Shock collar? Need advice please.

[Corky]

Hello everyone!
I know I’m not here very often, life is pretty chaotic but in a good way.
Our girl Charlie, she’s the cutest!
She is in training to be my husbands service dog.
She just started and is 2 classes in.
Prior to that she did 3 rounds of basic training.
The problem is at home.
She intimidates and bullies and beats up on the other dogs!
She torments them!
We are at our wits end with her and the other girls are old now (11 & 12)
Charlie is almost a year old and Is 70 pounds.
I am very much considering a shock collar for when she goes after the smaller dogs.
We have tried the vibration collar and that worked for about 1/2 day then I’m pretty sure she laughed at us when we hit that button!
I am not a fan of the thought of putting a shock to the puppy I love but I’m even less of a fan of having her kill my 12 yr old 14 pound other dog!
I’ve read that many of you use them with your Dobes, I’d sure like thoughts on this from all directions!
We all really appreciate any insight and any options you all might have.
If you are in the shock collar corner, which brand or style and do we have videos on how to properly use them?
Thanks so much!
Corky

 

[Ravenbird]

It would be helpful to know a little more about what's happening in the household.

She intimidates and bullies and beats up on the other dogs!
She torments them!
We are at our wits end with her and the other girls are old now (11 & 12)
Charlie is almost a year old and Is 70 pounds.

Is this while outside playing and she escalates and plays rough or is it actually fighting? Do either of the other dogs fight back or are they trying to flee? Are they male or female? You say she torments them, which sounds like on-going bullying. On and off all day or once or twice a week? What are you currently doing when she does this? Why do you think it's not working? Are you & your husband on the same page for telling her it's not allowed or does she get away with bullying sometimes if one of you isn't home?

An e-collar can be a good tool to use in cases like this, but first you need to have a really good understanding of what & why the bad behavior is coming up and you will need to understand use of the e-collar and how to use it and you should get a high end brand like Dogtra or the Educator that has 100+ settings. Cheap collars with 5 or 10 levels can be ineffective at one level and overpowering and damaging at the next level up, so don't cut corners on this.

 

[BGpa]

on @Ravenbird caution. What does your service dog trainer say about this?
Are you and hubby BOTH getting trained, and consistent?
This is really about training YOU both, first.

Is the SD trainer adept at using prong or e-collars effectively in training?
If not, Has he/she provided referrals to other owners of big strong dogs who do, and will collaborate?

There is a trend to "positive only" in some trainer trade associations that means well but is insufficient with guardian breeds with high drive, as those trainers are only using part of the "balanced" toolbox that is acknowldeged as best practice in MWD, LEO, and IGP- on Mals, GSDs, Dobes and some others.

Some SD trainers are used to very compliant breeds, ie "the FabFour"; goldens, labs, spoos or mixes of those.

It is a given that You must have a base of positive reward based training that demonstrates the dog knows what is desired, first. If the dog willfully disobeys, then there are other techniques, like long line with prong, etc.
Only after the dog knows what is expected and declines...does the ecollar make sense.

At one year old your dobe SD candidate is in the socialization and basic obedience phase, including "leave it" that needs near bullet proof behavior before doing SD task specific training, in typical corporate program protocol. Its a little early IMHO on the ecollar, in stim. Some collars have a pulse (vibration), some have a tone, in addition to the zap which should be set so low its just enough to get his attention, break focus on the thing he is hyperfocused on instead of you (pestering the old dogs for example).

Have you tried tug toy play? He sounds like he beeds more attention and exercise from/with you...TBH. And yes, this is a commitment. Same for any SD, as well.

I'd most highly caution AGAINST jumping to a any shock collar, especially cheap shock collar off amazon, before your trainer has time to train you on stopping the rough play, first.

And its impossible for me to pretend to give more tips without seeing in person, plus- I'm not a trainer- just repeating what I've read by those who are...

You need to understand behaviors, cues, markers, rewards, timing.

Are you using food rewards?
Marker training?

There is a LOT to do
BEFORE using an ecollar or you can make things worse, create bigger problems.

