Doberman head and body shapes?

People say all dobermans have different head and body shapes and need a specific shape to be in the show ring. What exactly are the differences between the different shapes and how can someone tell? I'm very curious as to how breeders are able to say "this dog has a very nice head" or "his head is ok but body is very nice!". Can people post pictures of examples of the different shapes? I want to determine what type my dobie has!

Thanks! :)
 
While there is a standard that breeders should aim for some of it comes down to an individuals taste. I would never make a good judge because the things I like are not necessarily the standard.
Take a look at the thread @Rits mentioned above and then this thread Crop Pics - Lets see your style! where there are lots of head shots and see if you can see it. Might be a fun experiment for you.
 
If you are interested in learning about breed standard and type, peruse the DPCA website. Another good read is The Doberman Illustrated Standard. I will go see if I can find some links for you.

Dobermans have a breed standard. As show breeders, we aim for the standard listed and strive to keep that standard and type going. We use it as a blueprint for our breeding decisions. We want what is closest to type and standard. When we say a dog has a nice head, we mean it's nice and standard....it's a pretty head.

If you want pictures of dogs to compare to learn from, we can use mine :)
Also feel free to post pics of your boy's head and we can talk about it. He appears to have a nice head in the pics you posted in your size thread. Is he a show prospect?

Btw. The bitch in my avatar photo has a perfect head and front. It's ideal.
 
A very good question and nice idea for a thread!

It's been my understanding (and Archer alluded to this) that a "nice" head or body refers to it adhering closely to the written breed standard. This is what conformation shows (the "dog shows" everybody's familiar with) should be about – judging the dogs based on how close they come to the breed standard. Of course, as in any judged event, personal opinion comes into play. Politics and even corruption also come into play when it comes to handing out points, championships, placements and awards.

So, I believe in the breed standard – or at least I have historically. It supposedly describes the ideal Doberman Pinscher and the ultimate-performing Doberman. Every size, every proportion and every angle has a purpose. The Doberman is supposed to be the ideal combination of strength, speed and agility.

That said, It is peculiar to me that the Dobes that excel at athletic dog sports often do not conform to the breed standard very well. Look at the Dobes that are well-suited to the sprinting and sharp turns on the IPO fields and they don't have "nice" bodies. I see a lot of top lines that are arched and tails that are set on too low. With my previous Dobe, I commented on how the dam was cow-hocked (so was the boy I got out of her). The breeder got defensive and said something like "You ask about being cow-hocked, but look at them move!" She was right! They were very fast and agile and sturdy.

Finally, I will say that while I think Dobes that meet the AKC standard are quite beautiful, I tend to prefer a lot of what I see from good breeders in Europe. These Dobermanns tend toward the heavier, blockier bodies and heads. Now, this can be taken too far and I then look at that Dobe and say that's not what a Dobe is supposed to be.
 
It's interesting to discuss conformation and how it relates to an ideal body type and then often we notice a difference when it comes to working animals vs conformation. I see this in horses, especially the western breeds like QH, Paint and Appy, a great deal. There is the halter horse, which is supposed to optimize conformation ideals, but often, these horses don't move well and many are never broken to saddle. Then you have the pleasure and english pleasure bred horses which are built entirely different, and finally the working horses like cutting which again have a different body type. Even in english styles of riding you will see a different type for hunter, jumper, dressage, etc... but the differences are smaller compared to the western ones.

So what really makes up the ideal? Form should follow function IMHO unless the breed really has no function beyond lap dog. But even then, soundness of movement leading to a longer lived life as a pet, would strike me as an ideal to have in a dog. Purposely breeding breathing and soundness issues into an animal seems counter intuitive to me but yet it happens.

Currently Nero has a snipey head. His nose is pointy and he has a slight overbite. His teeth don't scissor well like in an ideal head. I'm not sure if this will be something he grows out of or not, and I have my doubts. But I noticed he marked the other day at the dog park so he probably has some hormones kicking in. I have noticed he has filled out below the eyes and in the jowl, so has a nice wedge from the front now. I wouldn't call him an optimum specimen of his breed, but he's definitely doberman to look at. :) He's my boy, even at 430am when I'm trying to sleep a little longer!
 
It's interesting to discuss conformation and how it relates to an ideal body type and then often we notice a difference when it comes to working animals vs conformation. I see this in horses, especially the western breeds like QH, Paint and Appy, a great deal. There is the halter horse, which is supposed to optimize conformation ideals, but often, these horses don't move well and many are never broken to saddle. Then you have the pleasure and english pleasure bred horses which are built entirely different, and finally the working horses like cutting which again have a different body type. Even in english styles of riding you will see a different type for hunter, jumper, dressage, etc... but the differences are smaller compared to the western ones.

