Doberman Image. A Good Or A Bad Thing?

[DocReverto]

To clarify, the term "devil dogs" comes from the ferocity of US soldiers in WW1. The enemy was documented saying they fought with such ferocity that they were likened to dogs from hell. Calling a marine a devil dog is considered an insult, unless used sarcastically from one member to another.

 

[DocReverto]

When referenced to a dog, it is the Bulldog.

To call a Doberman a "devil dog" would not be technically incorrect since they are considered soldiers of war, but they were never assigned that name.

 

[Dobie Wan Knobie]

With images like this, on both sides of the pond, in the publics eye the perception of the public will not change. This IS what a working Doberman does, and if people do not understand this then they will interpret this photo, and all the others like it, in how their understanding has been conditioned by the PTB - and this type of image supports that conditioning.
So even if a few people pet your dog at the park, this is what is in their brain, and how they will perceive the Doberman.

 

[Dobs4ever]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s48Mf3i-nFY
- this one always makes me cry - this is the rich history of our Doberman war heros.

http://www.blitzkrieger.com/breedhistory.html "The Doberman was the official combat dog of the U.S Marine Corps in World War 11. Often called "devil dogs" , they served as sentries, messengers and scouts, facing full battle conditions with their handlers."

With images like this, on both sides of the pond, in the publics eye the perception of the public will not change.

If that is true then why aren't the GSD perceived that way???

 

[Dobie Wan Knobie]

Because we are talking about "changing" the perception. GSD didn't have the super negative conditioning to begin with like a Doberman has. The were no movies made about evil GSD's robbing a bank. I mean Rin Tin Tin was a hero, and that is the image imprinted in the public's eye.

Let's face it...the Doberman is a dog that is perceived to bite first and ask questions later. That is what the majority of people think.

 

[Gelcoater]

Gel - I did not read where anyone did anything bad or called them names - we addressed the issue and those who really want to learn and grow listen and those who don't really want to learn get all upset and take it personal even though it was not.

- We gave solid advise on how to correct it and the good news is it appears that they care. When people give tips that are not a good technique in any real training situation we simply stated our opinion nothing personal. BECAUSE WE CARE.

I didn't imply there was any name calling?
We're on the same page,the ones that want to learn are here to learn,and they're getting advise.I just feel bad for the dogs and owners of those that never come here for the advise.

 

[Gelcoater]

If that is true then why aren't the GSD perceived that way???

I think we're seeing that perception changing right now.
It brings us to the essence of CRD post only we're applying it to the GSD.
As more and more video surfaces of instances like we saw at the Bundy ranch earlier this month as an example,the perception is changing.On another note there are probably a bunch of examples of misidentifying a breed,like we see with many of the "pitbull attack" stories.You know,story breaks of a pitbull attack,goes viral then low and behold it was a Cain Corso or Presa.No one remembers that part just the pitbull part.
Here we're probably going to see Mals mistaken for GSD's by the novice eye.
People today who aren't into dogs would likely be just as intimidated by a GSD as a Doberman just because they've seen a K-9 police GS in action tearing ass on the 5 o'clock news.

 

[dobelover419]

There is not such thing as a minature doberman - the Min Pin was a breed 300 years BEFORE the Doberman. They may have some small common ancestry but they are not considered related. Many people think that they are min dobermans and there is no such thing. There is only ONE Doberman.[/QUOTE]


indeed. I think I read somewhere, the dobie and min pin only share the german pinscher. I've had people borderline argue with me about it, it's funny sometimes. Like those Breeding white dobermans, they want to believe what they want and trying to talk facts with them is like talking to a brick wall. The Doberman is just one of these breeds that stir people up sometimes.

 

[DocReverto]

Here ya guys go if you need sources. Im sure Marinegeekswife will chime in on the validity of the devil dog saying.
As much as it would be cool if it were true, its still an awesome referrence to our brave soldiers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_Dog

This quote is from the USMC site.
Devil Dogs: The German Army coined this term of respect for U.S. Marines during World War I. In the summer of 1918 the German Army was driving toward Paris. The French Army was in full retreat. In a desperate effort to save Paris, the newly arrived U.S. Marines were thrown into the breach. In June 1918, in bitter fighting lasting for weeks, Marines repeatedly repulsed the Germans in Belleau Wood. The German drive toward Paris sputtered, fizzled, and died. Then the Marines attacked and swept the Germans back out of Belleau Wood. Paris had been saved. The tide of war had turned. Five months later Germany would be forced to accept an armistice. The battle tenacity and fury of the U.S. Marines had stunned the Germans. In their official reports they called the Marines "teufel hunden," meaning Devil Dogs, the ferocious mountain dogs of Bavarian folklore.