For example, the dog may develop "suspicious beliefs" say; associate the stim with the other dogs, and become more than simply too playful...and fear reactive.

And generalize to fear aggression to all dogs, and disqual as a SD.

So back to the trainer...is my advice.

Having said that, if you are going to continue-you must do your homework first.
Michael Ellis has a good online class on ecollar use, via his new online training.
You can find his older stuff on Leerburg.
Review that to understand the idea then interview your next trainer if the current one cant explain and demo and train YOU BOTH on how to add this to your toolbox.

I use the Dogtra 1900x.
Not cheap but longest lasting, most rugged in all weath, best range.
Flexible without being too complicated for a new husband-wife team to learn on and be consistent, vs say a miniEducator, thats favored by pro trainers for all the options.

Good customer service, just got free warranty repair on a problem, free shipping both ways.

 

[JanS]

Firstly, it's nice to see you again!
What are the breeds of the other dogs?

I am not a fan of the thought of putting a shock to the puppy I love but I’m even less of a fan of having her kill my 12 yr old 14 pound other dog!

At nearly a year you can start her on it so she understands what you're asking. It usually only takes one or two corrections and they know you have that "remote control".

which brand or style and do we have videos on how to properly use them?

We have a couple Dogtras and a couple Garmins. I believe @Rits posted a good how to video here a few years back.

We'd love to see some photos of your girl!

 

[BGpa]

I believe @Rits posted a good how to video here a few years back.

Great tip!
@Corky if you haven't tried it, the little magnifying glass icon brings up the search parameters...here is a bunch from @Rits

Have not scrolled to find the video @JanS recalls but a good idea for use to read some of these, I think.

Search results for query: Ecollar

 

[Corky]

You all are just amazing. I love that you make me think on what and how we are managing things.
When I say she is tormenting the others (probably not the right word but said for lack of a better word) she will just stair them down, whether they are aware or not (sleeping vs awake)
I mean her gaze is locked in them! We call her (not usually affective) we will pull her in on the leash.
She is on leash and prong collar for this reason.
“Charlie LEAVE IT” in a loud and firm voice when she is in this state (think watching a cat outside the window and its hunting in the grass, fixated watching for its prey) not trying to sound dramatic but that’s exactly what she looks like without being crouched down.
If she “leaves it”, there is a treat with a fun voice attached to the reward.
That to me is the tormenting.
The bullying/dominating is the standing over them (literally physically standing over their body)
Or standing in front of them as if to be their boss.
Or when one of the others goes out to potty (doggy door access) she follows them and won’t let them come back in and the thumps them. (I’m gonna bet most of you know the “Doberman thump”, 1 or both front legs up and then come down hard with a mighty forward arm thrust——thump)
Literally, we have to open the slider so the other dog can get in and away from her, then Charlie bolts in the doggie door to thump the other some more.
We are there and on these occasions Charlie is put out for a while with the doggie door closed or she goes to her crate for a doggie time out.
This is not while everyone is playing. This is all day long.
The other dogs…
Hope is 12 yrs old and a 14 LBS chihuahua mix.
Piper is 11yrs and about 15’ish LBS and likely Pomeranian/terrier mix.
Red is between 8-11 yrs we think and is 45 LBS
Charlie is big enough that Red can walk under her.
I have not gone to the SD training yet.
They are the ones who put the prong on Charlie.
My husband said he’s asked about the behaviors and has been told repetition is key.
That’s great but we use the firm leave it and if that isn’t enough we will pull her closer but it won’t stop her from lunging at the other dog.
What I fear is she’s going to thump one of the little ones and snap their back. Then I’ve got a dead dog as they are older and I doubt they could come back from such an injury.
I’m really at my wits end and I’d sure like to get this under control.
I get that we are not doing something right. All dogs are different and we are the ones that need to adapt our skills for each dog.
What are we doing wrong? We do voice commands, we do positive rewards and we use physical pull back.
I want us to succeed at this problem with her without the shock collar. If you all have the magic answer, please share
She knows her basic commands. Drop it, leave it (just not when it comes to the other dogs) sit, down and stay is realllly hard on her but she is working on it!
Oh, the other dogs are girls!
And this little bug is our Charlie girl!

