Is the doberman doomed?

[Ravenbird]

And speaking of why it's so very difficult to get more diversity in the Doberman, I read once that Muck von Brunia (green line in the above pedigree) is in about 90% of every Dobermans pedigree. So go on Dobequest and keep going backward on your own dogs pedigree starting with the tail male (very top line) sire line to the 1920's. I did this and found Muck down almost every male line in the whole pedigree. That was years ago, may have even been my 1990's dog, before I got Asha... Time consuming, but eye opening. All roads lead to Muck.

 

[Sunje]

And speaking of why it's so very difficult to get more diversity in the Doberman, I read once that Muck von Brunia (green line in the above pedigree) is in about 90% of every Dobermans pedigree. So go on Dobequest and keep going backward on your own dogs pedigree starting with the tail male (very top line) sire line to the 1920's. I did this and found Muck down almost every male line in the whole pedigree. That was years ago, may have even been my 1990's dog, before I got Asha... Time consuming, but eye opening. All roads lead to Muck.

Not sure what that dog died from, but that dog was 13 when he died. Not bad at least by today's standards. Maybe not so much for the 1930s.

I can't remember off the top of my head who the 7 sires were, or whether they had Muck behind them.

 

[DD4MSpock]

Not sure what that dog died from, but that dog was 13 when he died. Not bad at least by today's standards. Maybe not so much for the 1930s.

I can't remember off the top of my head who the 7 sires were, or whether they had Muck behind them.

Mr. Spock lived to be 14 in the mid 70's, even with cancer at the end.

 

[Ravenbird]

He was a great dog, for sure. The point was that this is one of the reasons that the relatedness of Dobermans can't be avoided. Even the best dogs can still be used too much, as later down the pike you can't get away from it as it's in every pedigree. I'll double check on the 7 sires, but bet they all go back to him.

 

[Ravenbird]

I can't remember off the top of my head who the 7 sires were

From DPCA:

Illena & The Seven Sires | DPCA

dpca.org

 

[BG1]

And speaking of why it's so very difficult to get more diversity in the Doberman, I read once that Muck von Brunia (green line in the above pedigree) is in about 90% of every Dobermans pedigree. So go on Dobequest and keep going backward on your own dogs pedigree starting with the tail male (very top line) sire line to the 1920's. I did this and found Muck down almost every male line in the whole pedigree. That was years ago, may have even been my 1990's dog, before I got Asha... Time consuming, but eye opening. All roads lead to Muck.

Very interesting. There was a poster here or at the other forum, and at reddit named "@kaloric" who like you, @Ravenbird rued the narrowing of diversity due to "Popular Sire" syndrome, naming "Eddie" as another example, iirc.

Thanks for the Pedigree.com reminder; colors highlighting makes it easier for a visual learner to "see" the pattern.

I have a lot of work to do understanding how to parse these databanks. It would be interesting to somehow integrate them, or automate to cross reference the data siloed in each, maybe by AI? And color code a view format

so one could "see" some lines absent in others, and how that pattern shows up in data of dogs as it crosses oceans, etc.

From that DPCA article:
"
Quote from an old book entitled The Doberman Pinscher by Milo Denlinger 1953:

“Three of the famous 7 died as a result of heart attacks. Domossi at age of 7, Emperor at age 8, and Alcor shortly before his 10th birthday. Uranus, Rameses, & Favoriet lived to the age of 10. Illena was still alive at this writing at the age of 12.

“The year 1941 was the golden year of the American Doberman. That year alone gave birth to Illena and the younger four of the Seven Sires: Emperor and Favoriet in the spring, and Alcor and Dictator in the fall, the latter two within a day of each other. All of the five were sired by the older three except Dictator, who was Domossi’s younger brother. Rameses, the oldest was whelped in 1938, Domossi and Uranus in 1939. THREE OF THE FAMOUS SEVEN DIED AS A RESULT OF HEART ATTACKS:

• Domossi, at the age of 7
• Emperor, at the age of 8
• Alcor shortly before his tenth birthday.
• Uranus, Rameses and Favoriet lived to the age of ten."

So, bottomline it for me- what do you look for to avoid very inbred lines, and how,

To primarily weight health/screen for as little DCM as COD, plus longevity?

I personally would give up on perfect head, or swan neck, or best record in IGP if I had to for longer healthy life...

That may not be rewarded in the show ring or working trials...but may be the preference of a type of buyer thats worth developing a new breeder developing a line towards, correct?

 

[Ravenbird]

So, bottomline it for me- what do you look for to avoid very inbred lines, and how,

To primarily weight health/screen for as little DCM as COD, plus longevity?

I've narrowed it down to longevity in the pedigree, period. No matter if it is cancer, DCM, bloat, accident, I don't care. COD cancer at age 7 is not any better than getting DCM at age 7. And not just the sire/dams, but the siblings of those. Knowledge is power. Perhaps inbreeding of dogs that live to 13 would be good, but most males are not collected and most females have their last litter by age 7, so we've automatically eliminated "most" breedings to long-lived dogs.

The worst thing is, is so many BYB dogs are AKC, but not in Dobequest database, and how many are not even registered? If Dobequest is lacking 50% of the dogs how do we even know if they aren't out living the ones that are on Dobequest? If they aren't in the database, the database is completely inaccurate by percentage.

 

[BG1]

Then the extinction of the species (as they define it) is on them if it happens. I hope not, but if they're going to be fussy about it... Do they not understand what's at stake? Goodness, even the UK Royal family started accepting "outsiders" to keep the genetics viable.

ISWYDT...
I was just reading the tea leaves on the Kings visit to the US and DailyMail reporting on Prince William and family. My guess is the handoff is coming soon.