 

[Judith]

without me having to go look it up is our Manchester Terrier the same as your Min Pin ???????? just wondering as they look the same
Manchester terrier

 

[Dobs4ever]

There is no doubt the Doberman earned his reputation - but not from bite work - It was deep seated in the origins of the original dogs Dobermann bred and in the War effort. That perhaps forever cemented their reputation. Today not many have seen any dog working in protection. In fact I remember with it was considered something you did in hiding. ROFLOL

No the Manchester Terrier is a separate breed.

 

[Judith]

thanks Susan

 

[Dobie Wan Knobie]

There is no doubt the Doberman earned his reputation - but not from bite work - It was deep seated in the origins of the original dogs Dobermann bred and in the War effort. That perhaps forever cemented their reputation. Today not many have seen any dog working in protection. In fact I remember with it was considered something you did in hiding. ROFLOL

No the Manchester Terrier is a separate breed.

Please read again: I did not say the Doberman earned its reputation from bite work. All I am eluding to is that the imagery of the modern working Doberman doing bite work does continue to contribute to people in general thinking that Dobermans are mean dogs that will bite anyone, and just about everyone they come across. The public does not understand the photos that are posted all over Facebook, and wherever else, and this imagery is difficult to overcome in telling people that Dobermans are not the Devil Dogs they believe them to be. Someone sees a photo of a Doberman doing bite work, and because of their conditioned beliefs over the years, they think this is what all Dobermans do, and will do at any given moment. It is, and will be, a long and winding road to re-educate the public that Dobermans are not the Devil Dogs of the past.

When we got our last Doberman, 10 years ago, my boss was so afraid that he was going to attack, and maybe kill, our kids and grand kids. The fear on her face, and her husbands too, was unbelievable. And there were others like them in this deep seated belief. They thought we were crazy for having a Doberman in our family, as did many others. And even after those 10 years, and getting to know Caesar, people just thought we were lucky he didn't turn on us and attack us. What do you think photos of Dobermans doing bite work would have done to them if they had seen them? It would have been proof to them of their Belief. I'm just making an observation here, as I have dealt with this issue for many years. I used to never see photos of Dobermans doing bite work, now I see them all the time. And I really don't think people's perceptions about Dobermans is going to change any time soon. And that may be a good thing IDK.

Why is the AKC watering down the Doberman standard, and making the Doberman sound like such a nice companion dog? Why is there such a riff between Doberman owners in which way the temperament should be going?
Why are Euros so different from American Dobes?
Why do the Europeans want nothing to do with the American Dobes - but yet Americans want Euros?

There is a reason for all of this! And the perception of what a Doberman is, and should be, is a big part of it.

 

[Marinegeekswife]

Here ya guys go if you need sources. Im sure Marinegeekswife will chime in on the validity of the devil dog saying.
As much as it would be cool if it were true, its still an awesome referrence to our brave soldiers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_Dog

This quote is from the USMC site.
Devil Dogs: The German Army coined this term of respect for U.S. Marines during World War I. In the summer of 1918 the German Army was driving toward Paris. The French Army was in full retreat. In a desperate effort to save Paris, the newly arrived U.S. Marines were thrown into the breach. In June 1918, in bitter fighting lasting for weeks, Marines repeatedly repulsed the Germans in Belleau Wood. The German drive toward Paris sputtered, fizzled, and died. Then the Marines attacked and swept the Germans back out of Belleau Wood. Paris had been saved. The tide of war had turned. Five months later Germany would be forced to accept an armistice. The battle tenacity and fury of the U.S. Marines had stunned the Germans. In their official reports they called the Marines "teufel hunden," meaning Devil Dogs, the ferocious mountain dogs of Bavarian folklore.

Yes, this is my understanding of the origins of the term Devil Dog. However I have NEVER heard that the term is considered an insult if coming from someone other than a fellow Marine. Now, sometimes higher ranking Marines will call out another Marine for doing something wrong, often using the term Devil Dog in the process thus these instances are called Devil Dogging. That's the closest I've ever heard of it coming to an insult. Marines are proud of the nickname. (And for the record, you're going to be considered far more insulting by referring to a Marine as a "soldier".)

 

[agift4me]

Actually, I think they are like any other breed of dog. Not everyone is suited to have a dog and not any breed is suitable for people.
I believe dog admirers/fancier should do their homework before becoming a dog owner.
Dogs and other animals are a big responsibility and ownership should not be taken for granted. Unfortunately too many people pick the wrong breed for the wrong reasons and the poor dog sufferers the ultimate consequences. People need to get educated and have common sense before getting that puppy in the window.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Why is the AKC watering down the Doberman standard, and making the Doberman sound like such a nice companion dog? Why is there such a riff between Doberman owners in which way the temperament should be going?
Why are Euros so different from American Dobes?
Why do the Europeans want nothing to do with the American Dobes - but yet Americans want Euros?