 

[BGpa]

Ok thanks, thats a lot more context, that helps. She's a cutie!

1. This is the time to get the trainer out to visit in your home to observe all the dogs,
and coach you both more including whatever they suggest "needs repetition." On Charlie.

 

[Ravenbird]

her gaze is locked in them! We call her (not usually affective) we will pull her in on the leash.
She is on leash and prong collar for this reason.
“Charlie LEAVE IT” in a loud and firm voice when she is in this state (think watching a cat outside the window and its hunting in the grass, fixated watching for its prey) not trying to sound dramatic but that’s exactly what she looks like without being crouched down.
If she “leaves it”, there is a treat with a fun voice attached to the reward.

A dog staring and fixating definitely should be broken up, so you have the right idea. If possible don't let it even start. Not for one or two seconds. Stalking is a thing with Dobermans and it's almost always play, but with another Dobe the dogs understand each others play, Without the other dog in play mode, maybe Charlie is using her staring in another way. Doesn't matter, you just have to try your hardest to stop it, preferably before it starts. If you see her just looking casually at one of the others, call her to you. Once she locks onto her stare mode, inside she is escalating. The more her drive to pounce heightens, the more she closes her brain to your command to Leave It or to Come. At a year old, you need to reinforce a reliable recall, no exceptions.

That’s great but we use the firm leave it and if that isn’t enough we will pull her closer but it won’t stop her from lunging at the other dog.

A correction has to be strong enough to make a point. If you have her on a collar and leash and pull her sharply to your knee and grab her collar, and she doesn't care and still lunges at the other dog, ripping away from you, then you have more dog than you can safely handle. Mentally or physically she has gained an upper hand and you are right in thinking that you must get it under control. I would be in favor of using an e-collar if you can invest in a good one and a solid understanding of how it works before using it on Charlie when she is in elevated drive.

Here's a very short video of Ellis - he has complete video tutorials on using the e-collar for purchase on Leerburg.

Remember:
you can teach a dog to DO ANYTHING with positive reinforcement.
you can not teach them to STOP doing anything without some kind of consequence or correction that makes it clear to them what NOT to do.

If it was something like counter-surfing it would be fairly easy, but with other dogs involved you have more variables, and you need to be way more careful in training Charlie that it is you and your commands that she is obeying and the other dogs are not responsible for her getting into trouble. I personally would opt for first training her to recall with e-collar reinforcement and high praise when returning to you, doing all the training without the other dogs present. Once she knows that when you say Charlie Here! and she runs to you, then add distance, and finally distractions. What you will be teaching is that ignoring you IS NOT an OPTION. With proper training and use of the e-collar this becomes a happy compliance, not a dreaded ordeal. DOGS LOVE TO DO THE RIGHT THING. Dogs with no clarity of right and wrong don't understand why you are getting upset. She is simply doing dog things in her mind and you haven't made it clear that some "dog things" are not tolerated by the leaders of the house hold.

Hope this helps - keep asking questions, and do the forum search on other threads about this subject. In the meantime, if you aren't already, keep Charlie separated from the others for their safety. They should not have to put up with bullying, it's totally unfair.

 

[Ddski5]

My first one was like this with our cats…
He was obedience trained and listened well but when cats came into sight, it was on. He would fixate and prey drive would escalate. I did everything, all the positive reinforcement and the shit just didn’t work.

I used our ECollar mini-educator to break him of this. Key concepts to consider:
1. He must recognize what he is doing is wrong.
2. You cannot let him fixate and ramp up into prey drive- you will lose him in that prey drive
3. You have to stop it before it begins
4. Yes, it’s a constant head on the swivel- looking and anticipating the situation and ready to immediately correct so he can identify it’s wrong and there will be consequences.
5. It most likely will not be an immediate change, it will take much work on your part and many corrections for him to even identify it’s not acceptable behavior.
6. Like I said, you have to catch him while he is still thinking straight, you let him ramp up into prey drive and it’s extremely hard to get him to understand- prey drive is like a wild mental frenzy.

