Shock collar? Need advice please.

[MikeP]

Ehhh…not too much far off as compared to setting up a long line with a bungy’ed prong used to negatively reinforce unacceptable behavior, especially if the Doberman is so hard, high strung with high prey drive that it chokes itself out or causes cervical vertebrae damage…at least with the ECollar, I am in control of the stim and not the frenzied Doberman- but I get and understand your mode of thinking here.

Appreciate the follow up and acknowledge your critique of my post. Hopefully my suggestion can be interpreted as not representative of choke in the literal sense of “ choking out” as I understand to mean — high level heavy hand correction causing loss of control of bladder and more …..and also occurrence of possible CV damage …..allow me to clarify intent.

I deliberately specified a bungee at the front end of the restraint. I liken that to the analogy of application of pumping the brakes to stop at high speed if not strapped in, then chances are nobody is going through the windshield — hence harmless. Compared to a hard stop such as a dog hitting the end of a restraint with no give. I don't see the critique presented as being related to resulting cervical damage and “choking-out” damage when contingent on the use of a bungee.
Furthermore the graduated escalating pinch sensation will occur in stages contingent on drive or lack-of and is self correcting when in high drive in messaging to the dog to back off before full-out choke occurs, akin to the analogy of hitting the windshield.

In that post you are responding to, I was more or less trying to paint a quick picture of its damn near impossible, extremely difficult, to break through the max’ed out prey drive and bring them down to real time- “even when hit with stim of 100”. Wasn’t bragging on that, I didn’t feel good doing it and the “many times” was prob 3x

Understood and furthermore admire your candid response and never interpreted as a brag.

I give you last word.

In the common bond of Dobermans ……Mikel

 

[Corky]

OMG the prey drive is there with Miss Charlie!
What we are doing….prong collar, on leash almost all the time.
We remove the prong and leash when Charlie settles in for naps and bedtime.
When I am in the room, the instant I see her stop and start “the look” (prey gaze) I immediately say “leave it” and either move her gaze away with my hands or the prong and leash, depends on proximity.
If she breaks gaze quickly she gets a silly voice good girl and a single treat.
These other little girl dogs have been with us for almost their entire lives. (Rescues)
Charlie’s the newcomer and I am very motivated to learn to do right by her.
Honestly, if it takes a shock to break gaze and prey mode, then it just does.
I guess my feeling is if a little shock (hopefully all it takes is a little) will snap her out faster than tugging the prong collar, then I’m willing to try it.
I so appreciate the candid non judgy question/answer we can have here!
I’m gonna keep reading and learning how to do right by Charlie!

 

[MikeP]

The second thing they learn is a recall to both command and whistle

That nugget of wisdom warrants . Hopefully others looking for off leash recall, or when in the vicinity of danger or attractive prey then an abrupt stop-in-your-tracks akin to PLATZ might benefit from employing gun dog training staple exercises in particular Lab and retriever training. For distance control then using a pea whistle penetrates the environment of highwinds, running water, crashing waves etc. etc. far more effective than voice over long distance of 200-300 yards is highly effective and easier on vocal cords lest gun dog trainers would put the idea to bed.

For anyone interested and not into French Ring or Mondio Ring where the judges whistle signals when to start and stop an exercise then an investigation into its gun dog use is worth a peek. Needless to write I do no Ring sport yet depend on a piercing pea whistle or mini-megaphone mega pea whistle for reasons outlined above. One sharp blast to stop/PLATZ ….two short staccato blasts for a HERE recall.

In the common bond of Dobermans ….Mikel

 

[Nordika]

Honestly, if it takes a shock to break gaze and prey mode, then it just does.

A dog often will associate the shock with what they are looking at, just fyi, it may have unintended consequences.

 

[Ravenbird]

A dog often will associate the shock with what they are looking at, just fyi, it may have unintended consequences.

I'm not sure which you think is "often", associating stimulation with looking or having unintended consequences, or both?

Used properly, the whole idea is that when the dog begins nefarious thoughts through staring that it is interrupted by an unpleasant stimulation rather than a pull on the leash (requires constant tethering, and when unleashed the behavior often returns), or vocal interruption (not very bothersome to a hard dog and does not tell the dog that certain behavior will cause unpleasant consequences). Dogs are intelligent and generally are quick to put 2 and 2 together and just stop the unwanted behavior, if every single time it becomes unpleasant rather than self-rewarding.

