2 Dobes, 2 GSDs, 2 Mals

[Ddski5]

I would have enjoyed participating in this, just watching and learning the pack moving together and how they respond to each other. What a fun time in a fun environment.

There is a difference here with these vs dogs milling around socializing in the back yard? All these are trained and have a sense of purpose, kinda like a higher level of calling. They know certain actions are expected and certain actions are not acceptable even beforehand.

So before the trek, did y’all mill around and they all sniffed and greeted each other? or out, let’s go, put feet to dirt?

 

[Ravenbird]

So before the trek, did y’all mill around and they all sniffed and greeted each other? or out, let’s go, put feet to dirt?

I addressed this in your post about Frejya's backyard incident, but yeah/no we don't let new dogs sniff & greet. Putting feet to the dirt is the best. Asha knew all but the one new Mal, and she did hackle up a bit when she realize there was a new one. I put her on a down by my feet, Michelle called the mal back closer to her, and this is all it takes for well trained dogs to be reminded that the handler is in charge. If someone was obviously not in control of one dog out of the 6, it puts 5 dogs in trouble. Why I always get out of the way, off the path when someone else comes by with a strange dog. Even leashed up, that's no promise they have control. All the dogs that ever charged me had a leash on with no owner attached to it.

 

[BG1]

Post in thread '2 Dobes, 2 GSDs, 2 Mals'

Nov 7, 2025

I would have enjoyed participating in this, just watching and learning the pack moving together and how they respond to each other. What a fun time in a fun environment.

There is a difference here with these vs dogs milling around socializing in the back yard? All these are trained and have a sense of purpose, kinda like a higher level of calling. They know certain actions are expected and certain actions are not acceptable even beforehand.

So before the trek, did y’all mill around and they all sniffed and greeted each other? or out, let’s go, put feet to dirt?

• Ddski5

• 

 

[BG1]

Putting feet to the dirt is the best. Asha knew all but the one new Mal, and she did hackle up a bit when she realize there was a new one. I put her on a down by my feet, Michelle called the mal back closer to her, and this is all it takes for well trained dogs to be reminded that the handler is in charge.

This is the money quote, to me.
This takes presence, insight, and practice imho. Some are just naturals...or from hard work...hard lessons; anyone ever see the movie "Buck"?

Always interesting to see it IRL.
The video was great...
Respect to you @Ravenbird and your friend.
She has the touch it looks like, to me, also.

 

[Ravenbird]

Some are just naturals...or from hard work...hard lessons; anyone ever see the movie "Buck"?

And before him, it was Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt, both of whom influenced my starting young horses. There were a lot of good methods taught through these guys, but also as time went on into the 90's, so many copycats raked in $$$ but didn't have the natural talent, calling themselves "natural horseman"... The stories I could tell...LOL.

I do agree that some people have an other-worldly gift with animals, their connection and reading the minds and body language of animals is a gift. I come from a musically talented family but I didn't get the gift except appreciation for music. Playing an instrument and singing was just not in the cards for me, but from my earliest memories my mind revolved around animals and nature.

 

[Rits]

There is a difference here with these vs dogs milling around socializing in the back yard?

There is huge a difference too on home turf vs in a place that belongs to none of these dogs! They feel no need to resource guard any of it because its not theirs to begin with. It helps too like @Ravenbird said that the dogs are all under control. If any of them are out, and the human doesn't pick up on it and correct the dog themself, one of the other dogs will.

 

[BG1]

There is huge a difference too on home turf vs in a place that belongs to none of these dogs! They feel no need to resource guard any of it because its not theirs to begin with. It helps too like @Ravenbird said that the dogs are all under control. If any of them are out, and the human doesn't pick up on it and correct the dog themself, one of the other dogs will.

In my experience with dogs in off-leash dog-parks, closed in fenced in a 1/4 acre vs wide open like a beach or someplace with endless trails this is exactly true.

 

[Ravenbird]

In my experience with dogs in off-leash dog-parks, closed in fenced in a 1/4 acre vs wide open like a beach or someplace with endless trails this is exactly true.

Also, a dog that's gone to the same dog park for years, knows the park, knows the regular dogs, and here comes a new one with a bit of an attitude. If that regular dog is a wee bit dominant and the new comer is very dominant and puts up a challenge, all of a sudden you have a fight with a regular dog who never got in fights at that park for years.