A very good example was my first monster, Ragnar. Ramped up extremely quick and got lost into prey drive - practically unretrievable. I know many times he would be sprinting across the field at these geese and I would hit him with the full 100 on ECollar- he would be yelping and running sideways from that strong 100 stim but he would not stop….just amazing how he would run through that strong stim- all the way to the geese. He really wasn’t rational until he calmed down. That’s when I learned the key is to stop it before it starts. Watch for the tell tale signs:
Fixed stare
Ears fully erect
Increased breathing
Low groan/growl

The pictures are the final product of prob 6 months of training. Him in my front yard- Canadian Geese across the street. He is sitting there going crazy on the inside because he knows the ECollar is on and there will be repercussions if he breaks posture.

There will be some that say what I did was inhumane with the ECollar, but it was a very useful tool to teach him how to manage impulse control. To prevent him from running out of control across a busy road and get hit by a car- to prevent from chasing a wild animal that may have an disease like rabies- to prevent attacking a protected species and being put in a cage by LE…..and it all started in house with the cats.

-see the situation happen before it happens
-be ready and correct as soon as he identifies the stimulus
-start with your negative cue, then vibrate, then a stim
-all of that has to happen before he gets into the prey drive.

I am sure the video posted does a better job, but that’s how I kinda did it.

Good luck and sure would like to know how it all works out.

 

[Ladydi]

It appears targeting is not a new behavior for your dog, so to undo this wanted behavior will be harder for you humans.
Everyone must be working the dog in the same manner especially the handler, In this case your husband.
Your big pup has this behavior well established into his muscle memory.
So this will make things a bit more difficult.
Consistently and daily training throughout the day is key.
Use every moment as an opportunity to train.
If it were me I would have the big dog leashed to my hip at all times,leaving no opportunity for unwanted behavior.
Yep, when cooking…during laundry…..cleaning kitchen….etc. with no interference from the small pups.
Smaller dogs doing their business outside in peace.
Bigger dog does business on leash with smaller dogs inside.
Bigger dog only off leash while humans are supervising …with little dogs safely separated from big dog.
Work closely with your trainers if your plan is to use him as a service dog by 2 years of age.
Targeting is an unwanted behavior in any service dog.
A service dog must be able to ignore any distractions and focus on their human at all times.
You have a lot of work to do and e-collars can great if you are well trained on proper usage of the collar.
If not properly trained an e-collar can created more unwanted behavior.
Eventually the dog must be able to obey on and off leash at all times so starting training now especially with a breed and power of this size is crucial.

 

[Ddski5]

Agree^^^

Do what @Ladydi recommends first- if you have not already tried the leash to hip training. This works well and gives you a physical attachment and quick ability to correct.

 

[MikeP]

A very good example was my first monster, Ragnar. Ramped up extremely quick and got lost into prey drive - practically unretrievable. I know many times he would be sprinting across the field at these geese and I would hit him with the full 100 on ECollar- he would be yelping and running sideways from that strong 100 stim but he would not stop….just amazing how he would run through that strong stim- all the way to the geese.

I appreciate your honesty in the sense that most handlers would not reveal the details that you alluded to in that it appeared inhumane — which it is as per the description. That is not being judgemental and I offer apologies if taken that way, but being merely observational based on the context — i.e. envisioning the scene that this occurred “many times”. My purpose of my response is to provide personal insight to any outside observer/lurker on the 'side-lines' being confronted with similar issues, then perhaps there is an alternative measure to deal and correct the issue using more 'humanely-aversive' strategy.

Foresight is imperative in the sense that a prey triggering stimulus such as geese being part of the environment. Canada Geese during the summer months of moult 4-6 weeks go through a phase of shedding primary feathers and are bio-mechically unable to fly and hence are attractive to predatory animals and are often found in suitable 'safe' environments ( public parks, preserves or housing areas with nearby ponds to raise the goslings. Even when not in moult they hang around where food is available offered by unwary homeowners. Why all the preamble??? Merely to point out that an environmental situation attracting geese or other wildlife might very easily have them on the nearby doorstep and therefore expect encounter with Mother Nature's finest.

