Expected Breeding Values tools- any insight

[JanS]

I think we covered this here, that WAE, WAC, ATT are all ideally done when closer to maturity?
And "with no prep or training".

I know for ATT they have to be at least a year old and it is a no prep or training test. Obviously they should be trained to walk nicely on a flat collar but as for practicing different scenarios, it should come from their natural temperament and the way they react and recover.

 

[Ravenbird]

Well, I meant to be positive without being too picky...there were a couple ROMs iirc, but yes, I agree, could be more. Look at @Kansadobe wins in UDC multiple years a few years back as a better example.

WAE is just show up and pass if you can. I think we covered this here, that WAE, WAC, ATT are all ideally done when closer to maturity?
And "with no prep or training".

Show dogs actually have an advantage as they get out and get socialized early to some extent by being around people dogs, handlers, judges...so one would expect more calm than another, amiright?

At least there are some LCs in Penney's line. They are getting her a Therapy dog title before breeding which is good PR for the breed, in the general public that may still view dobes as dangerous devil dogs from the movies

And I mean no disrespect for Penny, and definitely nice longevity in her lines, it is just a clear example that most of the very best champion show dogs comes from other CH show dogs, and that's where the breeders fear venturing out of their pedigree comfort zone. It's true the other way around too: Very few CH show dogs in good working protection dogs and few working line breeders want to skip over to show dogs. So the lines stay separate, the looks are not going to be the same, but for the most part working line dogs are not out of standard.

Yes, WAE (E for evaluation/test) WAC (title awarded if passed = Working Abilities Certificate) and ATT I think have a minimum age, I'd have to look it up. A UDC event they have TT's for puppies, older puppy age group, and adults, and test for temperaments appropriate for the age. The show dogs getting out and about and touched by strangers and judges absolutely helps their social skills, and any ATT should be passed easily. The WAE has gunshot and other sharp noises and the boogy man threat - which is what should not rattle a Doberman temperament, but you may not expect a Yorkie to handle - thus it being a breed test for Dobermans only. The noises and stranger danger have to be addressed and the dog totally recovers from. I don't think there are any public stats on it, but I think most of the failures of the one I attended were the gunshot and the boogy man. And I'll be honest, at age 1 or 2 Asha was still not warm to any stranger and barely tolerated them touching her, but a lot of training and exposure she is neutral now. She absolutely would never make a therapy dog.

 

[BGpa]

I agree with you up to a point. Even a CD is just basic manners, just as Fast Cat is basic prey drive and Trick Dog Novice is basic-basic obedience. But here we are with GCH dogs that don't even do that for fear of not being able to or being made fun of. That's the show-snob world and turns more people away from trying to train and have fun than it attracts. Every CD on a show dog could hook the owner on sports and same with Rally Novice or Fast Cat. The whole point of the original presentation is to get conformation people into doing/proving that their dogs (esp the working breeds!) and once they do a little they are apt to want to go further. It's truly a point-chasing mentality and training to higher titles can be addictive if you have the ways and means and a good dog. This is what I want to encourage. If we were to build on that original suggestion to to the 100-point dog, we could add only 2 or 3 points for novice levels and 5 - 10 points for intermediate or higher levels. You see the titles on my dog in my signature - a jack of all trades and master of none. I got a dog bred for IGP thinking (wrongly) that I could do obedience & tracking myself and go to club for protection. Well the closest club is almost 4 hours away, Covid came along and shut me down, I'm in the middle of nowhere and had some online training, but I was basically left in the dust. Long story short, I dabbled in learning new things, tested & trialed in what I could, passed everything fairly easily but as soon as the bar was lifted, I couldn't do much without a teacher. BH was my highlight and my dog still goes to a few bite training sessions with helpers, just because she and I both love it. It's f'n hard! I hand anyone who gets out and trials or tests under a non-partial judge a gold star for getting out there. I've seen how hard people work to get their dogs in the conformation ring. It's not my bag, but I know it's a lot of work and extremely hard to do and succeed at, esp as an owner/handler. I'm not saying you're wrong, these basic titles are (or should be) easy to obtain with little effort. That's the whole point. Get these show dogs and show people a whiff of training that's fairly easy and loads of fun for them AND the dog - and they'll be more likely to proceed to the next level. The bonus is, if they realize their GCH show dog doesn't have the nerve or the physical or the inborn talent to do what they see other "ugly" dogs doing with ease, they just may try breeding their "almost there" bitch to a dog that they admire in the sports field.

As long as the sports and the show divisions get wider and wider, the two will never be able to see eye to eye. The first time I ever saw a working lab, it was a puppy at our IGP club that was in the RH (SAR for Sport titles) training. I'd never seen a more active, drivey, happy puppy in my life. Just like a Mal without bitey or OCD tendencies. I had to ask what it was, I honestly had no idea. Working line lab. I was impressed and I had no idea they even existed. I just thought the plan above was soft enough that the show people might be swayed, but as soon as they are criticized or belittled for having gone out and done "just basics" they'll bale out.

