Importance of Temperament in Breeding

[BG1]

I'm going to share an experience I had today. Flint is being introduced to a bite pillow. He does not bite hard on it like he does with a tug toy made of jute or a toy rope. He just kinda puts his teeth on it and soaks it, no tugging at all. Granted this toy is still very new, but I started to wonder if he had enough drive to bite something that made him open his jaw wider than he is used to.

Today I took him to a public park, not a dog park, where we go every day and we play. He doesn't bother other people or other dogs and has only the ecollar on the whole time.

Some idiot teenagers had a black fluffy dog about 30lbs going nuts at the end of the leash. I put Flint in a heel and we were walking to the other end of the park to give them space. The teen holding the leash lost their grip on it and the dog charged Flint. There was tense sniffing, then as the boy picked his dog up it started to snap at Flint and lost its mind. Flint moved forward and his hackles went up, but I called him back into a heel with an ecollar stim.

We walked to the end of the park without incident. I didn't want to end it on a bad note, so I took out the ball on a rope and we tugged. I hear the teenagers cussing up a storm, and when I looked, that same dog was charging us again, dragging the leash behind it. I thought the kid was going to be able to catch it before it got to us, so again I told Flint to "down" so he wouldn't try to charge, just in case. Despite seeing a dog and person run at us, he obeyed.

The kid fumbled his dog and it got to Flint a second time. Flint showed his teeth and chest bumped the other dog. They snapped at the air, but no injuries. The boy grabbed his dog finally, and again I told Flint to down once I knew we were in the clear. Again, Flint obeyed.

At that point I walked with the kid, leaving Flint where he was, and I explained very calmly that an ecollar might help if the leash wasn't working out. I was trying to be calm and give them slack since they were teenagers and teens are empty headed as all hell.

When we were done talking, I told them have a nice day, returned to Flint (still in a down despite being 50 paces away or so) and put him in a heel. We went home.

I've never seen Flint show his teeth in a serious manner the entire time I've had him. I didn't think he had it in him to stand his ground like that.

Idk if this is insight at all or just a story. But I was certainly surprised to see him on the defensive when his typical behavior was avoiding conflict as much as possible until today.

I have seen same in Bonnie. As she got to the 2.5 yr old mature stage she showed more self confidence but with restraint in declining the interest of a knucklehead puppy that wants to play. She still likes to play but is selective. I watch the interactions carefully- when I sense a dig is a bully I step in fast and deconflict, decisively, calmly and with praise for compliance. I notice a bit of shock in some other dogs eyes as if they have not rxperienced many corrections, and also some soft ears and eyes for the praise- as if not hearing that as well.
I dont want Bonnie to be a bumky so I check her, if it looks like she is tempted to go after the other dog once stood down. I've read somewhere that if dobes realize their power it can be abused.
Always always in a social interaction if in doubt I want her to return on recall, like NOW. That saves things from getting too out of control and besides we are usually doing our own thing together training which she prefers anyway.

 

[Rits]

Dogs that are constantly very shy about a new exposure have a very different genetic code than one who is fearless about new exposures. Period.

100% A genetically well bred doberman that is stable and solid in their temperament will handle new experiences with ease with NO training. That is the beauty of good genetics. We stayed a week with some long distance friends who we have met once before but Trendy wasn't in the picture the first time. They have two teenage kids and our other friend couple came up with their almost two year old son. Trendy who had been around ZERO children prior, and acted like she's been around them her entire life. There was no warm up phase no treats involved. Just instantly so incredible with them. And then when the kids friends came over? Also amazing. I can't train that into her. That's just who she is.

To go from this to that...




Seeing what kind of dog you have with no training means when you do put training in them, they'll absolutely soar.

 

[Ravenbird]

Seeing what kind of dog you have with no training means when you do put training in them, they'll absolutely soar.

Exactly! Testing your dogs temperament by a 3rd party, or even just knowing pretty much what genetic traits you're looking at can help you shape your training to build on what you have and help shape what you don't.

 

[Aaron56]

I'll say it again, since you insist that genetics is meaningless in behavior.




You can train and encourage a shy dog to accept things by building self confidence and exposure to new things in positive manners, Not only is my dog not afraid of new things, she actively seeks out new or strange items in a forward manner.

You see it (how important it really is) pretty clearly when you raise littermates.

They came from the same exact parents but...

Require different levels of training in different areas.

No Guarantees!

 

[BG1]

This thread can morph in any direction readers like, subject to @Ravenbird hosting it
But it may be helpful to keep posts oriented on understanding how both temperament and health matter, in addition to good looks.