Proceeding from there then anticipate predatorial behaviour (of dog at leash-end) beyond the mere play/prey chase escalating to a serious intent to kill the prey. Hence the reward of killing prey supersedes the positive inflicted punishment and disturbing imagined visual resulting from #100 on the stim meter.

With anticipation in mind then I personally do/did/ and will do if a Doberman in preliminary training is confronted with being exposed to suspected prey. Therefore until I am able to proof resistance to the enticing stimulus then a 30 ft. 1 inch wide Tracking lead restraint —or 2 or 3 coupled together with quick release and attached to 4 ft heavy duty 3-4 ft bungee at the front end — leaves ample free range of 60 ft to 200ft diameter circle to allow exploration for the most inquisitive prey driven dog when in prey probable territory. Ironically the bungee tie-out is also a motivator when attached to a flat agitation collar to heighten drive in bite work. Who would have thought , huh?… Gary Patterson and Tom Rose write of the bungee benefit in the 'back-in-the day' once $30 manual “Training the competitive working dog” now selling at crazy $$$.00 on Amazon.

Add the configurations of bungee and Tracking line to a H&S 2.25 mm prong and the correction sensation increases via stretched to-end bungee capable of 200-300 lbs breaking strength. As drive increases to a point, the dog in pursuit the more it advances the more it begins to realize it is choking off its own air passage and that in itself dictates for it to rescind forward pursuit. A high decibel ear piercing growling “NO” within that 1-2 second time window preceding when the dog hits the end of the outstretched bungee becomes the negative marker associated with the self inflicted correction.

Hence conditioning to the associated verbal cue such as the handler's loud volume high decibel vocal “PLATZ” to down , or “NO” to stop preceding the anticipated moment the dog hits the end of the leash is operant conditioning in action and will inevitably begin to occur IMHO. Repetition upon repetition develops an autonomous robot like response. No doubt an E-collar can bring about similiar behaviour if used correctly but never IMHO to stop a behaviour that a dog instinctively will do without ever having the option of being conditioned to a behaviour that is wanted. An example being operant conditioning to “STAY CLOSE” or using the dog's responsive call name coupled with the pre-stated command and +Reinforced for compliance via an enthusiastic game of tug on French linen bite tube/roll serves as an outlet to express and satiate prey drive, thus redirecting the motivation (inherent need to chase motion stimulus) to what is wanted as opposed to the unwanted. Intermittent repetition throughout a stroll down a nature path doubles as a playful obedience exercise as well positive reinforcement and conditioning to respond to the handler's verbal dictates at all times ….well most anyway.

Need I say I'm averse to highly aversive drive killing measures. Not judging anyone for how and what they do, …just unapologetically expressing dissenting opinion of an old guy who’s been around the block more than a time or two in the world of working dogs. Furthermore it puzzles me when I see dogs , 3,4,5,6 years old that as juveniles having been 'trained' on E-collars to forbid expressing unwanted behaviour yet still continue having such collar still strapped to their neck and in continuous use to check the unwanted behaviour that the e-collar was originally supposed to have impacted. Collar-wise comes to mind lest they be not needed. I get it that some obstinate dogs teamed up with proficient handlers benefit from their use. But IMO far too many inexperienced novice handlers depend on them to facilitate getting a correctional quick fix 'yesterday' yet inadvertently create a drive killing behavioural response. Koehler's principle of tossing the 'deplorable' outdated 'throw chain' in the vicinity of the dog not to hit but to distract and break/redirect focus from unwanted/unwarranted behaviour about to errupt IMO is adequate aversive sans the pain/discomfort/'brow beating' commonly associated with prong/pinch and E-collar correction of belligerent behaviours. Incidentally dog behaviourist extraordinaire Dr. Stanley Coren accidentally discovered that whilst frustratingly throwing his slipper near his dog — and coupled with verbal grunting “UH UH” — that was annoyingly misbehaving at the far end of his study responded productively to halting the unwanted behaviour. Is that a dog behaviourist's endorsement or fluke discovery akin to Koehler's ??? … I leave there and await the 'blow-back'…..

