Blue Lacy dog breed

[Ravenbird]

I'd heard of Blue Lacys when I lived in Texas, but never had an interest in them. I knew them as "ranch dogs", never knew any personally, never thought about them.

Then last week we had our water well worked on and the guy brought his dog, said it was half Doberman half Blue Lacy. In 5 minutes I wanted one. I thought at first that the intelligence I was seeing was from the Doberman in him, but it was somehow different. After they left I had to go to the internet and went down several rabbit holes on the breed and seems like the one I met was very much like the BL description, more so than fitting a Doberman description. The more I read about them the more enchanted I became. Only drawback for me is I'm not fond of dilute colors and I'm getting up in years where I'm wondering if I could stay sane with another dog that "needs a job". But mainly I was thinking if I was 30 years younger this would be a perfect cross to help the health of the Doberman. As I've mentioned about breeding, like to like works better to develop traits you want whether physical or temperamental, opposite traits bred together tend to get extremely unpredictable. This dog has the right kind of physical body (including high-set ears that appear to want to stand), built to go all day long with lots of drive whether herding or trailing or hunting - they seem to have no quit. Highly intelligent, sounds much like training a Doberman, needing boundaries and clear leadership or they will be a mess. As a breed they've been "out there" for 100+ years, but just closed the books on them in the 1980's, so unlike other AKC breeds that have had closed books for 100 years, these dogs can have a variety of mixed blood in them from as recently as 50 years ago. Talk about diversity! It is not recognized by AKC, it has very few published breeders, so I don't know if the gene pool is getting smaller really quickly or if the few breeders are keeping diversity in mind.

Since they are complete naturals with nose work they have been catching the eye of Search & Rescue people. I'm pretty impressed with everything I've read about them so far.

Here's a link for fun - Blue Lacy Traits If you go to the main page of that link there are some great photos.






Here's the BL/Dobe X that I met - his dam was a blue Doberman, he didn't say what color the BL sire was. This boy is 8 years old and has several fatty tumors commonly seen in Dobes, but his intense gaze was all about engaging with him in a game with the stick.

 

[JanS]

This is very interesting and I didn't realize the breed was that small until I looked them up. I do like the life expectancy and I wonder how that equates being mixed with a Doberman.

 

[Ravenbird]

I do like the life expectancy and I wonder how that equates being mixed with a Doberman.

My opinion only, but Dobermans have a shorter lifespan because of heretiable diseases and the higher the COI in any breed the more they tend to get whatever trends most in their breed, whether it's DCM or hip dysplasia or cancer or whatever. So you find a breed like this that had no closed books from the 1800's to the 1980's they have pretty diverse backgrounds and longer healthier lives. I'm sure the mix might carry Dobe health traits but it sure won't get doubled up on them with a complete outcross. The one I met had at least 5 or 6 of those fatty tumors which you see in older Dobes all the time. Asha has a couple already and she's only 6. I can only find a few breeder websites and none mention health testing.

 

[JanS]

I can only find a few breeder websites and none mention health testing.

I wonder if many even do health testing when it isn't a recognized AKC breed. Not saying that all dogs shouldn't have health testing before they're bred but if you're breeding a non registered dog, maybe it isn't their first priority.

 

[BGpa]

I'd heard of Blue Lacys when I lived in Texas, but never had an interest in them. I knew them as "ranch dogs", never knew any personally, never thought about them.

Then last week we had our water well worked on and the guy brought his dog, said it was half Doberman half Blue Lacy. In 5 minutes I wanted one. I thought at first that the intelligence I was seeing was from the Doberman in him, but it was somehow different. After they left I had to go to the internet and went down several rabbit holes on the breed and seems like the one I met was very much like the BL description, more so than fitting a Doberman description. The more I read about them the more enchanted I became. Only drawback for me is I'm not fond of dilute colors and I'm getting up in years where I'm wondering if I could stay sane with another dog that "needs a job". But mainly I was thinking if I was 30 years younger this would be a perfect cross to help the health of the Doberman. As I've mentioned about breeding, like to like works better to develop traits you want whether physical or temperamental, opposite traits bred together tend to get extremely unpredictable. This dog has the right kind of physical body (including high-set ears that appear to want to stand), built to go all day long with lots of drive whether herding or trailing or hunting - they seem to have no quit. Highly intelligent, sounds much like training a Doberman, needing boundaries and clear leadership or they will be a mess. As a breed they've been "out there" for 100+ years, but just closed the books on them in the 1980's, so unlike other AKC breeds that have had closed books for 100 years, these dogs can have a variety of mixed blood in them from as recently as 50 years ago. Talk about diversity! It is not recognized by AKC, it has very few published breeders, so I don't know if the gene pool is getting smaller really quickly or if the few breeders are keeping diversity in mind.

