5 Week Old Pup Looks a Bit Timid – Indicative, or Too Young to Tell Anything?

[Oh Little Oji]

Hi all,

I have been in contact with a breeder. The litter is 5 weeks old yesterday. In the few videos I've seen so far, the pup that I prefer (of the 2 available male pups) seems timid in its body language and actions – not all that bad, but somewhat.

Is this too soon to judge anything?

Videos of the two pups individually appear below.

The other available pup does not exhibit this timid looking behavior, but it did show a worrying trait in that it was going to the fence lines and looking to escape under it!'

These are pups that are 3/4 made up of a few livestock guardian breeds, and 1/4 of an established mastiff hybrid made up of several breeds all of which were chosen for gameness. The dogs from that well-established hybrid mastiff breeder are known to be quite drivey and a handful. This breed makeup of the pups may sound confusing, but I'm just asking about basic puppy behavior and signs and signals we can pick up on to predict the future of the dog.

Given the type of dog this is, it explains to you that the pups were born outdoors and have been raised outdoors thus far, but have started to receive human interaction and will get more and more starting soon. So, the videos have been shot of the pups having emerged from their sort of manmade "den" and exploring their little area outside the den. It follows, in my mind, that they would generally be timid and unsure of their surroundings outside the den.

I am no puppy expert – at least not with pups this young.

So, why do I ask this question about 5 week old pups when I can just wait longer and see how they are in the coming weeks? Well, I have a decision to make as to which pup I want. I have the pick of the two at this point; but as soon as the two pups are old enough to be evaluated on which one is better suited to guard birds (like chickens and such, I assume) the better of the two in that regard has been promised to someone. If I can pick one of them prior to one being promised to the other guy, I have the choice of the two. So, the breeder seems to be extending this courtesy to me, perhaps because I have been in touch with him for the better part of a year.

In another video, I observed the lighter colored dog acting pretty confident and even dominant with its body carriage, and I saw the darker colored pup exhibit what looked like shyness or fear. Again, a pup being unsure in this situation as described above would be understandable. I just wonder (and the breeder said sort of as much), if the lighter pup will be sort of a real force of nature.

So yeah. If a pup acts timid at 5 weeks, could it be appreciably indicative of how it will be later? Or, is behavior at 5 weeks not very indicative of anything?

 

[LifeofRubie]

There is an account on IG that might be interesting to you: raventreeranch. They have several types of livestock guardian dogs! It's cool seeing how the mature dogs 'train' the puppies. Everything from don't hassle the livestock to how to respond to threats. Judge is their newest addition and is still learning (as in, it might take a bit of scrolling to get to his introduction but not an obnoxious amount!).

looking at his first video's, he's often shown doing a lot of observing but also cautiously inspecting while 'reading the room.' As he gets older, you can see he's more confident but always respectful.

 

[EricA]

Asked a long time Doberman breeder what he thought about the behavior of some pups about that age that I was looking at.

He looked at me and said 'They all act like puppies'.

I was embarrassed to have asked after that. Impossible to tell anything at that age.

I would go so far as to suggest that even at 20 weeks the particular 'behaviors' you see from a puppy may not be at all what you see in the adult dog. It all depends.

 

[DracoDobie]

There is an account on IG that might be interesting to you: raventreeranch. They have several types of livestock guardian dogs! It's cool seeing how the mature dogs 'train' the puppies. Everything from don't hassle the livestock to how to respond to threats. Judge is their newest addition and is still learning (as in, it might take a bit of scrolling to get to his introduction but not an obnoxious amount!).

looking at his first video's, he's often shown doing a lot of observing but also cautiously inspecting while 'reading the room.' As he gets older, you can see he's more confident but always respectful.

I love raventreeranch too! I suggest you take a look at her instagram and tiktok, she's got 3 anatolian sheperds, and all 3 of them are super balanced. I don't have much experience with livestock guardian breeds, but they are used A LOT here in Spain by pretty much everyone that has a yard. I'd say wait a bit longer, and don't worry too much as puppies are exactly that, puppies , their personalities will change as more time passes by, but it really depends.