Balabanov has some good ideas albeit mine conflict somewhat

In the common bond of prey-'crazy' Dobermans/Dobermans …..Mikel

 

[Nordika]

Hello everyone!
I know I’m not here very often, life is pretty chaotic but in a good way.
Our girl Charlie, she’s the cutest!
She is in training to be my husbands service dog.
She just started and is 2 classes in.
Prior to that she did 3 rounds of basic training.
The problem is at home.
She intimidates and bullies and beats up on the other dogs!
She torments them!
We are at our wits end with her and the other girls are old now (11 & 12)
Charlie is almost a year old and Is 70 pounds.
I am very much considering a shock collar for when she goes after the smaller dogs.
We have tried the vibration collar and that worked for about 1/2 day then I’m pretty sure she laughed at us when we hit that button!
I am not a fan of the thought of putting a shock to the puppy I love but I’m even less of a fan of having her kill my 12 yr old 14 pound other dog!
I’ve read that many of you use them with your Dobes, I’d sure like thoughts on this from all directions!
We all really appreciate any insight and any options you all might have.
If you are in the shock collar corner, which brand or style and do we have videos on how to properly use them?
Thanks so much!
Corky

You all are just amazing. I love that you make me think on what and how we are managing things.
When I say she is tormenting the others (probably not the right word but said for lack of a better word) she will just stair them down, whether they are aware or not (sleeping vs awake)
I mean her gaze is locked in them! We call her (not usually affective) we will pull her in on the leash.
She is on leash and prong collar for this reason.
“Charlie LEAVE IT” in a loud and firm voice when she is in this state (think watching a cat outside the window and its hunting in the grass, fixated watching for its prey) not trying to sound dramatic but that’s exactly what she looks like without being crouched down.
If she “leaves it”, there is a treat with a fun voice attached to the reward.
That to me is the tormenting.
The bullying/dominating is the standing over them (literally physically standing over their body)
Or standing in front of them as if to be their boss.
Or when one of the others goes out to potty (doggy door access) she follows them and won’t let them come back in and the thumps them. (I’m gonna bet most of you know the “Doberman thump”, 1 or both front legs up and then come down hard with a mighty forward arm thrust——thump)
Literally, we have to open the slider so the other dog can get in and away from her, then Charlie bolts in the doggie door to thump the other some more.
We are there and on these occasions Charlie is put out for a while with the doggie door closed or she goes to her crate for a doggie time out.
This is not while everyone is playing. This is all day long.
The other dogs…
Hope is 12 yrs old and a 14 LBS chihuahua mix.
Piper is 11yrs and about 15’ish LBS and likely Pomeranian/terrier mix.
Red is between 8-11 yrs we think and is 45 LBS
Charlie is big enough that Red can walk under her.
I have not gone to the SD training yet.
They are the ones who put the prong on Charlie.
My husband said he’s asked about the behaviors and has been told repetition is key.
That’s great but we use the firm leave it and if that isn’t enough we will pull her closer but it won’t stop her from lunging at the other dog.
What I fear is she’s going to thump one of the little ones and snap their back. Then I’ve got a dead dog as they are older and I doubt they could come back from such an injury.
I’m really at my wits end and I’d sure like to get this under control.
I get that we are not doing something right. All dogs are different and we are the ones that need to adapt our skills for each dog.
What are we doing wrong? We do voice commands, we do positive rewards and we use physical pull back.
I want us to succeed at this problem with her without the shock collar. If you all have the magic answer, please share
She knows her basic commands. Drop it, leave it (just not when it comes to the other dogs) sit, down and stay is realllly hard on her but she is working on it!
Oh, the other dogs are girls!
And this little bug is our Charlie girl!

Your dog is exhibiting predatory behavior. Prey drive is innate, hardwired, and can't be completely controlled through adversives, such as a prong and electronic collars. You'd be better off giving the dog an outlet to satisfy the drive, a fur tug toy, a flirt pole, etc. While incorporating and reinforcement of your obedience commands, drop it, sit, downs, leave it, etc. during the play sessions. Can also introduce a treat ball, which satisfies the chase, kill, and eat part of the natural prey drive. Giving them a daily outlet helps to reduce their fixation on other animals.