Since they are complete naturals with nose work they have been catching the eye of Search & Rescue people. I'm pretty impressed with everything I've read about them so far.

Here's a link for fun - Blue Lacy Traits If you go to the main page of that link there are some great photos.



View attachment 158493


Here's the BL/Dobe X that I met - his dam was a blue Doberman, he didn't say what color the BL sire was. This boy is 8 years old and has several fatty tumors commonly seen in Dobes, but his intense gaze was all about engaging with him in a game with the stick.

View attachment 158494View attachment 158495View attachment 158496

VERY intriguing!
I like functional dogs bred for a job, especially with attention to good health:

"Developed for generations to meet ranchers and hunters’ requirements, they are sturdy enough to withstand tough terrain, difficult working conditions, and both hot and cold weather by Texan standards. However, skin problems and food allergies can occur. Color dilution alopecia is very rare, but occurs in Lacys. Note: Any diagnosed genetic disorder is a disqualifying fault,"

 

[BGpa]

VERY intriguing!
I like functional dogs bred for a job, especially with attention to good health:

"Developed for generations to meet ranchers and hunters’ requirements, they are sturdy enough to withstand tough terrain, difficult working conditions, and both hot and cold weather by Texan standards. However, skin problems and food allergies can occur. Color dilution alopecia is very rare, but occurs in Lacys. Note: Any diagnosed genetic disorder is a disqualifying fault,"

Quick check with my research assistant shows its a recognized breed at Embark, Wisdom, VGL so depending on the collected dataset one might be able to compare to Dobes using the Canine Diversity test (VGL) and the BetterBred tool for Expected Breeding Values on alleles?

For example Embark lists the coat colors so you could select away from blue dilution. Would a red dobe be best in general?



The head set and yellow eye color remind me of song dogs...i once had a pair of littermates from a gsd bitch a neighbor left out in the back yard. Smart as a whip they were, great trail running dogs. Only had to show one the trick and the second would watch and learn it, just like that.

Hmmm. Yes, a good candidate for outcross...

 

[BGpa]

Warning!
Rabbithole ahead...check out lifespan...
Embark:

Embark Dog DNA Test

app.embarkvet.com

VGL; Coat and health

Blue Lacy | Veterinary Genetics Laboratory

vgl.ucdavis.edu

Wisdom DNA info

Lacy Dog Facts - Wisdom Panel™ Dog Breeds

Looking for Lacy Dog facts? View the breed’s average size, weight, temperament, life expectancy, genetic health risks, and more now.

www.wisdompanel.com

 

[Ravenbird]

Not saying that all dogs shouldn't have health testing before they're bred but if you're breeding a non registered dog, maybe it isn't their first priority.

They DO have a breed club registry. I don't know if they have applied for AKC status, it seems like a good ol' boys club and who of them wants to show? It's a true working dog. And I think just breeding for robust dogs in general eliminated a lot of continuity of health problems. They were ranch dogs. If they weren't worth the time and trouble this wasn't an atmosphere where they'd have puppies from dogs who didn't earn their keep.

I like functional dogs bred for a job, especially with attention to good health:

I don't think it's so much "attention to good health" that made them but the necessity of a good ranch dog weeded out what didn't work. Now that they have a breed registry club I DO really like that they state it's a fault, but now we're getting back into honesty of the breeders to say so and require spay/neuter of any puppies that may come up with with the fault(s). And breeders who will admit having a fault in a line and changing their breeding program accordingly. Honestly there are so few breeders out there with a "name", I worry that in no time, if not already, things will begin to snowball.

However, skin problems and food allergies can occur. Color dilution alopecia is very rare, but occurs in Lacys.