I agree that open space might help, but the biggest problem remains with untrained dogs not looking to their owner for guidance and order.

 

[Aaron56]

Yes, collar-wise is a thing. They know when it's off. My dog still behaves without it, still has an instant recall. A seat belt doesn't prevent accidents but it's nice to have one on if you find yourself in a wreck.

If your dog behaved without it - You would not still be using it after so long.



Those collars are no different than pinch collars in the way they can both be used to get a yelp out of some dogs that would otherwise not be deterred and ignored verbal commands.

That yelp is caused by pain and not some sort of treat waving or gentle voices / requests instead of commands BS.


Not knocking a trainer having ALL of the tools in the box at their disposal but...

Shock collars do not dispense 'treats' - Usually the exact opposite.

 

[Aaron56]

Yup. Don't worry, I'm not here to judge your pack and I know you know that! I only mentioned it because the above criticism said, "Because they all have shock collars on is why they are behaving." and that isn't true either! Theres one right there plain as day without one and looks to be behaving!

Why are those things not allowed in any sort of competition or conformation sports again???

 

[Aaron56]

I agree that open space might help, but the biggest problem remains with untrained dogs not looking to their owner for guidance and order.

Agatha does not look to me for 'guidance' before deciding to hump any other dog she feels like.

 

[BG1]

Also, a dog that's gone to the same dog park for years, knows the park, knows the regular dogs, and here comes a new one with a bit of an attitude. If that regular dog is a wee bit dominant and the new comer is very dominant and puts up a challenge, all of a sudden you have a fight with a regular dog who never got in fights at that park for years.

I agree that open space might help, but the biggest problem remains with untrained dogs not looking to their owner for guidance and order.

Completely agree. Untrained dogs&indifferent owner combo...is the one to watch.

Every situation is of course space, dogs, owners energy-guidance dependent but I notice from going to different dogparks at different times, there is often a group of "regulars"- who come to be social...

And the dogs that are well trained, responsive, aware are generally reflecting whats going on with their humans...tend to bang together...

An odd duck, human or dog enters and sometimes the group energy changes...

(I have a funny story on that- remember the Adam Sandler movie that popularized "circle of trust"...)

So IMHO its up to me and our human pals to be the calm leaders, keep it fun, and the group interaction within limits...by example.

Often I see that if what you are putting out is fun and calm and grounded, the puppies end up underneath you after getting their ya-ya's out...

Not tryna be mystical or anything but Dogs are like Horses, near spiritual entities that are deeply in touch with energy. Thats just nature.

 

[Ravenbird]

@Aaron56 I realize you like to poke the bear, you can't seem to accept that when someone has a great dog as a result of some serious training, a f-ton of patience, blood, sweat & tears, you still think you know more about how I could just take the collars off if she was so good. Well she's good but she's not perfect. No dog is. She has an attitude that she was born with - stronger than any of your dogs ever dreamed of. Oh yeah, I forgot, you don't believe in genetic temperament, it's only how you raise them.

Those collars are no different than pinch collars in the way they can both be used to get a yelp out of some dogs that would otherwise not be deterred and ignored verbal commands.

The difference is that an e-collar can be used 1/2 mile away. My dog has never yelped on a prong collar, wtf are you even talking about? You know absolutely nothing about a dog in high drive and how different it is to call a dog to recall if it's in hot pursuit of a squirrel into a busy street? being attacked by a loose pit bull? What, you have perfect dogs? That's great, sorry I don't.

Not knocking a trainer having ALL of the tools in the box at their disposal but...

Shock collars do not dispense 'treats' - Usually the exact opposite.

You don't have to tell me how an electronic collar works, you are showing your ignorance here.

Why are those things not allowed in any sort of competition or conformation sports again???

There's a string of titles behind my dogs name and also on @Rits' dogs names on our signature here. None of those competitions allow e-collars or prong collars and many are completely off leash. They are also a controlled situation where there are no loose dogs coming at me, no busy traffic, and probably no mountain lions or bears. Tell me how many competitions you've done with your dogs off leash with other dogs on the field working? How many competitions have you done with directions given to the dog from 30' away? List them here for us, I want to know how well your dogs obey off leash with no e-collar on. I'll wait.