A couple of things to consider: The person to whom the dog will be in service to, should be the person that feeds, trains and cares for the dog. I would have the dog tethered to that person, handfeeding most, if not all, the dogs daily ration as a reward for obedience or other skills you might want to work on. If the dog has toys, teach them to pick up/retrieve toys by name, or articles of any sort can also work, such as keys, gloves, glasses, slippers, leash, etc. Teach the dog that she must work to eat, use that magnificent mind. Personally I would not allow this dog physical access to the other dogs until there is no fixation on them.

I have had high prey drive dogs with rabbits running around in the house, and chickens, ducks, and goats running loose outside. My 6 month old pup still does not have access to my adult dog, a gate suffices to reinforce the leave it, without putting pressure and stress on the adult dog, he likes his alone time. I don't reward him if he jumps up on the gate, even if he responds to no/leave it afterwards. That will just reinforce jumping on the gate, waiting for the command to stop, and then seeking reward. Dogs are smart. I will reward if they look at something and instead of triggering play/prey drive, they look back to me instead. He does not chase the chickens while off leash, but training to leave them was done on leash. My dogs have playtime that is supervised. All my dogs learn early that if I say No, no means no. It takes a lot of patience. I find that teaching my dogs to be helpful, picking up items, carrying buckets, opening doors, searching for items (nose work), play sessions with flirt pole, tugs - that satisfy prey drive and daily exercise with me, tends to make them always looking to me for what's next instead of looking for trouble on their own. I don't know if you'll find my experience helpful or not, just putting it out there. Good luck.

 

[Nordika]

Here's my 10 week old puppy, no collar or leash, out with chickens. One week of training on leash and flat collar. Training is much easier when they are young. But I use the same methods of training whether puppy or adult. The only aversive being applied is voice.

 

[Ddski5]

No blowback from me. I can appreciate your experience and opinion and wish I had you side by side with me when I was raising/training Rag back in the day. Would have been interesting to see if it would have made a difference. He was not easy and very challenging but we did it. He learned as well as I learned…I most definitely learned more from him than any person, book, video or website.

I appreciate your honesty in the sense that most handlers would not reveal the details that you alluded to in that it appeared inhumane — which it is as per the description. That is not being judgemental and I offer apologies if taken that way, but being merely observational based on the context — i.e. envisioning the scene that this occurred “many times”.

then perhaps there is an alternative measure to deal and correct the issue using more 'humanely-aversive' strategy.

Ehhh…not too much far off as compared to setting up a long line with a bungy’ed prong used to negatively reinforce unacceptable behavior, especially if the Doberman is so hard, high strung with high prey drive that it chokes itself out or causes cervical vertebrae damage…at least with the ECollar, I am in control of the stim and not the frenzied Doberman- but I get and understand your mode of thinking here.

I don’t agree with your subtle glance that my actions taken were inhumane. Actions taken were for the betterment, safety, learning, training and protection of the Doberman himself. Ragnar was not your soft couch Doberman. He was a hard, high drive, highly reactive, stubborn and very independent, you had to be 100% alert with head on a swivel at all times when out in public. He required regimented daily draining and training- the complete 180dg opposite of my current Doberman.

In that post you are responding to, I was more or less trying to paint a quick picture of its damn near impossible, extremely difficult, to break through the max’ed out prey drive and bring them down to real time- “even when hit with stim of 100”. Wasn’t bragging on that, I didn’t feel good doing it and the “many times” was prob 3x. My point to Corky is to cue/correct it before Charlie amps up into prey drive. See the situation before it happens, give the verbal command when Charlie is still lucid and not jacked up wanting to chase the cats. Mark it many many many times with success, it becomes significantly easier to control and train. That’s if, they understand your command. That’s if, they do not accelerate from 0-10 prey drive in .08secs. That’s if you are able to stop/control it. If one is not able to do any of the three, then you’re are in a situation you don’t care to be in.

