Doberman Cross Breeding Project

[BGpa]

And thanks @Nordika for the FKC link to the doberman outcross project.

For those new to the breed or just now digging further on DCM, @Renzo Red its a

Very good explanation on the problem in DCM and I'm looking for updates to come.

I suppose someone could email the point of contact for more ?'s about the nuts and bolts, next steps.

I find it very gratifying the German Kennel Club gave it their blessing too.

PS: thats a handsome dog in that background pic- almost "melanistic" reminds me of someones dobe mix here on DCF.

 

[Ravenbird]

I do know someone with working Gordons. If you've ever seen these dogs working in the field, they have amazing drive and focus

I was doing scent work with a lady for the last 5 years who had a working line Gordon. That dog was brilliant and extremely talented. She died a few months ago with the dreaded Hemangiosarcoma, I believe she was 9.

 

[Nordika]

I was doing scent work with a lady for the last 5 years who had a working line Gordon. That dog was brilliant and extremely talented. She died a few months ago with the dreaded Hemangiosarcoma, I believe she was 9.

The Gordon has bloodhound in its ancestry giving them super powers when it comes to scent work.

That's just terribly sad

 

[DD4MSpock]

Just out of curiosity... is there any hope at all for us to retain a true, original, "purebred" species, even with all the medical risks? Or will TPTB try to "extinct" it in favor of their new cross breeds? I, for one, do not want the original species to become "extinct," in favor of these cross breeds. I'd be more than willing to raise a purebred, even at the risk of an early departure due to medical issues. Yes, I'd grieve and be sad not to have them, anymore. But I'd be grateful for the time I did have with them. And, then, I'd raise another, and be grateful for that time... And another... And another... And another... etc. etc.

If it protects the original species, I"m all for that. And, if the professional Dobie associations, clubs, etc. don't do what they can to preserve the original breed, then they shouldn't come kvetching to us about those who are attempting to do so, via "backyard breeding" of purebreds.

Trust me... It *will* happen.

 

[Nordika]

Just out of curiosity... is there any hope at all for us to retain a true, original, "purebred" species, even with all the medical risks? Or will TPTB try to "extinct" it in favor of their new cross breeds? I, for one, do not want the original species to become "extinct," in favor of these cross breeds. I'd be more than willing to raise a purebred, even at the risk of an early departure due to medical issues. Yes, I'd grieve and be sad not to have them, anymore. But I'd be grateful for the time I did have with them. And, then, I'd raise another, and be grateful for that time... And another... And another... And another... etc. etc.

If it protects the original species, I"m all for that. And, if the professional Dobie associations, clubs, etc. don't do what they can to preserve the original breed, then they shouldn't come kvetching to us about those who are attempting to do so, via "backyard breeding" of purebreds.

Trust me... It *will* happen.

I don't think breeders are willing to do what is necessary to save the breed. If we can take an example from the Swedish Lapphund, breed recovery is possible without outcrossing. Extreme measures are required. They limit all offspring from dog or bitch to 16. Breeding is regulated to ensure diversity, and all healthy animals are kept intact and encouraged to breed, widening the gene pool and increasing diversity. They are a very rare breed so it was easy to get everyone on the same page. Popular sire syndrome is the death knoll of all purebred dogs, whether working line or showline, both fall into this trap. Just my two cents.

Also, there has been juvenile DCM recorded in the Dobermann (8-12 weeks of age). What early departure is acceptable?

 

[Nordika]

Or will TPTB try to "extinct" it in favor of their new cross breeds?

I think you misunderstand the purpose of outcrossing. They are not trying to extinct the Dobermann, nor are they trying to recreate the breed or produce new cross breeds. This is an attempt to save the breed, as it is currently projected to extinction via lack of diversity and severe health problems. The Dobermann was created by cross breeding and outcrossing over a few decades, however, the foundation of the breed started with a small gene pool. The average Dobermann is as closely related as siblings, a very serious genetic diversity problem.

 

[BGpa]

Just out of curiosity... is there any hope at all for us to retain a true, original, "purebred" species, even with all the medical risks? Or will TPTB try to "extinct" it in favor of their new cross breeds? I, for one, do not want the original species to become "extinct," in favor of these cross breeds. I'd be more than willing to raise a purebred, even at the risk of an early departure due to medical issues. Yes, I'd grieve and be sad not to have them, anymore. But I'd be grateful for the time I did have with them. And, then, I'd raise another, and be grateful for that time... And another... And another... And another... etc. etc.

If it protects the original species, I"m all for that. And, if the professional Dobie associations, clubs, etc. don't do what they can to preserve the original breed, then they shouldn't come kvetching to us about those who are attempting to do so, via "backyard breeding" of purebreds.

Trust me... It *will* happen.

Its already happening.
The FKC "fix DCM in dobes" project thats been blessed by the German Kennel Club, is proof, top down that some breed enthusiasts and national kennel clubs are willing to repair the genetic health issues caused by Popular Sire syndrome and line inbreeding.