 

[EricA]

So, why do I ask this question about 5 week old pups when I can just wait longer and see how they are in the coming weeks? Well, I have a decision to make as to which pup I want. I have the pick of the two at this point; but as soon as the two pups are old enough to be evaluated on which one is better suited to guard birds (like chickens and such, I assume) the better of the two in that regard has been promised to someone. If I can pick one of them prior to one being promised to the other guy, I have the choice of the two. So, the breeder seems to be extending this courtesy to me, perhaps because I have been in touch with him for the better part of a year.

In another video, I observed the lighter colored dog acting pretty confident and even dominant with its body carriage, and I saw the darker colored pup exhibit what looked like shyness or fear. Again, a pup being unsure in this situation as described above would be understandable. I just wonder (and the breeder said sort of as much), if the lighter pup will be sort of a real force of nature.

So yeah. If a pup acts timid at 5 weeks, could it be appreciably indicative of how it will be later? Or, is behavior at 5 weeks not very indicative of anything?

Have more time now and wanted to expand on my previous comments with some personal examples -

Prior to bringing home my current girls I had raised 5 different Dobermans from puppies to the end. Granted that is not the same level of experience as someone that has been around them for 50 years but I think it is enough experience to have at least a little bit of a clue as to what to expect.

1) So one night when the current girls were still very young (pretty sure they were around 2 or 3 mos of age) I was taking them out for a middle of the night pee break and as soon as they stepped out into the back yard and the motion light turned on I could see a pair of eyeballs (very low to the ground) back there reflecting the light. Would be willing to bet it was a baby rabbit. My Dober pups saw those eyeballs reflecting as well and stopped dead in their tracks watching them. Guessing the baby rabbit decided to not stick around and I saw the eyeballs more or less dart off to the side and in a direction AWAY from us.

When those rabbit eyes moved like they did (keep in mind they were moving AWAY from us) the Dober pups both yelped like they just got stepped on and literally pissed themselves as they were trying to get back inside the house as fast as they could.

Have NEVER seen a Doberman puppy behave that fearfully before over some crap like that. Blew my mind.

2) Fast forward to about 6 to 7 mos of age - Had the Dober girls at work with me and they were doing their thing and just hanging out near the gate by the rear loading dock. Door was open so they could see out of the shop / get some sunshine but the gate was closed so they could not actually get outside. The trash truck pulls into the rear of the lot to empty our dumpster and girls were both just calmly watching it until the truck actually had the dumpster up in the air dumping it out and starting banging it to make sure it was all the way emptied out. As soon as the dumpster banging started BOTH of the girls flipped the hell out. Looked like something out of a cartoon where the legs were going 90MPH trying to run BACKWARDS but they could not get any traction because they were trying so hard so their bodies were barely moving. All of that as they were pissing themselves.

Yes that was a big dumpster and yes the banging was a little loud but still - Have never seen a Doberman that fearful of loud / strange noises before.

At this point, Considering those particular behavior examples and having never personally seen a Doberman puppy behave anything like these girls - I was starting to think these particular dogs were seriously defective somehow and that I got ripped off. No need to look at their paperwork because I already knew the 'warranty' had long since expired on them.

I was pretty bummed out about it till a little later in the day when I looked up and saw one do something goofy. Can't remember exactly what it was at the time but they did lots of goofy stuff and I do recall having a darn good laugh before becoming resolved to stop stressing and just be happy that I had them around.

They did eventually start to grow out of all the shy behavior and gain confidence.

Anything I saw that they were having a problem with we did more of (not less).

A trainer lady I very much respect asked me one time if the girls I had could do stairs and asked if they had ever been up or down any. Sadly, I had to admit that neither girl had ever seen any sort of staircase before and I had no idea. Sooo, we went and tried it out a few times to see what would happen.

Gradual rise and carpeted was no problem. Steep and slippery was an 'adventure' getting down.

We stopped by that Sportsmans Warehouse store with those slippery and steep steps at least once a week and went up and down them a pile of times until they mastered them. (and then went and found others to work on)

Fairly recent picture of Patience sunning herself at work -

Hard to see in the picture but if you look close you can spot the train going by in the background. 4 sets of tracks with a good bit of strange and sometimes loud noises and that Doberman gives not a crap about it.

Same thing with respect to 'chickens and such'.

If you spend the time you can teach your Doberman how to behave around them.

