Is cropping purely cosmetic?
- Thread starter WiglWerm
- Start date
Oh, no worries as far as I'm concerned. I think it's fairly well related to the title of the thread. But I suppose a new one could be started. I was going to answer your question you posed last night regarding what are my reasons for being pro-crop. I hadn't gotten around to answering that one yet, instead letting my mind wander to other aspects of the topic. I'd be happy to when I get another block of free time laterYes I was and I am beginning to see this is one of those debates that could go on and on and onnnnnn...
I don't know how but I hijacked this thread. I am now done.
WiglWerm
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Yes, sounds good
TheDoctor'sMom
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I wholeheartedly agree with this. Doctor is floppy because of circumstances, but it is not because that is what we prefer. In fact, every day I wish that he had been able to be cropped.
My biggest issue with DPCA is that they specifically say on their site that dobermans should be spayed/neutered at 6 months. If they are advocating this for our breed when we know that anytime before 18 months messes with critical hormones needed for growth, then how can we trust them to honestly portray any health concerns with uncropped ears? Instead, they are trying to play both sides of the fence and keep AR activists appeased.
Seriously? The DPCA website says Dobermans should be neutered at six months? How can they make that blanket statement?
TheDoctor'sMom
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If you look at the top of my screenshot you can see that I did this directly from their website.
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Huh. Wow. Pretty pompous with the whole sort of you must neuter or spay your dog unless you are a breeder of the highest caliber.If you look at the top of my screenshot you can see that I did this directly from their website.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And, for the official website of the DPCA, you'd think they would make sure there are no spelling errors.
TheDoctor'sMom
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Yep. When my husband read it to me a few months ago, I flipped out! They even go so far as to say that you can ask your vet for an earlier neuter/spay.
Doctor won't be getting neutered until he is 2, if I even have it done. I do want to get a female dobe, so I assume that a breeder will not be as likely to sell to a house with an intact male which is my only reason for doing the surgery.
I have to add this funny story. My daughter keeps trying to get me to let Doctor play with Molly, the neighbor's dog. I have to constantly remind her that Molly isn't spayed, and that there is no way that I am risking having some DoctorMollydobermutts running around! Now, we have friends that have a Malinios and their girl is named Molly as well. My husband was talking one day about getting Doctor and Molly together, and I started fussing at him about not wanting dobermutts, and he responded that they would be Dobinois, so they would be the fiercest protectors around. I asked him if he knew what Mals look like because the dog in the yard next door is most certainly not one. He laughed and said that he was talking about Mike's dog! Lol
Reasons I disagree that cropping Dobermans' ears is solely cosmetic:
Dobes tend to play rough. I have had my Dobes get into several scraps. All that ear leather flapping around out there would be a significant health liability.
The theory that when facing a human attacker, the Dobe's uncropped ears could be grabbed by the human who would then gain an advantage. Again, a liability. Bear in mind our breed is one of the few that was designed specifically to be a bodyguard. Many may not wish it to serve that purpose for them, but I do, and it is what the breed was designed to do.
I respect the heritage of the breed. I don't wish to have my own version of a Doberman. If I didn't want one of the best canine bodyguards in existence I would choose a different breed. Dobermans were designed to have cropped and standing ears. I buy into the breed, I buy into cropped and standing ears.
It makes sense to me that cropped and standing ears may stay cleaner. The cleanliness of ears varies naturally in individual dogs, as does the natural cleanliness of teeth. Some dogs have dirty ears that need frequent cleaning, some are the opposite. Cropped ears breathe better.
I have heard it argued, and I tend to agree, that cropped and standing ears can hear better. It makes some sense to me also that when Dobes rotate those ears toward sounds, if there is no ear flap hanging in the way, the hearing may be more acute.
Effectiveness as a watch dog / guard dog. Before you state the fairly obvious – a Doberman will not act differently based on whether it is cropped or not – yes, I get that (or at least I assume that). Bear in mind, though, that the overwhelming majority of a guard dog's job is accomplished through deterrent. An actual physical altercation almost never happens. One of the most awesome things about having a dog as a family member is that we have no idea how many times they have saved us from danger. Yes, an uncropped Doberman can still be very intimidating, but there is nothing quite like the appearance of cropped and standing ears to help a dog achieve the ultimate level of intimidating appearance. It is more than just "that dog looks tough!" It's viscerally powerful what it is like to have an extremely alert (as almost all Dobes are) dog look at you and to have those ears standing straight up at the same time. It not only says I am listening to you as well as looking at you. It says I am, with laser beam focus and white hot intensity, WATCHING YOU. Deterrent.