AKC in 1989 took a hard stand on Schutzhund and banned it from their shows. They did this in a misguided effort to counter BSL and what they saw as the budding war here on working breeds. That caused a big rift between AKC/DPCA and the working dog handlers so some of them split and formed UDC to continue the heritage of the Doberman as a working dog. You do not help people understand anything by hiding it. Once people are actually exposed to it and learn they see that it is a sport and it is also a big part of the training for the police dogs. But we allowed the wrong message to go out and then we tried to hide it which only caused more suspicion and legend.

As society changed and breeders only focused on conformation - temperaments did suffer to a point but there are still great dogs everywhere. If all the litters born today were top working dogs one of two things would happen - Not enough working homes and a lot of those dogs would be returned or dumped because the no longer in contact with our animals side world would not be able to handle them and the reputation would be even worse.

For the breed to succeed it must be adaptable. Conformation folks don't focus on the working aspects. It is more about the beauty pageant which is one aspect. I am just not sure the working breeds were ever meant to be "beauty queens", but you have to admit the Doberman has come a long long way from the original look of Herr Dobermanns dogs and that is a very good thing as they were certainly not appealing in appearance.

Then add to it way back in the beginning we did not have the experienced trainers here to train many of the dobermans while over there every little hamlet has a working dog club just about and the trainers to keep it alive. Vision and the differences in the Euro culture and our culture are the basic contributing factors in the difference of the direction the dogs went. Different people - different vision - different results.

The Europeans do not care for the American dogs - why a big part is COMPETITION - They are the originators of the breed and it would be hard with ego being what it is to let anyone trump you. Back in the 60's and prior we did have some crossing of lines but not today. Americans had one vision and a big part is due to the lack of quality training here for many years. American had to go over there or bring a trainer here - conformation was easy and easily available here. But you are here or there both agree that the conformation dogs on either side of the pond are not strong in work ethic. It is the same with the GSD or any dog that has a strong conformation foundation. When you only focus on one aspect of an breed others will be lost.

Good points and if you study the history a lot is buried there- First all the myths about Dobermans - brain outgrowing their skull and they turn on their owners. The "Warlock" Doberman - and then Hollywood as it usually portrays them as snarling and vicious. These urban myths have done much to create the illusion of the bad doberman. Then their reputation in the war, no one is arguing that the marines used the "devil dog" as a symbol of their ferocity. And it followed right down to their dogs according many of the old stories of the war dogs. I was at the 2008 centennial - I met the 11 remaining War dog handlers - I have the book signed by each and every one and in the centennial War Dog book where they refer to the dogs as "devil dogs" just as the marines are referred to. It was stated in an interview in 1942 with that the dog were referred to as "devil dogs." From there it stuck just as their motto "Semper Fidelis" Always faithful is engraved on the war memorial in Guam. On page 30 of the DPCA Centennial war dog book it says _ DPCA Dobermans ...the REAL Deal "Devil Dogs". On page 22 in an Interview with Walter Marx her recalls that his dog Duke arrived in a crate marked "Devil Dog" on the side. so this is how nick names come to stick and how the dogs were referred to as "devil dogs" just as their counter parts the great marines that they served. It is funny how names stick and carry on down through the ages. While on new people these original stories may have been lost there are still a few who remember and the legend lives on. We must past this rich heritage down to the new folks coming in so they have a solid foundation to carry on the work of those who went before and paved the way.

 

[GennyB]

I met the 11 remaining War dog handlers - I have the book signed by each and every one and in the centennial War Dog book where they refer to the dogs as "devil dogs"

How cool is that??
I have taken Drake and Greta to the VA hospital where we met an old guy that used to ask me "Where did you get that devil dog?" Everybody was saying "devil dog" what are you talking about? So he told the story of how the dobe got their name as devil dog. Neat story.

 

[DocReverto]

Devil dog didn't originate fromDobermans D4E. See posts above. I'm sure they were called that at one point after it's inception, but it's another rumor in our breed. That term was not coined in the Dobermans honor. Rather the soldiers of WW1 who died protecting our freedoms.


MGW I'm not sure if it's considered it an insult everywhere.
I do remember being in Oceanside with my friend (who is a marine) and his buddies from his unit. We hit a bar where an army dude passing through said "whats up devil dogs" they beat that poor man to an inch of his life for it.
But they called eachother devil dogs all night. I made sure not to say it to one of them haha.

 

[Dobs4ever]

I never said it did - if you read what I wrote I said the name that the marines used was picked up and carried to the dogs.

I'm sure they were called that at one point after it's inception, but it's another rumor in our breed. That term was not coined in the Dobermans honor. Rather the soldiers of WW1 who died protecting our freedoms.

This is basically what I said. And by reading the history you will learn that it is not just a rumor. So not sure what point you are missing.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Here's a link you might also like to read - http://doberman-chat.com/community/threads/the-original-devil-dogs.227/

Dobie Wan also fits in with some of the questions you asked which were excellent questions.