I read that some breeders believe there is still room to carefully improve the breed by careful breeding within the dobe purebred population.

I defer to their expertise and respect their opinion, although I am skeptical. If it were important to a broad enough group it would be underway and specific "to-do" measures supported by for example DPCA, to include as just one example- MANDATORY updates yearlt to Dobequest on all pups, throughout lifetimes, and MANDATORY confirmation of required echo/holter certified on the third party OFA.

And opening DobeQuest to all, to allow non registered or non members to use the database.

Right now thats essentially a limited data set that inaccurately skews results only to the breeders with good results, under reporting the actual status.

Again, I dont have "a dog in this fight" as I am not a breeder, show competitor, handler, trainer- no conflict of interest that involves maintaining the status quo.

It might be the status quo IS the way to go...
I'm impressed with the background of the people on the Board and the educational effort DPCA has done and continues to do...thats proof of good intent, at least.

So not on any side in this as I am not qualified to "debate". Just expressing that;

I'm just looking at this from an intellectually interested and hugely complex topic that I barely know enough to comment upon, fully aware I may be ignorant...always learning.

So thats just "My $0.02 and YMMV" disclosure, and
Again no disrespect meant in anyway to those who disagree. Its a fascinating conversation.

 

[DD4MSpock]

I think you misunderstand the purpose of outcrossing. They are not trying to extinct the Dobermann, nor are they trying to recreate the breed or produce new cross breeds. This is an attempt to save the breed, as it is currently projected to extinction via lack of diversity and severe health problems.

And how long before that "projected extinction" becomes reality?

Trust me, I totally understand the objectives of outcrossing, and I thoroughly understand what Karl Friedrich did to create the original breed. But the end of his work (and the standard evolution of the breed over the last 100+ years and over several countries (i.e. "Euro" vs "American")) has produced a standard in each country. Less than perfect, perhaps, but a standard, nonetheless. A standard that has stood the test of time, even with the imperfections of DCM, etc. IMHO, any attempt at outcrossing against that standard, imperfect as it may be, will result in "less that pure" breeds/species, within the context of that standard. As stated above, I don't want that standard breed I know to go extinct, even with the medical/genetic issues/risks. I'm willing to deal with those issues/risks, repeatedly if necessary, to ensure the standard I know, will never go extinct. So, if that 6mo pup I acquired is diagnosed with DCM, I do whatever I can to ensure his/her life is the best it can ever be... and I then ensure that their end of life, whenever it happens, is as painless and without suffering as it can be. And then I grieve for a while. And then I start again, with another purebred pup.

I'm not ready/willing/able to give up on that Standard breed I know, without a fight.

 

[DD4MSpock]

Its already happening.
The FKC "fix DCM in dobes" project thats been blessed by the German Kennel Club, is proof, top down that some breed enthusiasts and national kennel clubs are willing to repair the genetic health issues caused by Popular Sire syndrome and line inbreeding.

I read that some breeders believe there is still room to carefully improve the breed by careful breeding within the dobe purebred population.

I'm all for that. As long as it looks like a dobie, walks like a dobie, barks like a dobie, behaves like a dobie, I'm OK with whatever "less than pure" breeding that may be needed to save the overall species. Like I said before, even the "UK Royal Family" realized it would never survive without a little "genetic diversity." Thus, Princess Diana, Princess Catherine, etc. etc.

What I would *not* want is for any of this outcrossing to result in a brand new species. No more "Doodleman Pinschers" If the "ourcrossers" can guarantee that, then I'll reconsider.

 

[BGpa]

I'm all for that. As long as it looks like a dobie, walks like a dobie, barks like a dobie, behaves like a dobie, I'm OK with whatever "less than pure" breeding that may be needed to save the overall species. Like I said before, even the "UK Royal Family" realized it would never survive without a little "genetic diversity." Thus, Princess Diana, Princess Catherine, etc. etc.

What I would *not* want is for any of this outcrossing to result in a brand new species. No more "Doodleman Pinschers" If the "ourcrossers" can guarantee that, then I'll reconsider.

I think we are on the same side here: to the betterment of the breed.

Not to beat a dead horse, but
As I understand it, careful outcrossing to reduce DCM then back breeding to "pure enough doberman" is how to do so.

As @Ravenbird has mentioned its been done with dalmations, and
How its being discussed and done in other breeds, brittany's, goldens, labs, GSDs etc to address health issues from over-in-breeding there.

Careful outcross/back cross (or however you define the terms as to process- someone help me out here) is NOT the same as designer dogs.

In Service Dog forums and some of the literature, careful cross and outbreeding is done to improve temperament, sociabilty etc.

Its functional breeding to a set of characteristics. Just as show dog breeders focus on conformation and current judging preferences, or working or sport dog breeders seek drive, nerve, bite, agility, speed whatever- its form follows function.

I'm intrigued by the doberman as one of a few breeds that "can do it all" for my needs, and if the definition of improved longevity and better heart health to get that is part of the "standard" as well as good looks and working ability, that just makes practical sense to me.

