A discussion on Temperament

[Dobs4ever]

You must have me confused as we hardly even got together at natls because i was busy planning 2014 Natls and I certainly never talked about a $10,000 figure for a puppy, but I do agree that less folks are getting into the sport because it is very hard and few have the staying power. The only people I ever hear say that a dog will only bite if ther is a jute sleeve on are have never trained for that. Of course they have never trained a dog. But those who have seen Helio know he will spit the sleeve out and then go for the helper.

I have said it is about $10,000 to get a dog to a conformation title and that might be cheap today and it is about the same amount of training, time, entry fees and traveling to get to a Sch title. I thought you meant the dog cost $10,000. and yes just as some done make it in the working sport some don't make it in conformation either. It is no different - you buy a prospect and most of the time they work out but sometimes not. There are no guarantees in dogs, people, horses etc. There are too many factors. Most working dogs are placed intact so now sure what you mean not even a breeding dog. Maybe I should say placed with full registration.

Police dogs are trained with the sleeve and you can be very sure that they are going to bite sleeve or no sleeve.

All of that said far more succeed than don't if you have studied pedigrees and know the dog has a strong pedigree in what you are looking for your chances of success are much better.

 

[adhahn]

I don't agree with breeding dogs with little concern for conformation. I don't think that conformation is just looks alone. It is also about function. Let's say you have a dog with everything you need to be an outstanding working dog...except correct conformation. When you start breeding dogs like that, what do you end up with? A hot mess! A good breeder strives for the standard which includes conformation.

Any discussion on this must start with a definition of “correct” conformation. A dog can meet the breed standard but still be easily nitpicked apart by a show/conformation enthusiast.

IMO “correct” conformation is anything from a minimally acceptable structure on up to someone’s idea of perfection. Or in other words any conformation trait that isn’t actually disqualifying is still “correct”. There is a huge amount of room for variation in conformation before it becomes disqualifying.

That isn’t any different from Temperament standards where there is a minimally acceptable temperament on up to someone’s idea of perfection. In the ZTP Gun Shyness is disqualifying whereas Gun Sensitivity is not.

Someone may not like the tail set or front angle of a dog, but if it meets the standard then it is still “correct”. Just because it’s not ideal doesn’t make it unacceptable conformation. Personally, I would not consider Gun Sensitivity desirable or even acceptable; but if I said so-and-so produced temperament that is “incorrect” because of Gun sensitivity they could rightfully tell me to pi$$ up a rope because it does meet the minimal standard.

Dobs4ever How would you go about building food drive ? I clearly see the other drives in Drake and understand how to build on them. However, I would say that he is flat out picky when it comes to food. Has has gotten better and will work for food now. Just wondering how that happened. I started working before feeding him so he would be hungry and he learned that the treats I was giving him were not so bad. Did that do it or was it something else? Just asking because we still have days where he is not so food motivated.

Here is a good example of where we must agree on definitions of “correct” in order to have a discussion.

You (generic “you”, not you personally) might tell me that my dog has a poor conformation because you don’t like the belly tuck up. I could then tell you that your dog has a poor temperament because it has low food drive. We would both be wrong as long as the dogs met the minimal standard.

Just because someone doesn’t like a particular conformation or find it appealing doesn’t mean that it isn’t still “correct”. That wouldn’t be any different from me telling someone that just because their dog can barely pass IPO1 the temperament is wrong. If the dog passed a fairly judged trial then it met a minimum standard. Whether *I* personally want more from a dog becomes a mute point from a “correct vs. incorrect” standards point of view.

 

[Dobs4ever]

I don't know how we keep getting to conformation as this discussion is about temperament but it certainly is part of the total dog.

So there are variying degrees of each and every drive as there are differences in conformation from one dog to another. It is apparent from this thread that there is a lot of bad feelings and misunderstandings all the way around. Just as i don't believe one can honeslty dismiss conformation I don't think one can dismiss what these dogs were bred for. It is all part of the same dog. There is also a huge misunderstanding about what training is and how it advances the dog as he learns how to handle his job.

Everyone has their particular likes and dislikes. Just because one thing is unacceptable to one person does not mean it is unacceptable to someone else especially if the dog is strong in other points. It also would not disqualify the dog if through training the dog is able to adapt and conpensate. While it might not be the perfect dog for one person does not mean it is not the perfect dog for another.