As per what @Ladydi posted, you post some great training ideas also. All the leash training can work with a large percentage especially if trained correctly with the right timing and cues.

I did leash to hip training all day long for weeks/months inside with cats. I used the 15’, 30’ 50’ and 100’ leashes at soccer fields 5-6x week- it worked to get the point across but as collar wise- same as leash wise. Could have stayed with the leashes for longer period of time but it was time to move on. He knew what was going on and I wanted to give him the open choices of being free with an invisible leash- more freedom to make his decisions. He also needed to understand what was acceptable and unacceptable. There were consequences for his actions when “he chose” to go against my commands and bolt after that goose, that white yippee dog that he absolutely detested. As per original pictures with the geese, him and I were successful and both learned how to control his drive and him not run wildly into it. That was a very proud moment of months of work tbh.

In the picture, Rag has a flat collar, prong and ECollar. I would use all three during our times out, all dependent on situations encountered.

Want another example? Finished soccer practice, Ragnar had a great training session with me, just performed great. He was great, I was great…we had fun, played and trained. Loaded everyone up in the truck (daughters in the back with Rag) driving 25mph through the soccer complex with windows down. That asshat bolts, jumping out of my truck crosses two soccer fields and attacks a soccer ball while game in progress. Yes, leash still on.

My current Doberman? I think I only used the ECollar 5x in her last 6yrs and only use the prong maybe 10x a year when I need her to correct and understand strict obedience is needed during certain situations. It’s absolutely insane the difference between them.

In the scheme of things, we train the Doberman in front of us with what we have and what we know- @Ravenbird. Always believed and loved that quote.

 

[Ddski5]

View attachment 163578
Here's my 10 week old puppy, no collar or leash, out with chickens. One week of training on leash and flat collar. Training is much easier when they are young. But I use the same methods of training whether puppy or adult. The only aversive being applied is voice.

Great temperament right there!

 

[Nordika]

Great temperament right there!

Thanks. He's a piece of work! The very first thing my puppies have to learn is to respect the "no" and that's enforced with scruffing the neck. His response to being told no was to bark, growl, snap, snarl and bite, not particularly cute, very serious pup. Since I had zero intention of doing bite work with him later, I nipped that in the bud ASAP. I've personally never had a 9 week old puppy with that kind of attitude/temperament before, though I've seen it in a few working line Malinois.

The first thing my pups learn is no. The second thing they learn is a recall to both command and whistle.(I also trained my ducks, chickens, and goats to recall by command and whistle) I've been training for a very long time and I just know what works for me. Here's an old 2013 video of my 12 week old BRT doing a recall off leash, she would go on to train in KNPV

I don't use a collar or leash to train a recall.

 

[Ladydi]

Nordika:
Nice work.
You and I train our dogs in similar ways with good results.
I have never used an e-collar so I have no hands on experience in that area, but I know some that have used that training method over years.
MY husband and I owned 1 Bordercollie and 2 Dobermans over the years, they are over the bridge now.
We never had the need for an e-collar but we started training real early.
Regarding Charlie ..from Corky’s original post…..I am in hopes this pup is successful.
To Corky….
Do your research first and then work with an experienced trainer of your choice as your Doberman has established a lot into his muscle memory.
Meanwhile keep everyone safe as things can happen in the blink of an eye.

Good luck to you.

 

[BGpa]

In the scheme of things, we train the Doberman in front of us with what we have and what we know-

Thats been the thing I've learned here thats been most helpful to me, too.

 

[GennyB]

Just my 2 cents..... This could be SSA (same sex aggression) which dobermans tend to be prone to. I personally would be very careful using an e collar if it is SSA. With your girl being in training for service dog work I would consider consulting a canine behavioralist so you can know for sure what you are dealing with. If not handled correctly SSA can kill your dream of using her as a service dog.
Honestly the dream may be dead because some dogs just can't overcome it. Don't give up just yet! Some dogs with the right training can overcome it.
I would start with finding out what you are dealing with.
Good luck!