I took a deep dive down this because I don't care for dilutes as a color in any breed. I mean I don't care if it exists, I just wouldn't choose it. CDA occurs in Blue and Fawn Dobermans and it's quite interesting that it's "rare" in BL's and non-existent in Wiemaraners both of which are a breed based on a dilute color.

For example Embark lists the coat colors so you could select away from blue dilution. Would a red dobe be best in general?

Since black is dominant over everything, if I were to choose a Doberman to cross with a BL, I would most definitely choose BBDD which carries zero dilutes and would over power the dilute genes contributed by the BL. The puppies could carry dilute colors from the BL, but I don't think they'd be expressed. I don't have enough knowledge to say this with 100% confidence, but that's what I think from my thin surface of knowledge about it. The Dobe/BL cross that I enjoyed so much had what I've come to know as a typical dilute hair coat - longish, thin, pale, just not slick and tight to the skin. This could have been his age too, maybe he was slick as a youngster? At a certain angle in the sun however there was an absolute sheen or glow. I'll see if I can get a still photo off one of several videos. But with his dam being a Blue Dobe, we already know that inherent skin/coat issues are not uncommon. It's why the FCI dropped the dilutes from standard.
I don't know enough about the BL colors by genetic code, but I personally like the solid darkest shade of blue. The "Wiemaraner color", rather than any of the paler colors. Not sure if the pale tri-color x with a black Dobe would have an easier time coming back to standard Dobe color,

But as we say with horses: a good horse is always the right color. And that's what made these dogs good, is being a good dog. Period. And living 12+ years is normal.

Also, from everything I read, these dogs need a JOB. They would help the Dobermans health problems if used in a good program intentionally to breed back into purebreds with better health. Dobermans already need something to do, have bonding with their owners through training and lots of time together, and do tend to get in trouble without it. So cross with a BL and you would reinforce that need to be an active companion, not a couch potato.

I also was personally excited by their natural tracking/trailing and SAR use. Several of us here know how much our Dobermans love scent work!

 

[JanS]

as we say with horses: a good horse is always the right color.

Exactly what the breeder I used to work for said. You can throw color on a telephone pole but that isn't going to change the quality.

 

[Ravenbird]

You can throw color on a telephone pole but that isn't going to change the quality.

I haven't heard that one before - so true!

I have come to a point though, where if I had a choice I'd definitely avoid certain colors in horses or dogs, 100% because of those colors causing possible health problems.

@BG1 - it is so unfortunate that the video features blue eyes on what appears to be an adult dog! BL's are never to have blue eyes except the puppy stage. Always shades of amber to yellow... I've become such a stickler for correctness, it's like if someone put out a video of Dobermans and included a white one in the photos with no comment about whether it is what the breed is supposed to look like. The uneducated newbie sees the video and says "ooooh, I want a white one!" or regarding the BLs "I'd like one with the blue eyes!" Such is how misinformation is born.

 

[GennyB]

I have met a few of these dogs. There is a ranch down the road from us that has 4 of them. They use them to herd cattle from pasture to pasture.
Nothing really stood out about them.....well maybe their coat? It's strange. Similar to a dobe but slightly longer and they have an undercoat. What really seemed odd was how shiny they were. I don't think I have ever seen a dilute so shiny.

 

[BGpa]

Texas state dog...per the youtube.
@GennyB the undercoat is sure useful to extend temperature range, and just spitballing here I'd guess shiny would be a natural selection for shedding dust, some extra waterproofing?

I wonder too about the shiny coat. Our Byb Bonnie gets a lot of compliments, that I just put down to the Inukshik kibble thats high in fish.

@Rits Is coat "shiny" something you can select for in breeding? I read somewhere the original FCI dobe standard was "somewhat coarse" and wonder if "too sleek" or "shiny" is a fault in the confo ring.

 

[GennyB]

@GennyB the undercoat is sure useful to extend temperature range,

Maybe for winter. I see it as a problem in the summer. We have our own special kind of hot around here and I don't see as a benefit when the temp goes up.
I haven't owned a dog with an undercoat in decades. I forgot about the " texture" an undercoat adds.

Our Byb Bonnie gets a lot of compliments, that I just put down to the Inukshik kibble thats high in fish.

