work. Göller listed the foundation breeds used, and I think it's important to understand that the blue mastiff, IS the German Mastiff, which IS the Great Dane. So many people refuse to believe this...I don't understand why they can't take Göller at his word. The German Mastiff, i.e. Great Dane was a large game hunting dog of that time, pic for reference of the German Mastiff at that time, 1890s
1000028781.webp
 
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