I was reminded by @remy post on a UKC certificate that I need to wrap my head around how dog registries evolved and how they differ-

This was useful

AKC vs CKC vs UKC Registries: The Main Differences – Dogster

The American Kennel Club, United Kennel Club and Continental Kennel Club differ in the way they register dogs. We look at the pros and cons of each...

www.dogster.com

Just out of curiousity, what mix of AKC vs UKC are the dogs and owners using here?

In my mind I sense from past threads that DCF is more "working" oriented, vs "another webforum" on showdog dobes...

But I'm only going by impressions...

The "total dog" term from the UKC heritage is closer to the ideal for me, personally, and I've seen the term "functional dog" elsewhere- same ethics; health/longevity, temperament- bred to purpose and training for fulfillment in a job, with "pretty" a good thing but not the first thing...

 

[BG1]

You see it (how important it really is) pretty clearly when you raise littermates.

They came from the same exact parents but...

Require different levels of training in different areas.

No Guarantees!

You see the same in human children..,

 

[JanS]

Just out of curiousity, what mix of AKC vs UKC are the dogs and owners using here?

The dog has to be AKC registered to get it's UKC registration, at least with this breed. All of our Dobermans have been registered in both but I prefer UKC shows myself, even though we're still open to AKC performance events if we have something near that we're interested in.
I know this is going OT but here's another thread explaining reputable registries vs fly by night ones.

Thread 'What is Registration and What Registery is best?'

Dec 16, 2012

Around the world of the purebred dog that is much talk and discussion on registration. It is part of the foundation that makes our Doberman possible.

While AKC registration and pedigree does not guarantee the quality of the dog, certainly a lack of one indicates negligence on the part of the breeder as they did not care enough to even try to get quality to start with.

Starting here in American we have AKC - American Kennel Club that is the only official registry that means anything in America -

1. It is the oldest registry dating back to 1884. It was established as a way for...

• Dobs4ever
• Replies: 128
• Forum: Doberman Talk and Discussions

• 
• 

 

[BG1]

The dog has to be AKC registered to get it's UKC registration, at least with this breed. All of our Dobermans have been registered in both but I prefer UKC shows myself, even though we're still open to AKC performance events if we have something near that we're interested in.
I know this is going OT but here's another thread explaining reputable registries vs fly by night ones.

Thread 'What is Registration and What Registery is best?'

Dec 16, 2012

Around the world of the purebred dog that is much talk and discussion on registration. It is part of the foundation that makes our Doberman possible.

While AKC registration and pedigree does not guarantee the quality of the dog, certainly a lack of one indicates negligence on the part of the breeder as they did not care enough to even try to get quality to start with.

Starting here in American we have AKC - American Kennel Club that is the only official registry that means anything in America -

1. It is the oldest registry dating back to 1884. It was established as a way for...

• Dobs4ever
• Replies: 128
• Forum: Doberman Talk and Discussions

• 
• 

Thanks @JanS
"UDC - United Doberman Club - founded in 1990 when AKC and the DPCA did away with the working dog sports - some DPCA breeders broke away and formed the UDC. They require any dog that participates in their venues to be either AKC, FCI or one of the above approved reg."

Did not know this about DPCA.
I read something awhile back about AKC realizing they goofed up and now trying to do more on working type stuff.

Ok, found it...it was more about UDC educating AKC to return to dobermans roots...(back to the theme of the OP- title and purpose)

https://uniteddobermanclub.com/about-udc/udc-history/

Read up on Ray Carlisle elsewhere here.

So, start with AKC then go to UDC to do their events...get an AWDF scorebook, etc

https://uniteddobermanclub.com/about-udc/programs/register-a-dog/dog-registration-scorebook/

Any UDC breeders currently posting/advertising on DCF?

Any thoughts, knowledge, opinions on the UDC recommended breeder list?

UDC Breeder Directory - United Doberman Club

This directory contains material compiled by the United Doberman Club as a service to Doberman enthusiasts around the world. Information has been provided by UDC members. Although every effort has been made to reproduce the information correctly, we cannot guarantee its accuracy. If you find...

uniteddobermanclub.com

Is that easier to get on than DPCA's?

Breeder Referral List | DPCA

dpca.org

 

[Ravenbird]

The UDC works in collaboration with DPCA in several ways. DPCA is the breed parent club, so all Dobermans are basically under their umbrella no matter what they do.

Working dogs sports - bitey sports - have their own organizations: USCA, AWDF and others? - which follow FCI rules (international rules for the games). American SchH is not FCI, and I don't think PSA is either, but I believe UDC recognizes those titles too, not sure on that. UDC is a breed specific working dog club, striving for the Total Doberman, other breeds have their own national working dog clubs too. So they can hold club trials across the country and also their own Regionals or Nationals. If you have a Doberman you don't have to trail at UDC trials, or even be a member of UDC.