If you invest in quality anything, one desireable aspect is longer life to improve the ROI on the higher cost.

That it also happens to be in the dogs best interest is a plus if not a priority...

Its not a zero sum game.
The devil is in the details, of course...so I'm eagerly awaiting more info on the plan and process by FKC, as blessed by German Kennel Club.

In contrast to the US based informal Disappearing Doberman Project that has since halted due to "economic reasons"

The Project

A non-doberman is bred to a doberman to produce the first generation ("F1") outcross litter An F1 dog is bred to a doberman to produce the second generation ("F2") and first backcross litter...

www.dobermanpreservationproject.com

In the end, this FKC effort is all by itself cracking open the conversation as a counterpoint to the "we still have room to line breed still"
and perhaps another roadmap to success,

Certainly IMHO better vs "shrug" and dismissed as the sort of "not invented here, not gonna talk about it, just get me another dog" kind of mindset thats understandable short-term but not sustainable long term in the face of facts.

Its a win win if properly framed, if we can agree on what we agree upon vs quibble on the smaller subset of that we disagree on.

 

[Ravenbird]

I'm all for that. As long as it looks like a dobie, walks like a dobie, barks like a dobie, behaves like a dobie, I'm OK with whatever "less than pure" breeding that may be needed to save the overall species.

Then you do agree with the outcross program, because it is designed to go back to a Doberman Pinscher dog after using their out-crosses for breeding back to purebreds. It's indeed the whole point, they are not trying to make a new breed at all.

The dog that Mr. Dobermann produced is long gone and swept under the rug anyway. Compare today's Dobes with the ones of 1920, that medium size muscular terrier type is gone as is the (over) sharpness. Reading about the tamping down of temperament for the American show Dobe to me was the end of the original Doberman. The Americans *had* to even out the sharpness because few people could live with these dogs and a few judges were getting tired of being bit. And somewhere along the way devoted turned into clingy and the whining started - in WWII these were silent sentry dogs! A whine or bark would be death for a foxhole full of soldiers. Now they whine if you close the bathroom door. I'm actually quite happy with the breeds they chose to do this out crossing with, as it seems to align with the original design. Everything evolves with time, sometimes for the best and sometimes not.

And then I grieve for a while. And then I start again, with another purebred pup.

But what about the life of a young dog brought into this world to suffer? If it gets to the point where every Dobe is doomed to suffer DCM, it is beyond time to stop breeding them. We followed along with a beautiful story from UK and my eyes fill with tears just remembering that diary, almost daily, of a man and his dying dog.*** @JanS, help me remember the name, that thread should be required reading for anyone who owns Dobermans.*** It's incredibly difficult emotionally to watch a dog suffer for a day but to live with it for months or a year or more? It's true that stuff happens, we never know what life will bring. But to purposely breed a dog with congenital defects that will prevent them from enjoying life is IMO immoral and selfish. No different than breeding flat faces that struggle to breathe- those dogs can be bred for longer snouts while still preserving the breed traits.

I've had all of 3 dogs in my life, all Dobermans. The first was a rescue, died at about age 3 from vWD, internal bleeding. The second was born in 1992, lived to be 11, died in her sleep (so yes, probably Sudden Death/heart related), never sick a day in her life. I refer to her as my perfect dog. and then almost 20 years later I got my current dog. Hunting hard, shocked and hoping the internets were full of lies after reading what drastic turns had come about for this breed. Going over & beyond trying to find a dog that wouldn't disappoint, a reputable breeder who also ticked all the boxes, did all the tests, titled over & beyond, and when my puppy was a year old her sire died of sudden death at age 7. It's become a soapbox for me, I love this breed so much, that to watch the DPCA do NOTHING to actually address this, work on it from any and all angles, is shameful. The reason I support this outcross program is because it gives me hope that the Doberman will be around in the future and better than ever.

I'm of the age where Asha could very well be my last dog, So my ranting is for improvements that I won't live long enough to be able to enjoy.

 

[JanS]

@JanS, help me remember the name, that thread should be required reading for anyone who owns Dobermans.*** It's incredibly difficult emotionally to watch a dog suffer for a day but to live with it for months or a year or more? It's true that stuff happens, we never know what life will bring.

Oh darn, I remember what you're talking about but I can't remember who it was or the title of the thread either. If I think of it I will post the link.

 

[BGpa]

Like I said before, even the "UK Royal Family" realized it would never survive without a little "genetic diversity." Thus, Princess Diana, Princess Catherine, etc. etc.

Lol, like you said before, ISWYDT...
You forgot Meghan and The Spare...

The royals most likely to give Harry and Meghan a 'warm welcome'

A royal expert has claimed that while there are those who will be 'as constructive as the situation allows' in a quest for better relations - others feel 'totally betrayed' by the couple.

www.dailymail.com

Or the Spanish Hapsburg Royal line

Inbreeding of Spanish Royalty

Or...