Is the doberman doomed?
- Thread starter GennyB
- Start date
There is zero merle genes in the Doberman breed, so that's either a lie about 100% or it's an AI or otherwise altered photo. Every merle color that "pops up" in a breed that doesn't have merle in their genetics gets the color from an outcross to a merle colored dog. From the Canine Journal:
The merle gene is not in the Doberman bloodline. However, you might have seen photos of merle-colored Dobies. If you have, it is because they are not true Dobermans and have been mixed with another dog breed that carries the merle gene, such as the Australian Shepherd or the Collie.
The 8% COI would also be questionable in a purebred as the gene pool so so stacked there's nothing to breed to to bring it down that low. I think high teens is the lowest I've seen documented.
It could also have some Beauceran in it since that is what their tail looks like and they do come in merle.
BG1
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I'm intrigued by the Beauce primarily because of their fierce and serious demeanor, the downside being a lot of work and up to 3 years to mature.
I am just spitballing here, applying the open mindset about functional dog breeding to purpose and health first.
Its a shepherd, not a mastiff mix so there is more "attack the wolf" built in vs "bark to alert, watch and decide" in dobes, amiright?
A Beauce x dobe outcross makes some sense, if you like the look of naturally upright ears and more temperature range...double coat.
And what I've read its likely the early dobe breed mix included some, and so the black and tan reminds me of a dobe in a gsd skinsuit...
Would be stable...There is some DCM in the Beauce now I understand so an F1 50/50 could add hardiness/diversity in that way, and longevity, if the data were there from Embark and Betterbred, and breeder used those tools, plus annual echo/holter on TTN, PK4 implicated lines at least...
Genetics – American Beauceron Club
beauce.org
Genetics – American Beauceron Club
beauce.org
Besuces bring in some tendency to deafness, PRA and GDV although the latter is physique based not hereditary in Beauce lines as some Dobe lines are reputed to be?
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I was just referring to the fact that the ad said 100% Doberman. If the dog is for real it has to be mixed with another breed. Which at this point I don't care about mixing to improve the health, but to breed to make an exotic color and then claim it's 100% Doberman, that's icky.
remy
Active Member
There is someone in my area who breeds “Merle Dobermans”, they are actually Catahoula Leopard Hounds mixed with Dobermans lol.
BG1
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I assumed Beauces were natural upright, so thanks for the correction.
The breed standard actually disquals naturally upright...odd!
"EARS
The ears are set high. They may be cropped or left natural. Cropped ears are erect, never converging nor diverging, and point slightly forward.
Uncropped ears are flat and rather short. They are not carried flat against the cheeks. The length of the uncropped ear is about half the length of the head.
Disqualification: Natural, uncropped ears that are carried upright and rigid."
Breed Standards : Beauceron | United Kennel Club (UKC)
The Beauceron is a large animal with a rustic look and a powerful, muscular build, without heaviness. Appearance emphasizes effortless movement and a direct and fearless manner. The conformation of the Beauceron is balanced, harmoniously constructed and free from exaggeration.
www.ukcdogs.com
BG1
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Wikipedia says Aloka was an Indian Pariah dog, aka "INDog"
Another good out cross candidate for its 15 year life span and no genetic disease...
BG1
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That seems to be a fashion trend...there was someone on instagram selling merle dobes for "$12,000"...saw a post on reddit calling them out, banned.
Read "The Dog Merchants" by Kim Kavan.
She visits dog auctions in missouri area where they admit 40% of their orders come from "rescues"
and interviewed Mike Abrams of Helen Woodward, who points out its not the dogs fault that the market demand for pet dogs exceeds the supply available from ethical preservation breeders, by something like 40%.
I visited Helen Woodward a couple years ago just to stop in (I've had two rescues in past- they did a very good job back in the say)
Gone were the shaded outdoor octogamnal six unit kennels, and in the inner new building were rows of concrete cubicles with mostly litters of pups. I was intrigued by the "Catahoula mix" and "black nosed cur mix" pups especially because I wasnt aware of any breeders in socal- these are typically bred in Loisiana, SE for pig hunting/catch dogs, and both can be a handful for nice young families as a first time dog...
So I asked the nice young nan at recepetion who was directing traffic to the office cubicles where new owners were qualified, signed and paid minimum $500 iirc...
He seemed guarded when I asked where do these digs come from but finally andwered "from our partners"...transported in.
So, its a business. Supply and demand, and CEO Abrams made a compelling argument about best practices...