There are many of us here on this forum that have used or regularly used e-collars for training and/or as a safety feature for off leash hikes and I have yet to see a thread discussing unintended consequences. I know it happens, I'm not saying it can't, I've just never seen it personally.

 

[Nordika]

I'm not sure which you think is "often", associating stimulation with looking or having unintended consequences, or both?

Used properly, the whole idea is that when the dog begins nefarious thoughts through staring that it is interrupted by an unpleasant stimulation rather than a pull on the leash (requires constant tethering, and when unleashed the behavior often returns), or vocal interruption (not very bothersome to a hard dog and does not tell the dog that certain behavior will cause unpleasant consequences). Dogs are intelligent and generally are quick to put 2 and 2 together and just stop the unwanted behavior, if every single time it becomes unpleasant rather than self-rewarding.

There are many of us here on this forum that have used or regularly used e-collars for training and/or as a safety feature for off leash hikes and I have yet to see a thread discussing unintended consequences. I know it happens, I'm not saying it can't, I've just never seen it personally.

I have and use e-collars, not for training, an e-collar teaches nothing. Used for correction i.e. reinforcement of commands the dog already knows. The dog must know what is being asked of it. It won't magically put 2 and 2 together, i.e. nefarious thoughts. If I call a dog and he/she chooses to blow me off for a squirrel, it's a correction for not coming when called. I have to teach my dogs not to eat anything off the ground, like poisonous mushrooms, rotting carcasses, etc. I first have to teach them not to eat food off the ground before I ever use an e-collar to reinforce that when they can't resist that tasty rotting salmon. Food drive is a natural drive and use of aversive must be applied judiciously. The same is true of prey drive, if all i did was shock my dogs when they ran after a squirrel, they wouldn't associate that with chasing a squirrel, they would associate it with the environment and become fearful of the environment.

The e-collar shock association refers to the unintended psychological link a dog forms between the electrical stimulation and its surroundings rather than its own behavior. Because dogs cannot logically deduce that a remote-controlled stimulus is a correction for a specific action, and (unintended consequences) they often associate the pain or discomfort with environmental cues present at that moment, such as other dogs, people, or specific locations.

This misassociation can lead to serious behavioral issues, including fear, anxiety, and aggression. For example, a dog shocked while looking at or reacting to another dog may learn to fear all dogs, or a dog shocked while looking at its owner may develop a mistrust of the handler, perceiving them as an unpredictable source of pain. These may also result in misdirected aggression: Dogs may attack triggers (like other pets) they incorrectly associate with the shock.

In the right hands on a properly trained dog, a e-collar can be a useful tool. In inexperienced hands with the idea that an e-collar is the magic bullet for lack of training, well...

 

[Coco Loco]

I'm not an expert and am only sharing what worked with my old girl. When we got Coco as a puppy we already had a mature cat, Tiki, who was the boss of the house. Coco was very interested in Tiki and wanted to chase her because she was a puppy.

She learned through consistent leave its and being on a leash in the house, that she could not chase Tiki or try to play with her. It took time for this to happen. Tiki also could retreat to the basement and Coco would not go down the stairs so it was a refuge for Tiki. They often sat at the stairs face to face which was kind of funny.

Coco learned that Tiki was off limits and was not to be chased or bothered in the house. Outside, Coco's prey drive kicked in with other cats she saw, bunnies and rabbits but never for her cat.

She deferred to Tiki throughout their lives together. If Tiki wanted to drink out of Coco's bowl or eat out of her dish, Coco sat down and waited for Tiki to finish. It was quite a sight to see because there was such a size difference in them.

When Coco was about 7, Tiki decided she didn't mind her as much and they often laid beside each other. I miss this the most about my old girls who are both at bridge now undoubtedly lying on a couch beside each other





So there is hope that with consistency, everyone can live harmoniously but it's on us to make that happen.

 

[MikeP]

A dog often will associate the shock with what they are looking at, just fyi, it may have unintended consequences.

Another opinion I share with @Nordika being a FYI that is very meaningful in the sense that @Corky's Miss Charlie already has some not so nice behavioural issues with the other two smaller dogs, and hence corrective stim levels to get attention if and when applied and if breaching the tolerable level resulting in producing 'unpleasantry' —> think intolerable tens machine sensation muscle involuntary contraction then that could easily trigger the ‘association' response to whatever is in the immediate vicinity — ie. the two smaller dogs — and create a whole new set of issues. It’s a 'damned if I do and damned if I don't' conundrum with the 50% possibility of going in either direction.