We strive for the totally balance dog - we seldom get it. So we take the strengths and weakness in temperament and we train and evaluate the dog as he progresses. I have never seen a dog in protection work that had to have food drive to learn to do his job as long as he has prey drive.. Food is never used in training for PP unless it is the obedience part and if I had to pick one I would choose prey drive (toy) all day long over food drive. Lack of food drive will not stop a dog from succeeding in pp but lack of prey drive is a deal breaker.

 

[adhahn]

Hmmm…. Perhaps I misunderstood the point of your thread?

I though your point was that prior to 1989 both “Show” and “Working” dog people were on the same sheet of music, but then Animal Rights groups disrupted the harmonious relationship by getting the AKC to stop supporting Working Trials, which then led to the deterioration of working temperament.

My understanding of history is that the people who make up the bulk of membership and leadership of the AKC have fought against temperament testing (working trials) since the beginning.

 

[GennyB]

The point of the thread was to help people understand temperament and why it is important. Everyone has their own preference, experience and goals they which to achieve with their own dog. Having an open discussion allows participants to learn and grow and hopefully obtain a balanced knowledge to help them in their journey.

 

[Dobs4ever]

i probably made it confusing when I talked about the big Schutzhund debate that became the big split within DPCA. Fortunately the standards did not change. The beauty of a standard is that we don't have to have "correct" or "perfect" .... that is just what one should strive for.

What role does temperament play in a working breed??? I believe temperament in the end has to trump everything because it was the foundation on which the dog was created. Certainly I think we can agree Herr Dobermann was not concerned with conformation at the time he started his creation. He has a picture in his mind of what he wanted - first in temperament and he chose his dogs accordingly then he considered the looks not meaning beauty for function again - short hair - cropped/dock and i only say that because all the early pictures of his dogs showed a c/d dog. http://www.blitzkrieger.com/breedhistory.html

If you read the study two dogs 1908*Marco v.Jaegerhof was a very elegant dog but lacked character to the point of cowardice.

The second dog of great influence Prinz Modern v. Ilm-Athen was again elegant but lacked courage so even back in the beginning from some of the hardest dog ever bred dogs cropped up that lacked the courage needed to be correct temperament. Almost makes one think we can have beauty or we can have courage but seldom do they reside in the same dog.

As we look back and study that history and what precious little it tells us the battle for perfection is not an easy one and that we must strive to study temperament, drives and working ability to preserve our dogs more as they were intended to be.

Fearless -
Energetic
Watchful
Alert
Loyal
obedient

Think of the different classes of dogs and see if you can see what traits Herr Doberman tried to incorporate from each class - in the lsit above -Retriever, herding, mosslor, sight hounds, terrier.... each of these groups of dogs brought something to the table as far as temperament goes.

 

[adhahn]

If your intent was to open a discussion about temperament in and of itself: bringing up any mention the AKC’s past history regarding Temperament Testing (ie: Schutzhund) is a sure fire way to derail the conversation. LOL, especially if an old GSD person happens to join in!!!

Addressing temperament as a stand alone issue- Absolutely 100%, temperament is what makes a breed a ‘Breed’. The most beautiful, award winning Chesapeake Bay Retriever would still be a lousy representation of his breed if he’s fearful or hesitant around water.

Since temperament is breed specific, identifying what job or purpose the breed has is the first step, then determining how to evaluate or test for it is next.

Along with identifying what temperament characteristics are correct for a specific breed; we must also identify what temperament characteristics are wrong for a specific breed.

For example, a breed whose job is to chase and corner hogs needs to have a good sense of smell, be fast, have stamina and work as a pack. Dog aggression would be a problem for that breed. A breed that is used to catch the hog after the chase dogs have cornered one needs to have power and fight. Dog aggression would not nessissarily be a problem for that breed. Different jobs with different temperaments needed.

A Springer Spaniels’ job is to flush and retrieve small game. A Springer with human aggression has a bad temperament. A Dobermann’s job is protection. A Dobermann without human aggression has a bad temperament.

The only people who will argue against it being “correct” for a protection breed to be human aggressive are those who think breeds are just about looks. In the case of the Dobermann the questions are- how much human aggression is appropriate and how to test for it.