Just know I agree with you on the facts, but do think that having novice titles and most of all, venturing out and having fun and thrills with your dog should be highly encouraged for everyone to just get out and try.

Just dropping in to share an example from lab world, of one famous US breeders effort to maintain the functional breed purpose in labs:

Kerrybrook Dual Purpose Labradors

kerrybrook.com

Good looks AND field performance.

H/t from a mod at a UK lab webforum

 

[BGpa]

Quick update, and making this its own titled post in public forum so it can be found by search engines, AI for anyone curious about how its used in dobe breeding.

Background: I stumbled on this at BetterBred who developed this, and it ises the same trsting as UCDavis' VGL in the breeder tool for Canine Diversity.

The idea is that it allows for better genetic planning in selecting dogs in future litters.

After pestering the other forum, got an answer from @Kansadobe there- a very respected long time breeder, competitor and winner on both sides confo and working, who imports dogs/sperm from the EU, and SA lines to improve the US genes.
You could go there to read, or also see @Rits reply who I paraphrase- its very good but only so good as breadth of data and need more breeders to buy in and share...

So, when I got exposed to a couple other breed forums by VS global dog park experiment, I asked at a couple and found some very smart folk at the GS forum-

With Guide Dog and MWD experience- who opined same- its very useful if you have a large breeding operation and have access to data...

And a cattle rancher and dog breeder says she uses EBV on her cattle.

So, just a dog nerd update.
Maybe it might come in handy in future...

Back to more deep reading and research on "next dog", the Spare/Backup to BYB Bonnie a couple 3 years as next SD as needed....

Still noodling on dober crosses and other breeds fit to the task by diagnosis as SD. Ot makes no common sense and worse ROI on any SD candidate that takes at least 1.5 years to be basic trained (longer in some breeds or if you DIY as owner) and then spend another 00.5 ti 2.0 year in advanved training of the team in tasks to need, to get a "full up round" As SD...
So if that time and expense ends in wash out of training or early retirement from something like DCM in dobes, cancers in labs, weak nerves an DM in overbred GSDs...
Then you are back to starting point...

So we as informed customers drive improvement by demand, both in basic breed health and documented proof of trsining to task just like in confo and sport or working functional dog training.

Form follows function.
If you create demand- for a better product by education, supplywill follow.
Its how a free market works.

So I may be much more quiet (i know: "thank god" right!) as I do more reading elsewhere doing deep dive on breeders search.
Plus homehoneydos...
Big move ahead.

...but will drop in to share what I am curious about in how to read pedigree, shop breeders, and ask about best practices in using tools and documenting results including health tests.

I'm hoping some of the conversation about Penny and the Chans use of same sparks more interest which drives eyeballs here and the other forum as discriminating shoppers ask more of breeders, and show up here adking wuestions...
so the up and coming breeeders doing the good work like @Rits get recognition, vs just same old stale suggestion to the "closed by cartel club" recommended referral lists.

And help first timers to know how to screen out the IG/Tiktok scammers, BYBs and the not so good puppy farmsrs who pay to get listed on AKC Marketplace for the illusion of credibility but dont actually follow best practices on early puppy training during critical learning, health testing, documenting, or offering proof on paper to buyers when asked.

Take it easy, y'all and of course feel free to reply with advice opinions and corrections as needed.

Bump on this with an update:
No luck pressing the button on IWDF site to give permission here:

Post in thread 'Doberman Cross Breeding Project'

Yesterday at 12:04 PM

Interesting comment in a discussion on FKC Doberman Outcross project -was looking for updates...nothing new here:

Crossbreeding Project for the Dobermann in Finland

The Dobermann is an active and energetic breed that is also highly versatile as a hobby and working dog. The breed was originally developed as a utility and service dog in Germany in the late 19th century. It was founded from only a small number of individuals, and as a result, the breed’s gene...

www.kennelliitto.fi

For context; Here is some old discussion on outcrossing at FKC

More on crossbreeding in Finland

More on crossbreeding in Finland Pinscher Kromfohrländer Due to interest in my previous post on Instructions for Crosses Between Breeds , I have been asked to provide some more information. At the moment, we have two crossbreeding projects going on in Finland: one in the Pinscher and another in t...

dogwellnet.com

And I stumbled on this tidbit (screenshots)

The name Dr Boyko caught my interest and Robin Loreth reference to doberman and giant schnauzer near "same genetics"...
Shout out to
@Nordika ?
What say you?



and here...

• BGpa

Maybe that site is in work, backed up but I'll start a new thread so anyone interested can follow in that: "how to share embark data from DDP to IWDR...