Since I'm in the remote SW, the closest I've ever seen a UDC trial is a 12 hour one-way drive. The 4 - 6 hour drive trials are all USCA. In order to enter those trials you must be a member of USCA. I am a member of UDC and got Ashas scorebook from UDC which sports a AWDF cover but it was accepted by USCA when I trialed with them. It gets incredibly complicated, but to go back to what you said - AKC and DPCA don't have anything to do with bite sports and I hope they never do - few to zero on their boards have a clue about working sports. To get your titles on your official AKC title listings on you papers, you must be a UDC member, who will verify your working sport titles that are approved through DPCA and for $20 (or more by now) each, AKC will officially list it on your dogs name. This info is about 3 or 4 years old, and off my failing memory so some details might not be right, but that's the big picture.

OR, you can just get a score book from AWDF or USCA as a member, go trial, get your titles and who cares if it's on your official AKC name. I list my BH on Ashas titles on my signature here, she earned it but it is not on her AKC listings.

Any thoughts, knowledge, opinions on the UDC recommended breeder list?

As with any breeder list, you must investigate them according to what you are looking for. Many are strictly working dogs, some are more AKC sports and conformation, some lean toward SAR or HRD. Not all the breeders listed do protection sports.

The one thing I see in UDC breeders is that their pedigrees have way more titles in active sports and fewer AKC CH or GCH in front of their names. Many have both, a lot have UDC or UKC conformation CH's. It's a tiny few that have AKC Ch and IGP3, usually because IGP3 takes years to achieve and so does an AKC CH, especially a sport bred dog without the showy-ness of todays conformation champs.

I'll take a minute to do a little brag on Ashas grandsire (dam's sire) - a total Doberman if I ever saw one:

 

[Rits]

DPCA don't have anything to do with bite sports and I hope they never do

The only exception, they do at least acknowledge bite sport titles as a qualifier for the ROM "Register of Merit" which is an award given by the DPCA for any Doberman that has an AKC CH, an approved working title, and passed the WAE (WAC title).

Register of Merit (ROM) Certified Dobermans | DPCA

dpca.org

 

[Ravenbird]

The only exception, they do at least acknowledge bite sport titles as a qualifier

Yes, of course. I meant having a say in the way the rules are run in IGP the way AKC makes rules for their sports. Like AKC doesn't make rules for Barn Hunt but will award titles through BHA. I should have made that more clear, my bad. And thank you for clarifying to anyone reading this thread.

There are so many other ways that the chain has to work through all these groups, but I wanted to make sure that @BG1 understood that AKC isn't involved in IGP except for putting it on your official titles (even if you do have to pay for it , but then only IF UDC/DPCA has given the assurance that yes, they have your scorebook proof that you passed. I cannot show AKC my scorebook and ask them to add BH to Ashas titles, it has to go through the chain. Probably gun dog sports have to go through each breeds parent club to AKC in a similar way. It's complicated, and like one person said to me here - just train & trial and have a good time,

 

[Aaron56]

Always always in a social interaction if in doubt I want her to return on recall, like NOW. That saves things from getting too out of control and besides we are usually doing our own thing together training which she prefers anyway.

Worst thing I ever did was let the one girl keep her squirrel after she dispatched it.

Once she learned that their was meaty goodness under the furskin of the critter she just caught - She was hooked like Hunter Biden on those and much more difficult to control outside afterwards.

Better have a leash and use it if someplace where you think squirrels might be present sort of stuff...

 

[BG1]

Worst thing I ever did was let the one girl keep her squirrel after she dispatched it.

Once she learned that their was meaty goodness under the furskin of the critter she just caught - She was hooked like Hunter Biden on those and much more difficult to control outside afterwards.

Better have a leash and use it if someplace where you think squirrels might be present sort of stuff...

Yep, we are on it. I take her off leash hiking a lot and NEVER allow her to pursue/catch small game/birds...simply because I dont want to have to untrain that later. Plus disease.
And because coyotes.
I do take her along a beach walkway thats full of tame squirrels that come up almost to a foit to sniff, but only allow Bonnie to look, not lunge.

Daughter has an ancient pet bunny that has the run of backyard and so we carefully trained Bonnie to look-sniff-but-no-touch.
She's become the bunnys watchdog too...