Additionally, since human aggression is not the only temperament characteristic appropriate for the breed, we must determine what other temperament traits are ‘correct’, and how to test for them.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Nothing wrong with being GSD orientated. You will have a lot of good imput on what the herding groups brings to temperament.

I will disagree on the human aggression as it is not a desirable trait and neither does the Doberman have to have it to be a good PP dog.

Human aggression is usualy referred to in dogs that do not accept direction well from their handler or anyone else. The doberman does not need nor do we want that in a good PP dog. Human aggression is a trait that we would work to breed out as unnecessary. A dog that is human aggressive is not a companion or famiy dog for sure and if you read the above standard (FCI) human aggression would be a major fault. They have to have 3 basic things to be strong - prey drive, fight drive and defense drive.

When the Doberman temperament is described as

The Doberman has always been, for the most part, extremely loyal and very trustworthy to his master to a greater extent than most other breeds. He is also a dog that becomes an important and enjoyable part of the family. He requires close association with those he loves and when this love is present, his temperament makes him a natural protector. He is trustworthy around his master's children, friends and even company if he is treated with reasonable respect.​

From DPCA.org

and From FCI

TemperamentScared, shy or timid dog, distrustful or vicious dog, nervous or too aggressive.

Human aggression is a disqualifying fault in the Doberman.

 

[adhahn]

I’m not seeing anything in the description that says human aggression is disqualifying. The ability to unleash hellfire and brimstone on a human is NOT something present in most domestic dog breeds. It is a specific temperament trait.

Perhaps it’s just a matter of semantics but you’ve got to call that temperament characteristic something. What is it that allows a dog to act with hostility towards a human being? If one does not wish to call it human aggression, then some other terminology must be used.

A breed created for dog fighting needs to have dog aggression. A breed intended to be capable of actively fighting human needs to have human “xxxxxxx”? If that temperament characteristic is not human aggression, what shall we refer to it as?

Since this is a temperament discussion, it’s important to point out that the characteristic I’ve referred to as ‘human aggression’ is not just a willingness to defend if attacked or a willingness to bark at an intruder.

A retriever isn’t just willing to retrieve; he loves it! A retriever lives for it! It’s a deep seated drive bred into him.

A protection dog isn’t just willing to stand up to a human: he loves it! He has the heart of a warrior! The desire to dominate his opponent and the thrill of the fight are deep seated drives bred into him.

Is there some other terminology you normally use to describe a dogs willingness to engage a human in battle? For the purposes of temperament discussion I’m willing to call it pretty much anything that conveys the trait properly.

 

[Quee]

That was an interesting posting - thank you for sharing it! If I had to sum up in one word the Doberman's temperament, I would say it's extremely "stable" by nature. I have met Dobies that are high-strung, overbearing, shy, mean, etc. but they've always been that way because they were previously abused or were owned by people who had the same personalities. Generally though, Dobermans have the most stable temperament of any dog breed that I've encountered.

 

[Dobs4ever]

A dog that is human aggressive is called vicious for sure so that would make it a disqualifying fault. You are trying to relate it to a negative trait and had you ever trained any dog in Schuthund you would know than human aggression is a whole different spectrum of the temperament. It means the dog is not receptive to any human and tolerates no human intervention without serious backlash.

I have no idea where the idea came frm that a dog has to attack out of human aggression and I have never read it as discussed as a desired trait in the Schutzhund dog as Schutzhund is all about obedience and control of the dog. Every trainer and seminar I have ever attended never mentioned human aggression as one of the traits they look for in a good dog. A dog that is human aggressive will not be controlled. Study - read you will find that the best dogs are strong in fight and defense with a good guarding instinct thrown in. Human aggression is undesirable trait in any breed.

 

[dobieblackie]

this really did help alot thanks is their any way i can start a conversation and how please tell me

 

[Dobs4ever]

If you want to start a private converstion with someone click on their user name in their avatar and that will start a converstion or click in the upper right hand corner on the inbox then the blue tab start a conversation and put their user name in the participant box.

I have not gotten the PM's to work yet this morning. Hopefully Nick is working on it.

 

[adhahn]

I see that the term “human aggression” is being perceived as a negative thing. That's fine, we can call the trait something else.

There are a lot of temperament traits that make up a particular breed. Sometimes the same traits are desirable for many different breeds. Take prey drive as an example, prey drive is desirable in a Racing dog like the Greyhound, a Hunting dog like the Beagle and a Protection dog like the Dobermann. Very different jobs but prey is useful in them all.