Agatha does not look to me for 'guidance' before deciding to hump any other dog she feels like.

That's because she has zero respect for you or the other dog or for any imagined rules in your head.


To the rest of this Chat Forum, I'm pretty tired of trying to encourage people who have tough dogs, to let them know that you can have a good dog if you put the work in, just to be challenged and get snarky remarks.
For those of you who don't have tough dogs, you don't need this encouragement, your dog was never a major problem and you never had to work hard to make a good citizen out of your dog. But some of you got a tough one and I'm just saying it can be done. If you don't need an e-collar, if you don't need a prong collar, if your dog gets along with 100% of humans and dogs and cats every living day, that's peachy. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'm happy for you.

I have boundaries and I'm way too old for cheap sh!t, my dog knows that, but some people still have to be told. Cut the snark, @Aaron56.

 

[BG1]

@Aaron56 I realize you like to poke the bear, you can't seem to accept that when someone has a great dog as a result of some serious training, a f-ton of patience, blood, sweat & tears, you still think you know more about how I could just take the collars off if she was so good. Well she's good but she's not perfect. No dog is. She has an attitude that she was born with - stronger than any of your dogs ever dreamed of. Oh yeah, I forgot, you don't believe in genetic temperament, it's only how you raise them.


The difference is that an e-collar can be used 1/2 mile away. My dog has never yelped on a prong collar, wtf are you even talking about? You know absolutely nothing about a dog in high drive and how different it is to call a dog to recall if it's in hot pursuit of a squirrel into a busy street? being attacked by a loose pit bull? What, you have perfect dogs? That's great, sorry I don't.


You don't have to tell me how an electronic collar works, you are showing your ignorance here.


There's a string of titles behind my dogs name and also on @Rits' dogs names on our signature here. None of those competitions allow e-collars or prong collars and many are completely off leash. They are also a controlled situation where there are no loose dogs coming at me, no busy traffic, and probably no mountain lions or bears. Tell me how many competitions you've done with your dogs off leash with other dogs on the field working? How many competitions have you done with directions given to the dog from 30' away? List them here for us, I want to know how well your dogs obey off leash with no e-collar on. I'll wait.



That's because she has zero respect for you or the other dog or for any imagined rules in your head.


To the rest of this Chat Forum, I'm pretty tired of trying to encourage people who have tough dogs, to let them know that you can have a good dog if you put the work in, just to be challenged and get snarky remarks.
For those of you who don't have tough dogs, you don't need this encouragement, your dog was never a major problem and you never had to work hard to make a good citizen out of your dog. But some of you got a tough one and I'm just saying it can be done. If you don't need an e-collar, if you don't need a prong collar, if your dog gets along with 100% of humans and dogs and cats every living day, that's peachy. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'm happy for you.

I have boundaries and I'm way too old for cheap sh!t, my dog knows that, but some people still have to be told. Cut the snark, @Aaron56.

Heh. I hesitate to apply any emoticon for fear of adding fuel to this...except "popcorn"...lol.

I "get you" on some comments @Aaron56

And also "get" @Ravenbird pushback.
I personally value hearing from you both, for different reasons, and I sense you are both coming from the right place, training your dogs for your needs.

I am trying to determine if the concept of collar-wise applies on Bonnie- ie, can I sufficiently get and keep her attention and compliance on an off leash recall without the collar on?

We're past the PAT standard by NSAWC for 80% or better score to pass...but I want close to 100% if I'm off leash heel or trail roaming-I like that she ranges nose down like a hunting dog, and watches far like a sight hound...my old ears and eyes aren't what they used to be so I encourage her to do that ahead on or route but within sight so I can key on her body language as "early warning"

So the fun part is how much do you encourage prey drive, while also controlling what the dog does with it...

My informal mentor from another webforum @MikeP has described how hunters train with pea whistles- thats another way to "reach out and touch" if the dog is so focused it might not hear you in a high stimulus/over threahold state, correct?

Thats the advantage to an ecollar for me...as an insurance policy if dog is too far to hear me in a high noise environment, or nose down in a gopher hole for sniffies...