Most dobes are shiny if they aren't a dilute. The dilute dobes tend to be kinda dull.

the original FCI dobe standard was "somewhat coarse" and wonder if "too sleek" or "shiny" is a fault in the confo ring.

All dobe standards that I am aware of call for coarse. Are you thinking coarse hair isn't shiny?

 

[BGpa]

Maybe for winter. I see it as a problem in the summer. We have our own special kind of hot around here and I don't see as a benefit when the temp goes up.
I haven't owned a dog with an undercoat in decades. I forgot about the " texture" an undercoat adds.

Most dobes are shiny if they aren't a dilute. The dilute dobes tend to be kinda dull.



All dobe standards that I am aware of call for coarse. Are you thinking coarse hair isn't shiny?

No just a bit confused on the terminology. What defines coarseness?

What amount of coarseness would you say that the BLxDobr you saw had, and in comparison to other dobes?

On the undercoat- was it like a typical GSD?
Or something thinner? Pick a breed close in conformation to a dobe with definite but thinner undercoat...

I think its a given there is going to be variation in BLs...so if one were to choose to fit a climate, thats something to ask breeders with litters right?

 

[Ravenbird]

The BL Standard doesn't mention undercoat, and all the dogs pictured look like they are very tight coated so if there is an undercoat it wouldn't be fluffy. This is from their registry page:



Here's the whole website

The Lacy Game Dog Registry – Lacy Game Dog Registry

bluelacydogs.org

What amount of coarseness would you say that the BLxDobr you saw had, and in comparison to other dobes?

That dog had a terrible coat. I'd bet he had the alopecia they speak of - dull, rough, balding and his nose was completely raw. I loved his personality but absolutely did not like his coat.

The Doberman coat might be called coarse as each hair shaft is rather heavy. Many people are surprised that it's often not as soft as it looks.

 

[BGpa]

The BL Standard doesn't mention undercoat, and all the dogs pictured look like they are very tight coated so if there is an undercoat it wouldn't be fluffy. This is from their registry page:

View attachment 158533

Here's the whole website

The Lacy Game Dog Registry – Lacy Game Dog Registry

bluelacydogs.org

That dog had a terrible coat. I'd bet he had the alopecia they speak of - dull, rough, balding and his nose was completely raw. I loved his personality but absolutely did not like his coat.

The Doberman coat might be called coarse as each hair shaft is rather heavy. Many people are surprised that it's often not as soft as it looks.

I've got to figure out how to copy parts of the prior post into my reply, on my itty bitty iphone display ...i'm like a large thumbed primate trying to mate with a football here sometimes.. and of course, to fix things then I hit the message edit timer tryna fix my spelling and retarded grammar...

 

[BGpa]

But (rant/off) srsly...thanks for the coat explanation.
Yes @Ravenbird your next mission, should you decide to accept it find a healthy BL boy in dark blue as Asha's lover boy. Hey, its only like one-and-half times the work on the second...amiright?

Think of the possibilities..,
You could sell puppies and then sperm for the new and improved designer cross: New Mexico High Desert Dog!

Just kidding!!! running away chuckling evilly...

 

[Rits]

@Rits Is coat "shiny" something you can select for in breeding? I read somewhere the original FCI dobe standard was "somewhat coarse" and wonder if "too sleek" or "shiny" is a fault in the confo ring.

It isn't the shine that is a problem at all. A healthy coat will be shiny regardless. The hair texture itself is supposed to be coarse, and not sleek or soft. Kinda hard to describe but if you ever pet the top coat of a wellbred lab, thats the texture. And its why when you step on one just the right way can so easily become a hair splinter!

 

[BGpa]

It isn't the shine that is a problem at all. A healthy coat will be shiny regardless. The hair texture itself is supposed to be coarse, and not sleek or soft. Kinda hard to describe but if you ever pet the top coat of a wellbred lab, thats the texture. And its why when you step on one just the right way can so easily become a hair splinter!

Thanks @Rits good description. So if BYB Bonnie does not shed hair splinters she fails the breed standard...oh, well. Lol!

This is her this morning saying; cmon Bad Grampa - finish coffee and lets play!

 

[JanS]

its why when you step on one just the right way can so easily become a hair splinter!

LOL I can't even tell you how many of those I've had over the years and they are not easy to get out.