Other traits are more breed specific. A Beagle's job requirements have zero, zip, zilch, nada of any need whatsoever for engaging in combat with a human. Responsible Beagle breeders so not breed in the desire (or drive) to do battle with people.

One of the many temperament traits a protection dog needs is the drive to fight a person. Instead of labeling that desire (or drive) “human xyz”, let's just discuss it without a name.

As noted, a significant element of Schutzhund is control, but what are we controlling? We are controlling what the dog possess inside him; the stuff he is born with; his temperament. Fight, Defense and Guarding instinct have been mentioned in this thread.

So using fight as a point of discussion- ideally we we really don't want generic fight do we? In a perfect world the dog has no interest in fighting a horse, the dog has no interest in fighting other dogs, no interest in fighting deer. When a duck comes streaking across the yard quacking and flapping his wings at the dog, we want him to say “OK, OK.... I'll move...., sheesh...., stupid duck...” We really don't want the dog to say “YES!, COME DO BATTLE WITH ME MIGHTY DUCK!! I LIVE TO SHRED ENEMIES LIKE YOU INTO TINY PIECES!!”

Obviously, we do get spill over with drives and temperament characteristics and a dog with lots of fight drive may very well have a desire to fight darn near everything, but to the extent possible we want a focus to the drive. Ideally, the dog sees humans as his potential combatants, not ducks (or horses, etc). We want the dog to say “meh...stupid duck” and move; but when he sees a person come streaking across the yard throwing rocks and screaming, we want the dog to say “GROWL, SNARL, BARK- HEAR MY BATTLE CRY!! I LIVE FOR THIS MOMENT!! HANDLER PLEASE GIVE ME THE WORD AND ALLOW ME TO UNLEASH FURY UPON THIS HUMAN!!!”

Schutzhund is not 'real' protection training, but it is supposed to be a way of testing whether the dog has the genetics for it. Schutzhund can be either a temperament test as originally intended or a sport. Either way, if it's done correctly the helper is a fighting partner, kind of like a sparing partner in Karate or boxing. Schutzhund CAN be done just as a game, but that's not really correct. The dog is supposed to have a bred in desire to fight the human helper. Other drives such as prey are at work, but fight is supposed to be evaluated.

We don't train temperament traits into a dog. The temperament is bred in. We teach control of the temperament traits and we teach the dog how we want him to use the temperament traits he was born with.

I suspect that lack of understanding of this contributes to confusion among some folks. No matter what you name the temperament characteristic, a protection dog is suppose to be born with a drive (desire) to fight humans. Just like a Retriever is born with a desire to retrieve or a Pointer is born with a drive to point. We as human handlers put control onto that drive or temperament characteristic and teach the dog how we want him to use that desire that's been bred into him.

 

[Dobs4ever]

No one is denying that some dogs are human aggressive and it is a very negative thing. What I am saying is it is not a desirable trait and it is not a trait needed or wanted in a Schutzhund dog. But certainly in a protection dog it is not desireable nor is it real usable. A good dog must have a balance of drives that make the dog very good. Not just one and certainly not human aggression.

I think you are confusing confidence, fearlessness, alert etc which are traits of certain drives. Fight, defense, prey, pack and guarding are key to a successful dog for Schutzhund. Where or who taught you that human aggression was desired or even wanted??? They were wrong or you misunderstand what real human aggression is.

So using fight as a point of discussion- ideally we we really don't want generic fight do we?

Fight is fight - there is nothing generic about it. The dog perceives a threat and stands his ground. Horses don't attacked dogs so I don't worry about a dog attacking a horse - chasing, stalking yes...... Prey drive so we teach them that the horses are off limits. But you are right they do not go out to do battle with a horse or duck.

Through predatory sequence their prey drive and desire to chase and catch will kick in. Should they catch then the battle is over pretty quickly as Dobermans are bred to have a hard bite not a soft mouth like the retriever.

If a duck attacked then the dog should take care of it not run - that is fearless. The dog should have the judgement to recognize a threat whether human or duck. It is the preceived threat that they react upon not just because it is human. The aggressor (handler) has to be able to read each dog and respond accordingly to bring out the best in each dog.