Murphy's Law #102 on technolgy applies: it will fail when you need it most and our old Dogtra1900s is fading...supposedly water proof but too much kong on a rope retirval from the surf has corroded the terminals I suspect...
Point being- an ecollar is a tool but one must train the base, of course- back to strong dog, high drive, stimulating enviromnents...
@Ravenbird your hikes in javelina and cougar country are about as high risk as it gets outside of wardogs in the sandbox...so I admire the work you put in.

Like I admire a couple of your examples @Aaron56 keeping the girls in the yard, not on the street.

Testing continues...

 

[Rits]

Why are those things not allowed in any sort of competition or conformation sports again???

Because they are training tools used *in training* and competitions are done in a controlled environment in a small window of their life. Competitions are used to showcase the dog's ability and the training put in. But, after the competition is over, we're all realistic and don't expect our dogs to be ON point 24/7 in environments where you cannot control everything. I may drive safe, but that doesn't mean the other people on the road do, so I wear my seatbelt to protect myself in case of an accident.

That yelp is caused by pain and not some sort of treat waving or gentle voices / requests instead of commands BS.

We use prong collars in bite sports to build drive... an eagerness to do what we are asking. If they were in pain, they would not want to do it.

they can both be used to get a yelp out of some dogs that would otherwise not be deterred and ignored verbal commands.

If a dog is yelping when using a prong or ecollar then you are 100% using it incorrectly, which I am sorry, again tells me you don't fully understand what you are trying to argue against.

Agatha does not look to me for 'guidance' before deciding to hump any other dog she feels like.

Maybe spend more time on building a better relationship with your dogs instead of creating issues online for the thrill of it instead and maybe she will start looking to you for guidance more often?

 

[Ddski5]

For those of you who don't have tough dogs, you don't need this encouragement, your dog was never a major problem and you never had to work hard to make a good citizen out of your dog. But some of you got a tough one and I'm just saying it can be done. If you don't need an e-collar, if you don't need a prong collar, if your dog gets along with 100% of humans and dogs and cats every living day, that's peachy.

If you’ve ever had a tough, high drive, independent Doberman with attitude you will understand and agree with this- One just truly does not have any idea. You make think you do but I promise you…you don’t have a clue. It’s a completely opposite side of thinking and significantly harder than your normal dog.
I think of it as trying to train and keep a mountain lion in check. It’s a daily challenge.

Every now/then someone comes on here and make some pretty outlandish statements. They project confidence and experience, therefore I generally respect their thoughts of difference. Sit back, watch and observe to see if there is some cool insight that I don’t see…. or watch them continually make the ignorance.

If your dog behaved without it - You would not still be using it after so long.

Again, you do not have a Doberman that requires the necessity of having an ECollar. Notice I didn’t use shock collar- if you had experience with this you would know that an ECollar just does not send a stim but it also can vibrate or send a beep/noise.

Those collars are no different than pinch collars in the way they can both be used to get a yelp out of some dogs that would otherwise not be deterred and ignored verbal commands.

There is a significant difference- ECollar allows for freedom to be completely off leash whereas a prong collar is on leash. It has been years since I used the stim button on Freyja. At 100yds, the vibrate will have her turn on a dime and do whatever command I ask here to do. To me, sometimes it’s better, easier to use the ECollar to get her attention- push of a button rather than an out loud command. Can you think of any instances like this- I can think of many.

That yelp is caused by pain and not some sort of treat waving or gentle voices / requests instead of commands BS.

No yelp with mine.

Shock collars do not dispense 'treats' - Usually the exact opposite.

My goal of an ECollar is to get attention not to reward- even though, there was a guy on here a couple years ago that was using it to identify a “YES”, a reward for good behavior. Interesting thought tbh, classical conditioning at its finest.

Why are those things not allowed in any sort of competition or conformation sports again???

Controlled environment vs society…

Agatha does not look to me for 'guidance' before deciding to hump any other dog she feels like.

This right here just seals the deal with me…
If you had any kind of control, obedience, or training with Agatha then she would know this is not acceptable behavior. No way would she not even attempt it.


It’s really wrong for folks to make statements like these without having the experience/knowledge to back it up.

 

[Aaron56]

It’s really wrong for folks to make statements like these without having the experience/knowledge to back it up.