WiglWerm
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I would agree on the statement that Doberman's due in fact play rough, although I personally have never had an issue with ANY ear injuries due to this, and up until now I have always owned a pair. But point made. Though I have to bring up the Rottweiler, also a guard dog with similar ears...not cropped.
As far as cleanliness I have to say I think this one could go both ways...as I said earlier it seems if this were the case many hunting and water retrieval dogs would also have cropped ears....especially for breath-ability for water retrieval breeds. I see your point I just think if this were in fact true, those breeds that are in the woods and water would have been cropped at some point in the beginnings of their development as a breed.
This one I can not comment on...your point seems to make sense but I have no opinion either way as I have never heard this argument...I'll give you that one.
On this point I wholeheartedly agree, the look of the cropped Doberman has evolved from the scrappy mutts (No offense Louis, you did a great job) of Louis Dobermann, into a breed that literally takes my breath away. The cropping only adds to the dignified, stoic look of the Doberman. It is an International symbol of protection...I have always loved the look of a well cropped doberman. But in saying that...This is in fact COSMETIC ....the same loving, fearless, agile, protector is there cropped, or uncropped. Although he may not APPEAR to others as that, he will in fact if pushed, prove it.
Very thoughtful ideas!I would agree on the statement that Doberman's due in fact play rough, although I personally have never had an issue with ANY ear injuries due to this, and up until now I have always owned a pair. But point made. Though I have to bring up the Rottweiler, also a guard dog with similar ears...not cropped.
As far as cleanliness I have to say I think this one could go both ways...as I said earlier it seems if this were the case many hunting and water retrieval dogs would also have cropped ears....especially for breath-ability for water retrieval breeds. I see your point I just think if this were in fact true, those breeds that are in the woods and water would have been cropped at some point in the beginnings of their development as a breed.
This one I can not comment on...your point seems to make sense but I have no opinion either way as I have never heard this argument...I'll give you that one.
On this point I wholeheartedly agree, the look of the cropped Doberman has evolved from the scrappy mutts (No offense Louis, you did a great job) of Louis Dobermann, into a breed that literally takes my breath away. The cropping only adds to the dignified, stoic look of the Doberman. It is an International symbol of protection...I have always loved the look of a well cropped doberman. But in saying that...This is in fact COSMETIC ....the same loving, fearless, agile, protector is there cropped, or uncropped. Although he may not APPEAR to others as that, he will in fact if pushed, prove it.
On ear injuries: incurred in scraps with other dogs: I am not only talking about two or more Dobes playing or scrapping together. I am talking about fights with any other dogs. I wouldn't think my Dobe could wind up needing stitches on his anus but it happened. I can easily imagine an ear getting cut, and I have seen pictures posted by folks here of pieces missing from ears. I don't want that liability. I can, however understand that some folks have never had a problem with this. I will add on your example of the Rottweiler: The Rott's ears are quite a bit smaller, and are coupled with a much larger, rounder head. The amount of ear leather flapping around loose and away from the head/face is much less. On this note, it's a bit surprising that fighting and war dogs with massive heads and relatively small ears have been historically cropped. It lends credence to the theory that more ear leather is a liability in both fights with humans and with other animals.