I like to see a dog that has good judgement. Just because it moves does not mean attack. Dobermans above all breeds evaluate a situation and will or should meet a threat with an equal response. Not all aggression by a handler should evoke a straight to bite reaction. The Doberman would much prefer to stand his ground, growl, snarl and back the guy off first. Then if he does not back off the dog's full defense drive comes into play and he rises to the occassion and the willingness to fight as opposed to flight. No human aggression. Aggression yes but not human aggression.

Schutzhund is not 'real' protection training, but it is supposed to be a way of testing whether the dog has the genetics for it. Schutzhund can be either a temperament test as originally intended or a sport. Either way, if it's done correctly the helper is a fighting partner, kind of like a sparing partner in Karate or boxing. Schutzhund CAN be done just as a game, but that's not really correct. The dog is supposed to have a bred in desire to fight the human helper. Other drives such as prey are at work, but fight is supposed to be evaluated.

This statement is confusing - you say it is not "real" protection training - CAN be done just as a game, but that is not really correct.
If it is not "real" then it is just a game/sport and I say actually it is both. It was a test devised to test GSD for police work. Very REAL and very true..... It became a sport for breeders to test their breeding stock temperament to help with sound breeding decisions in a working breed who should retain the qualities necessary to be protective of their family.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Nancy just wrote this article in Canine Chronicles - thought you might enjoy reading it on temperament.

http://caninechronicle.com/featured/the-buzz-about-doberman-pinschers-breeding-for-correct-temperament-requires-testing-and-evaluation/

 

[adhahn]

A discussion of what Schutzhund is, was, or should be is a lengthy topic in itself. Without going too deep into the subject it's difficult to convey a big picture.

Schutzhund as a test is a means of measuring a dogs temperament. It's not a perfect test by any means and that is a lengthy discussion. The protection phase is relatively basic. When you practice the protection exercises performed in a Schutzhund trial, you are not teaching the dog how to fight a man. You are not making the dog want to fight a man. What you are doing is taking the temperament the dog was born with and putting control into it so he can perform a standard set of exercises in front of a Judge for evaluation. If done correctly, the exercises which include pressure from a helper allows the Judge (and spectators) to evaluate the dog.

In theory, any training that is done to hide weaknesses in a dogs temperament is unethical in the sense that it defeats the point of having a test in the first place. In practice people of course go to great lengths to achieve good scores. Naturally, people also cannot agree on whether some training is hiding poor temperament vs. training is helping a good dog be all he can be.

One could spend weeks debating the good, bad, usefulness (or uselessness) of Schutzhund.

 

[adhahn]

Pick a breed that at first glance you would think ought to be capable of protection work. How about the Rhodesian Ridgeback? This is a breed used to hunt lions. Confidence and fearlessness could certainly be used as descriptors of a well bred Rhodesian Ridgeback . The breed has Fight, defense, prey, pack, guarding,as well as intelligence and a sufficient amount of bidibility too.

As a breed the Rhodesian Ridgeback doesn't do protection work well. Sure you can find a few dogs from darn near any breed that happen to be capable, but as a Breed, this confident, fearless lion hunter has been a failure at Protection sports like Schutzhund and 'real' work like Police/Military. Why is that? It's not because they haven't been tried. The dog has the size, courage, fight and train ability. What is missing?

One can find many examples like this. If you look world wide at breeds (breeds as a whole, not a few exceptional individual dogs)there are not many who can do the work. What specific temperament trait separates those breeds from the rest?

What temperament trait does the Dobermann breed have (or had, or should have)that the courageous, lion hunting Rhodesian Ridgeback does not have?

 

[adhahn]

Nancy just wrote this article in Canine Chronicles - thought you might enjoy reading it on temperament.

http://caninechronicle.com/featured/the-buzz-about-doberman-pinschers-breeding-for-correct-temperament-requires-testing-and-evaluation/

Great article! Thanks.

 

[adhahn]

I just read a forum where several people thought the term “Human Aggression” means unprovoked, random, mysterious attacks on people. I immediately thought of this thread.

It's no wonder folks sometimes have a hard time discussing things. We share a common language but sometimes have a totally different understanding of what words mean. Those people are using the term “Human Aggression” to describe the canine version of something like a sociopath. Maybe that is how some here are perceiving it?

Perhaps this discussion could have fared better by using the terminology of “Civil Aggression” or “Social Aggression”?