I've also met many dog owners with TJ fogs, rescued from south of the border, and like ghe unregulated eastern european dobes and others...these are just businesses filling a need.
Not condoning, judging, just noticing there is a LOT that goes on in dog world thats not what a new dog buyer might know, without doing a lot of due diligence...
So, back to hybridization for genetic heath and longevity...
Whats your scientific wild a$& guess about how to outcross for three generstions, as Dr Sophie Liu opined in that clip from facebook earlier?
The Disappearing Dobetman breeding project is on hold, but I personally dont like Cane Corsos or another Warlock fad...
If one were to create a designer pet fobe that lives 12 years and low DCM, what would get us there in 3 gen?
Me, I'd suggest "find the widest dispersion as far from european origin dna as possible",
with enough of the "structure, drive, temperament as you can get for predictable done like companion pet guardian behavior in the mature dog..."
Thats what the general public wants I think, the look without the expense of the highly inbred show dogs.
BG1
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Thanks! Thats the impression I've gotten from the two different owner-dog teams I've met on trails. One disable female vet i recall reading about has a Beauce as Service Dog. Sturdy and tall enough for light mobility...tasks.
Hmm.....Sounds like another breed I have been introduced to recently.
I was looking at beauces too, thinking that they might be an alternative to another doberman. They tend to be high drive, and often have little sense of self-preservation. That kind of broke it for me, b/c my last girlie dobe was like that, leapt off of a 4' high wall at me as a 10 week old puppy (fortunately I caught her). There were quite a few beauce people who talked about their dogs' frequent injuries on the beauce FB pages. That and the shedding--double coat and all. A few people said that they weren't really great as bitesport dogs, others said they tended to be really hard-headed and stubborn, needed A LOT of work and exercise to be tolerable in the home. My current dobie boy is very independent and confident, and he is a challenging dog to train! Don't particularly want another like that, esp. one w/ more hair.
Inbreeding at its very finest. (((Sarcasm))) This is an AKC CH proudly being used for breeding. I have officially lost every bit of confidence I ever had in the show world breeders actually trying to improve the breed because this is not a small time backyard breeder.
I have replaced the dog names with letters. Please note that dog J is in the pedigree 7 x in 5 generations and is the grandson of L by means of L being bred to his own daughter. Bonus - J died of sudden death (DCM) before his 8th birthday. Each of the 13 arrows with "More" means more of those same dogs repeated yet again.... I was going to put this under its own post but thought it fit right here under the headline about our Doberman being Doomed.
I am almost to the point of throwing up. I understand line breeding, I understand purposeful breeding to capture a look or temperament. I understand someone breeding as best they know how with all the tests and using an older sire and still get heart disease. I understand that. But using a pedigree with a known DCM dog as the main ingredient and calling it good? I give up. I honestly just can't deal with it any more.
I have replaced the dog names with letters. Please note that dog J is in the pedigree 7 x in 5 generations and is the grandson of L by means of L being bred to his own daughter. Bonus - J died of sudden death (DCM) before his 8th birthday. Each of the 13 arrows with "More" means more of those same dogs repeated yet again.... I was going to put this under its own post but thought it fit right here under the headline about our Doberman being Doomed.
I am almost to the point of throwing up. I understand line breeding, I understand purposeful breeding to capture a look or temperament. I understand someone breeding as best they know how with all the tests and using an older sire and still get heart disease. I understand that. But using a pedigree with a known DCM dog as the main ingredient and calling it good? I give up. I honestly just can't deal with it any more.
I passed on a litter that was similarly linebred on DCM. I really would like to see much more emphasis on health and temperament rather than looks. Let's face it--today's doberman is WAAY different from Herr Dobermann's first dogs, and even vastly different from dogs bred in the 80s, with the current fad of the bulging pigeon chest.Inbreeding at its very finest. (((Sarcasm))) This is an AKC CH proudly being used for breeding. I have officially lost every bit of confidence I ever had in the show world breeders actually trying to improve the breed because this is not a small time backyard breeder.
I have replaced the dog names with letters. Please note that dog J is in the pedigree 7 x in 5 generations and is the grandson of L by means of L being bred to his own daughter. Bonus - J died of sudden death (DCM) before his 8th birthday. Each of the 13 arrows with "More" means more of those same dogs repeated yet again.... I was going to put this under its own post but thought it fit right here under the headline about our Doberman being Doomed.
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I'm still looking at another breed for our next dog, although that is way in the future right now.