On ear cleanliness: Hunting dogs that are worked in the field, as well as other dogs, may deal with periodic ear problems. I don't really know, except for the what I hear from @AresMyDobie regarding her past Golden. (Now, her Golden might have just been a dog prone to ear problems, and as such not a good example in this argument - no offense, AresMyDobie). I've never had to take my Doberman to the vet to treat an ear problem, nor have I done anything more than take a Q-tip and alcohol to them when they seem dirty or when he holds an ear down a bit making me think it's bothering him a bit. So, I don't really know for sure if having floppy ears does lead to more ear cleanliness/health problems. It makes sense to me that it could, and that would point to a non-cosmetic benefit of cropping. Now, were ear cleanliness the only reason for cropping, would I go through the major stress of cropping and posting? Probably not. One more point: I wonder if hunting breeds and the like have something in their breeding that has helped them adapt to their use and thus not suffer as much from dirty, moist ears. Really, to me, a Doberman should be expected to traverse many types of terrain, and operate in many types of environments in the execution of its job, including all the types of terrains and environments in which hunting/retrieving dogs operate (including traversing bodies of water
). I don't think, however, Dobermans have been worked all that often in such conditions through the generations, and as such I doubt any adaptation has occurred.Now, when you say that the deterrent factor that cropped and standing ears provide is cosmetic: It is in fact a cosmetic alteration; but it is a cosmetic alteration that serves a very real purpose and thus is not purely cosmetic. It is not done simply to gain a specific look just for the sake of the fact that folks may like the look. It enables the Doberman to perform its job better. Remember guarding and protecting consists almost exclusively of deterring.
I think all this great discussion on both sides of the "cosmetic" argument should be moved to ether a new thread, or added to on existing appropriate one. I think it's very important discourse for present and future users to have at hand. @MyBuddy , @JanS
TheDoctor'sMom
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I had this exact same thought. In fact, when I was younger, I thought that Rotties didn't have ears because they were so small. But, I will say that my aunt had one that had his ear ripped off from a pack of wild dogs one time, so I can't imagine what a dobes ear would have looked like after that encounter.
My golden spent a lot of time in the water. I would take him for walks or hikes and the second we'd come home and I'd unhook that lead he was off bounding into the pool to cool down. We don't have humid weather here thank goodness but after any sort of water fun I'd put something in his ears to evaporate the water fast. Ares loves the water and especially the pool or beach one good shake and out goes the water from his ears, never had an issue with it and never had to put anything in them to keep from infection. Same thing with my small dog Deegan never had an issue. Now maybe my golden was prone to things or maybe he wasn't it, but he was an incredible dog. It is just common sense that moist/ enclosed area would have more problems then an open one. I don't see what purpose floppy ears serve and in fact I think it hinders the dog.
Yes, I was thinking we were going way off the topic of Natural Ear Taping and thinking the same thing, @Oh Little Oji I'm not sure how much or which ones to 'drag' to another thread though.
@JanS Whadda think?
I'm not sure either since I haven't read this thread for quite a while but I'll go back a bit and look.
Edit: I did the best I could to find a splitting line so this new thread makes sense.
Hey, thanks, Jan! Really though, the topic of the discussion you moved is: Is Cropping Purely Cosmetic?
We were not just talking about hygiene.
Sorry to be annoying.
Rits
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As a floppy earred owner with 4 of my current and previous dogs, it depends on the dog as to whether they get infected. I do live in a humid area. 3 of the 4 love/loved water. 3 of the 4 had/have no issues with ear infections. Diet also plays a huge role, along with I imagine, genetics. The one dog that did get ear infections, though not chronic, had lots of hair in the ear. While I know its a very small sample, I don't think floppy ears cause as much issues as one might think and there's much more to it than being simply flopped.
Yep the vet clipped away the hair from my goldens ears so the could have more air but no thanks never ever ever again
As you all well know, cropping (and docking) is banned in the UK so there goes my right to choose whether to or not. If I had the choice then I believe I would most certainly have both procedures done. I will be honest and say, it would be both for the look and if I could reduce the risk of ear infection then so be it. I have the right to neuter, or to remove protruding dew claws, which is selective surgery....Anyhoo, I have no choice so floppy ears it is. And what gorgeous floppys, they are!
I have had two 'natural' boys and 1 boy who had natural ears but a docked tail (from a rescue centre-obviously pre-ban) and what I will say is that my docked boy always sat better (comfortable!) than my natural boys. Also, have you ever been whipped by a natural tail?! Boy, its hard as hell.
I have had two 'natural' boys and 1 boy who had natural ears but a docked tail (from a rescue centre-obviously pre-ban) and what I will say is that my docked boy always sat better (comfortable!) than my natural boys. Also, have you ever been whipped by a natural tail?! Boy, its hard as hell.
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