 

[BG1]

Here is a youtube from a trainer that popped up as I was rewatching that dpca breed history and judging video thanks @MikeP

(Note- i have no idea how good, or credible this source is, not recommending etc -
just makes some good commonsense points from working and protection training)

Along the lines of the OP based on "OPEN LETTER"by the 25 yrs experienced trainer as posted by @Ravenbird

 

[BG1]

The dog has to be AKC registered to get it's UKC registration, at least with this breed. All of our Dobermans have been registered in both but I prefer UKC shows myself, even though we're still open to AKC performance events if we have something near that we're interested in.
I know this is going OT but here's another thread explaining reputable registries vs fly by night ones.

Thread 'What is Registration and What Registery is best?'

Dec 16, 2012

Around the world of the purebred dog that is much talk and discussion on registration. It is part of the foundation that makes our Doberman possible.

While AKC registration and pedigree does not guarantee the quality of the dog, certainly a lack of one indicates negligence on the part of the breeder as they did not care enough to even try to get quality to start with.

Starting here in American we have AKC - American Kennel Club that is the only official registry that means anything in America -

1. It is the oldest registry dating back to 1884. It was established as a way for...

• Dobs4ever
• Replies: 128
• Forum: Doberman Talk and Discussions

• 
• 

Thats a great thread too!
That goes to show the concern and conversation about temperament and drive diverging in show lines goes way back. Another reason DCF is so valuable;

the deep wisdom archived here for the new reader to search thru...

 

[BG1]

The UDC works in collaboration with DPCA in several ways. DPCA is the breed parent club, so all Dobermans are basically under their umbrella no matter what they do.

Working dogs sports - bitey sports - have their own organizations: USCA, AWDF and others? - which follow FCI rules (international rules for the games). American SchH is not FCI, and I don't think PSA is either, but I believe UDC recognizes those titles too, not sure on that. UDC is a breed specific working dog club, striving for the Total Doberman, other breeds have their own national working dog clubs too. So they can hold club trials across the country and also their own Regionals or Nationals. If you have a Doberman you don't have to trail at UDC trials, or even be a member of UDC.

Since I'm in the remote SW, the closest I've ever seen a UDC trial is a 12 hour one-way drive. The 4 - 6 hour drive trials are all USCA. In order to enter those trials you must be a member of USCA. I am a member of UDC and got Ashas scorebook from UDC which sports a AWDF cover but it was accepted by USCA when I trialed with them. It gets incredibly complicated, but to go back to what you said - AKC and DPCA don't have anything to do with bite sports and I hope they never do - few to zero on their boards have a clue about working sports. To get your titles on your official AKC title listings on you papers, you must be a UDC member, who will verify your working sport titles that are approved through DPCA and for $20 (or more by now) each, AKC will officially list it on your dogs name. This info is about 3 or 4 years old, and off my failing memory so some details might not be right, but that's the big picture.

OR, you can just get a score book from AWDF or USCA as a member, go trial, get your titles and who cares if it's on your official AKC name. I list my BH on Ashas titles on my signature here, she earned it but it is not on her AKC listings.


As with any breeder list, you must investigate them according to what you are looking for. Many are strictly working dogs, some are more AKC sports and conformation, some lean toward SAR or HRD. Not all the breeders listed do protection sports.

The one thing I see in UDC breeders is that their pedigrees have way more titles in active sports and fewer AKC CH or GCH in front of their names. Many have both, a lot have UDC or UKC conformation CH's. It's a tiny few that have AKC Ch and IGP3, usually because IGP3 takes years to achieve and so does an AKC CH, especially a sport bred dog without the showy-ness of todays conformation champs.

I'll take a minute to do a little brag on Ashas grandsire (dam's sire) - a total Doberman if I ever saw one:

View attachment 156786View attachment 156787

Thanks @Ravenbird
Once one starts reading pedigrees with some idea of the initials desired as proof of temperament and the drive to work,

Then its easier to see how that shows up in the lines.

 

[Two Dobes]

Thanks @BG1 for posting the Shield K9 video....I like that guy, and have watched many of his doberman videos in the past. Had not seen this one....appreciate it! He makes great points.

 

[Ravenbird]

Here is a youtube from a trainer that popped up

Haven't watched it yet, but I have generally liked what Shield K9 has to say. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Aaron56]

You see the same in human children..,

It's not just behavior here. The health differences between siblings can be very, very noticeable as well.

My last pair of girls had all sorts of health crap that neither of the parents ever came down with.

Allergies in one girl is my most recent example here.

How is it that one particular girl out of the pair of littermates has allergy issues for a few months each year when her sister never, EVER, had a single allergy issue with anything? And neither of the parents ever had any issues allergy related???

 

[Ravenbird]

youtube from a trainer

For the most part, I agree with his assessment of Dobermans. I might have to go back and re-watch or read the transcript, but there were a couple of things I *think* I heard him say that I wanted to comment on. I've been too busy lately and don't want to comment without clarifying first if I heard him right...