As an aside for @Corky ….An example I recently stumbled on was an e-collar dependent handler and her Lab. I casually asked why the continued need on what appeared to be an older dog. The response was that her dog was reactive to strangers and was always in use ….yet I never triggered a response and don't know if the e-collar stim was applied. Throughout conversation a group of 3 adults approached and the reactive behaviour— fear defence no escape aggression— erupted. No escape and leash restraint coupled with with continuous stim merely escalated the off the chart reactivity as the group approached. Convincingly demonstrated that in the wrong hands the futile the means. I offered unsolicited advice that flew over her head and soon realized what I offered was unwelcome as the behavior de-escalated as the group disappeared over the ridge. On I went on my merry way and pedalled up the incline out of site out of mind.

Used properly, the whole idea is that when the dog begins nefarious thoughts through staring that it is interrupted by an unpleasant stimulation rather than a pull on the leash (requires constant tethering, and when unleashed the behavior often returns), or vocal interruption (not very bothersome to a hard dog and does not tell the dog that certain behavior will cause unpleasant consequences).

A leash correction messages the dog the correction came from the hand at the far end of the leash and familiar voice 6 ft away, thereby association is readily related to those sources. As opposed to e-collar first time use. E-collar stim is a foreign unpleasant sensation thus association can be easily attributed to the immediate surroundings….hence the case in discussion and the two smaller dogs. The direction that the issue can take is 50-50 chance of improved behaviour and likewise 50-50 chance in increase of the unwanted behaviour with association of the immediate environment. In essence it is a roll of the dice as opposed to certainty of the hand on the leash and familiar voice from where the correction originated.

Case in point. During bitework years and years ago I was working with my personal very resilient high drive Dobe of old vom Forell/v.Maerchengarten lineage. A great dog until he wasn't as a result of the advent of e-collar and its promoted value, consequently I errantly fell into the trap of dependency on E-collar stim negative reinforcement to OUT/OUS the bite. It worked to get a reluctant compliant out as the association of voice with applied stim pointed to me as the source. That transferred to a once bite sleeve crazy and reliable dumbbell retrieve Doberman over the 1 meter hurdle to a Doberman expressing immediate avoidance of both and a long arduous road back to what once was, and me now the source associated with the negative reinforcement positive punishment combo. That was eventually resolved via positive reinforcement and negative punishment. E-collar and heavy hand compulsory measures led to 4 pearly whites advancement up the leash to the inevitable easy to determine source. Been there done it. Ironically was the embarrassing victim on display with a dog with a locked bite on the source at the end of the leash. Embarrassingly in front of fellow handlers at the local working dog facility of hear-say unjustified bad rap on The Working Dog Forum who are associated with HERE and HERE and catering to clientele beyond sport and Sch as it was known back in the day. Hence my aversion to employing E-collar positive punishment negative reinforcement.

All the preamble points directly to the old trainer adage of “Train the dog at the end of the leash with measures the dog favourably responds to. I leave it there….

In the common bond of Dobermans …..Mikel

 

[BGpa]

I have and use e-collars, not for training, an e-collar teaches nothing. Used for correction i.e. reinforcement of commands the dog already knows. The dog must know what is being asked of it. It won't magically put 2 and 2 together, i.e. nefarious thoughts. If I call a dog and he/she chooses to blow me off for a squirrel, it's a correction for not coming when called. I have to teach my dogs not to eat anything off the ground, like poisonous mushrooms, rotting carcasses, etc. I first have to teach them not to eat food off the ground before I ever use an e-collar to reinforce that when they can't resist that tasty rotting salmon. Food drive is a natural drive and use of aversive must be applied judiciously. The same is true of prey drive, if all i did was shock my dogs when they ran after a squirrel, they wouldn't associate that with chasing a squirrel, they would associate it with the environment and become fearful of the environment.

The e-collar shock association refers to the unintended psychological link a dog forms between the electrical stimulation and its surroundings rather than its own behavior. Because dogs cannot logically deduce that a remote-controlled stimulus is a correction for a specific action, and (unintended consequences) they often associate the pain or discomfort with environmental cues present at that moment, such as other dogs, people, or specific locations.