So what really makes up the ideal? Form should follow function IMHO unless the breed really has no function beyond lap dog. But even then, soundness of movement leading to a longer lived life as a pet, would strike me as an ideal to have in a dog. Purposely breeding breathing and soundness issues into an animal seems counter intuitive to me but yet it happens.

Currently Nero has a snipey head. His nose is pointy and he has a slight overbite. His teeth don't scissor well like in an ideal head. I'm not sure if this will be something he grows out of or not, and I have my doubts. But I noticed he marked the other day at the dog park so he probably has some hormones kicking in. I have noticed he has filled out below the eyes and in the jowl, so has a nice wedge from the front now. I wouldn't call him an optimum specimen of his breed, but he's definitely doberman to look at. :) He's my boy, even at 430am when I'm trying to sleep a little longer!
Some time ago, I started a thread entitled "Is Snipey Snipey For Life?"
 
Interesting! Thanks @Oh Little Oji! So have you found 2 years later that not much has changed?
Well, Oji's still snipey, sadly. He sure looks a lot better than those pup photos I posted in that thread though. I think that his being male has helped some. there is some flew there that makes up a bit for the snipe. I wouldn't want one of the females from the litter. Well heck, I don't even want him! :groan:
 
Form should always follow function. A dog that moves properly should theoretically have proper conformation. We as conformation breeders breed to produce dogs to the standard we abhold to. A Doberman should not be large, or too thick or boxy. They should be muscular, agile, athletic and be able to jump through the open window of a car with ease. I will spare my personal opinions of the EU bred versus NA bred Dobermans in this thread as it should be used for education and should never manifest into a pissing match. Standards between the two types are similar

Discussing Doberman standard in NA is a lot of information. It's easier to go over specific regions individually in detail and then move on to the next. Otherwise you lose that detail and can't touch on specifics. Since you have been asking about heads Apollo's Dobermom, we can start there?

What you guys are seeing with differences in conformation and workability is the fact that most (not all) show breeders breed for form and function and tempermeant, not workability. They should breed for both! It is especially important for working dogs to have proper conformation, as working a body without proper structure can and will fail. They typically fail more quickly due to stress and strain on abnormal bones/joints. The working breeders breed for workability.

Some snipey puppies will grow out of their snipeyness. Some don't. At 6-9 weeks Aria was snipey. She has an ideal head now.

Head is one of the most important elements that define breed type. The head should be long and dry, resembling a blunt wedge in both frontal and profile views. When seen from the front, the head widens gradually toward the base of the ears in an unbroken line.

Eyes are almond shaped. Moderately deep set with vigorous, energetic expression. Iris should be uniform in color. They are medium to darkest brown in blacks. In reds, blues and fawns the color of the iris blends with the markings. The darkest color is preferred in every case. Expression should convey the image portrayed in the standard: energetic, watchful, determined, alert, fearless. Expression should be a look of intensity which should encompass the entire look of the dog. It is typically referred to as "the look of eagles"

Ears are normally cropped and carried erect. Upper attachment of the ear when held correctly is is on level with the top of the skull.

Planes of the head: top of skull flat turning with slight stop to bridge of muzzle with muzzle line extending parallel to top line of skull. Cheeks flat and muscular. Lips lying close to jaws.
Muzzle length should be equal to length of back of skull. Skull/muzzle straight and flat. Cheeks are flat. Ears are erect with straight edges.

Mouth: scissor bite (Lower incisors upright and touching inside of upper inscisors)42 correctly placed teeth (22 lower and 20 upper). DQ are four or more missing teeth, overshot of more than 3/16" or undershot more than 1/8".

This is a perfectly correct head. We can comment on the pictures because they are my dogs ;)
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Different dog. Also mine. This is also a correct head, although she is slightly too wet in the mouth in this first picture, but she is not normally
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Same dog
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Beautiful masculine head
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Good example of the difference between a bitch and dog head
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Would it be okay to post a few pics of Nero's head and get your opinion? He wont ever be shown in conformation so it's just for personal info and he's uncropped.
 
Would it be okay to post a few pics of Nero's head and get your opinion? He wont ever be shown in conformation so it's just for personal info and he's uncropped.
Like Jan said, of course! Anyone can.

Everyone, please know that this thread is for the sake of education and any critiquing we do will be for that purpose. Thanks :)
 
We can pick on Archer a little....

He actually has a decent head. Long blunt, wedge. Slightly dry, a little too wet. He has good stop. Eyes are almond shaped, but are slightly too light in color. Ear set is decent. He has a slight roman nose and lacks some underjaw. He also should have more an angle from nose to jaw. He has a full mouth with a correct scissor bite. He is red, so his nose is liver. I love his clown markings. His are clean and separate and not a peninsula. Both are correct btw. He has well defined markings on his head.

Archer conformationally has a decent head. His issues are elsewhere. Love him no matter!!

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