Over 20 years of owning and raising Dobermans and have never, ever had the need for a shock collar...




I don't buy the BS for a second that you people that DO use them are 'only' using them for the little buzzing sound they can make. Nope...

You are using them as 'correction' tools and I bet some with harder dogs are dialing that level of 'correction' way on up there.

In my opinion - If you 'require' a shock collar OR a pocket full of tasty dog treats (talking long term here and not initial training stuff) - You are not a 'good' dog trainer. (which is WHY treats and shock collars are NOT allowed in competitions)


The entire point of using tools such as pinch collars, shock collars and pockets full of treats is to train your dog to the point that you do not 'need' those tools any longer for them to be able to respond to whatever in the manner you have trained them to respond.

That every single dog in that picture HAD shock collars on says everything about their actual level of training that one needs to know.

 

[BG1]

I wonder if it would be productive to just ask:

How do you use your ecollar, tone, buzz, zap and for what?
I'd like to pick up some tips from experienced owners. I read there are lots of ways to use them, and it can get arcane indeed.

Mike Ellis has a REALLY good video on it, noting its historical use has evolved significantly and there is no one standardized way. (He references the Dogtra with a lot of subtlety and features available to use for a variety of things.)

He gives upside and dowmside, ie strengths and weaknesses but without judging which, and notes the key is careful use to avoid creating "suspicious beliefs".

About - Michael Ellis School

About Michael Ellis & The School Facility Michael is an internationally renowned dog trainer, and teacher of dog trainers, with over forty years of experience in competitive dog sports, practical working dog training, and companion dog training. He has taught extensively to a very diverse group...

michaelellisschool.com

 

[BG1]

BTW, you can get some good stuff by various trainers on Leerburg, including step by step on ecollars:

Remote Collar Master Class with Michael Ellis

This is a Remote Collar Master Class taught by Michael Ellis with 10 hours of content on introducing pressure, aversives, and corrections to your dog in clear and concise way.

university.leerburg.com

 

[Aaron56]

Thats the advantage to an ecollar for me...as an insurance policy if dog is too far to hear me in a high noise environment,

SNIP...

Like I admire a couple of your examples @Aaron56 keeping the girls in the yard, not on the street.

Testing continues...

Don't think for a second that your Doberman can ever 'not' hear you due to the environment and other noises going on. They can...

Example: Regardless of what tools / machinery I happen to be using at whatever time in the big shop, and regardless of how loud they are - If I see Agatha get up, grab one of her balls and run to the door - That means she just heard a vehicle pull up outside AND has determined (differentiated the particular sound) that it is a particular human that she likes. Always without fail carries a ball with her when running to the door opening because she knows (from the sound that whatever 'particular vehicle' made who exactly it belonged to.

The UPS truck always sounds the same too!

(My UPS guy is really cool and NOT intimidated by any fidos. Seems very dog friendly. Took only a few times letting him pet on Agatha and get close for her to figure out that he was a good guy and associate the sound of the truck with the person)

I looked up here recently while working (machines running) to see Agatha get up, grab her ball and run for the door. I stopped what I was doing and went to look for myself and her 'friend' Josh was pulled up on the street out front and just getting out of his truck.

His truck is newer than mine and not something that most would consider loud. I heard nothing over the sound of the machines myself but she did...

The hearing abilities are way beyond what most people give them credit for. Everything about it is a lot more sensitive than for us humans. Not just the frequencies they can hear that we can't but also how they can tune out background noise and localize in on the direction.



That dog 'heard you' just fine regardless of whatever background noise stuff you happened to have going on at the time. Some dogs will hear a command just fine and then proceed to ignore the shit out of it.

Which is why some will opt for a... SHOCK COLLAR.

That machine in the upper middle behind the dust collector is a good quality machine from Germany and well maintained. There are no squeaky wheels or bearings in need of grease. Machine makes no sounds, or volume, or vibrations that any normal person with normal hearing would find objectionable if hearing it running.

That machine produces a particular frequency of whatever that causes Agatha to shit herself and run away every single time it is turned on when she is around.

Out of 3 different Dobermans around that machine she is the only one that really hates that particular frequency of sound.




That dog heard you just fine.