This misassociation can lead to serious behavioral issues, including fear, anxiety, and aggression. For example, a dog shocked while looking at or reacting to another dog may learn to fear all dogs, or a dog shocked while looking at its owner may develop a mistrust of the handler, perceiving them as an unpredictable source of pain. These may also result in misdirected aggression: Dogs may attack triggers (like other pets) they incorrectly associate with the shock.

In the right hands on a properly trained dog, a e-collar can be a useful tool. In inexperienced hands with the idea that an e-collar is the magic bullet for lack of training, well...

Thank you, @Nordika
I agree with both you and @Ravenbird

My understanding is:
The dog needs to know whats expected, and reinforced positively, with demonstrated reliability before a correction for failure to comply is fair/useful.

In my case the ecollar was not used to teach a loose heal, off leash recall, but only to break the focus of whatever got the dog past the threshold of listening...and back in compliance.

And as a rate but useful hammer of god (out of nowhere to break the habit of eating something dangerous, a snake, a dead lobster, wood chips...

And an insurance policy on off leash- used once on enforce the recall on Bonnie wanting to run up to a coyote to play/investigate.

Could also be for stopping a run across the busy street to check out something important she has decided needs her approval...
---
I got some early ecollar introduction training by an LEO training school, but as Bonnie was a bit too young at that time (and my gut instinct was that she AND I both needed to understand the basics better first)...so I put that off until later. I was fortunate to get some good advice from @MikeP
On how and why, plus introduction to Balabanov and Ellis. I also watched Cabral interview Krohn and read his book on yank and crank back in the day, and how to do it different now, specifically:

Michael Ellis has an excellent discussion on e-collar use, pro's and con's, including why to be careful in application to avoid creating "suspicious beliefs".

https://michaelellisschool.com/webinars/

I've read somewhere that dogs can "generalize" from the unintended association created mistakenly by e-collar, to future triggers on that same association.

If that rises to a fear with defense aggression then a dog could come back up the leash if overwhelmed, correct?

So, again: be careful on jumping to ecollar before you have been well trained on positive, and I'd start with a prong on long line first, to build the recall before ecollar.

https://michaelellisschool.com/webinars/

PS: If you get on the email list and buy a webinar before its released you can watch it over and over.

I havent followed this FB link but anyone can learn more by a little searching.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10156821729593465

 

[Nordika]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, you can't teach a dog to sit by saying 'sit' and shocking the dog. Just as you can't teach a dog to "leave it" by saying those magical words and applying the magical e-collar stim. The dog isn't going to understand what is wanted. Akin to a person speaking a foreign language telling you to do something in a language you don't understand and shocking you, or choking with a yank and crank, when you don't comply or respond. No matter your intelligence level, you are not likely to put 2 and 2 together if you don't understand the meaning of the words. The dog must completely understand what you want them to do. If you have properly taught the dog a "leave it" command, you should be able to put some delicious grilled chicken or your dogs favorite liver bits on a plate, or the dogs favorite toy, on the floor in front of the dog, and command to leave it, and the dog leaves it be because it knows what the command means. When you have that compliance over and over again, then you can say the dog knows what you want with that command. Only then should you proof that compliance with aversive correction beyond a voice correction. Basically what you are trying to achieve is impulse control. If the dog is on leash and prong collar full-time, is constantly being corrected, it's far more likely the dog doesn't understand the commands being given.

@Corky instead of correcting the dog for a behavior you don't want, and possibly something the dog doesn't understand, try turning it around by asking the dog for what you believe the dog truly does understand. Come, sit, down, place, whatever you absolutely know 100 % that the dog understands how to comply.

How I train my high drive puppies to leave animals alone: I teach them a "watch me" command. Whenever the puppy gives me eye contact it gets paid, once I have a lot of engagement, I will add the verbal cue. When the puppy understands the verbal cue, I will give that cue in the protected presence of prey, like my chickens behind a fence. Once I have engagement with the eyes, we can play, train, etc. with just positive reinforcements and the puppy is learning impulse control with the safety of the other animals in mind. I can then move on to just leash and collar without a barrier, we continue to train the same way, always using "watch me" if the eyes divert from me. Train, train, train, then I have the puppy help during feeding the chickens, collecting eggs, etc. If the puppy becomes prey driven, I cue to watch me, always training until the pup can sit and watch the chickens eating, running, flying with impulse control. With prey drive, you must have impulse control BEFORE there is ever physical access!

People are going to do whatever they want to do. People only take advice on options if they actually want other options. That's my two cents and I'm out of the convo.