 

[Kswoodssue]

I would want to see them interacting with their litter mates after they are weaned. I think they just wanted their mama.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Have more time now and wanted to expand on my previous comments with some personal examples -

Prior to bringing home my current girls I had raised 5 different Dobermans from puppies to the end. Granted that is not the same level of experience as someone that has been around them for 50 years but I think it is enough experience to have at least a little bit of a clue as to what to expect.

1) So one night when the current girls were still very young (pretty sure they were around 2 or 3 mos of age) I was taking them out for a middle of the night pee break and as soon as they stepped out into the back yard and the motion light turned on I could see a pair of eyeballs (very low to the ground) back there reflecting the light. Would be willing to bet it was a baby rabbit. My Dober pups saw those eyeballs reflecting as well and stopped dead in their tracks watching them. Guessing the baby rabbit decided to not stick around and I saw the eyeballs more or less dart off to the side and in a direction AWAY from us.

When those rabbit eyes moved like they did (keep in mind they were moving AWAY from us) the Dober pups both yelped like they just got stepped on and literally pissed themselves as they were trying to get back inside the house as fast as they could.

Have NEVER seen a Doberman puppy behave that fearfully before over some crap like that. Blew my mind.

2) Fast forward to about 6 to 7 mos of age - Had the Dober girls at work with me and they were doing their thing and just hanging out near the gate by the rear loading dock. Door was open so they could see out of the shop / get some sunshine but the gate was closed so they could not actually get outside. The trash truck pulls into the rear of the lot to empty our dumpster and girls were both just calmly watching it until the truck actually had the dumpster up in the air dumping it out and starting banging it to make sure it was all the way emptied out. As soon as the dumpster banging started BOTH of the girls flipped the hell out. Looked like something out of a cartoon where the legs were going 90MPH trying to run BACKWARDS but they could not get any traction because they were trying so hard so their bodies were barely moving. All of that as they were pissing themselves.

Yes that was a big dumpster and yes the banging was a little loud but still - Have never seen a Doberman that fearful of loud / strange noises before.

At this point, Considering those particular behavior examples and having never personally seen a Doberman puppy behave anything like these girls - I was starting to think these particular dogs were seriously defective somehow and that I got ripped off. No need to look at their paperwork because I already knew the 'warranty' had long since expired on them.

I was pretty bummed out about it till a little later in the day when I looked up and saw one do something goofy. Can't remember exactly what it was at the time but they did lots of goofy stuff and I do recall having a darn good laugh before becoming resolved to stop stressing and just be happy that I had them around.

They did eventually start to grow out of all the shy behavior and gain confidence.

Anything I saw that they were having a problem with we did more of (not less).

A trainer lady I very much respect asked me one time if the girls I had could do stairs and asked if they had ever been up or down any. Sadly, I had to admit that neither girl had ever seen any sort of staircase before and I had no idea. Sooo, we went and tried it out a few times to see what would happen.

Gradual rise and carpeted was no problem. Steep and slippery was an 'adventure' getting down.

We stopped by that Sportsmans Warehouse store with those slippery and steep steps at least once a week and went up and down them a pile of times until they mastered them. (and then went and found others to work on)

Fairly recent picture of Patience sunning herself at work -

Hard to see in the picture but if you look close you can spot the train going by in the background. 4 sets of tracks with a good bit of strange and sometimes loud noises and that Doberman gives not a crap about it.

Same thing with respect to 'chickens and such'.

If you spend the time you can teach your Doberman how to behave around them.

That is a great reply, and I enjoyed it! Thanks!

 

[Rits]

How are the temperaments of the parents? 5 weeks you do start seeing quite a bit of innate ability and personality. I know you aren't showing this puppy but just from my experience learning from breeders is that from 5-8 weeks is when to watch for temperament as looking at conformation shouldn't be done until 8 and 12 weeks. The ones that are more forward and confident at 5-8 weeks are the ones that will handle the stresses of the show environment easily and are usually bold and cocky, they show themselves! It doesn't mean some of the others that may be middle of the road couldn't be that level with early socialization and desensitizing.

There is a lady that breeds and trains bomb detection dogs (working labs) near me. She has a whole program and she makes notes as soon as she starts puppy culture at 1 week old. The more serious decisions happen around 5-8 weeks. She introduces them to novel things and watches how each one reacts. The whole gamut gets thrown at them. Sure the slightly reserved puppy could be trained to overcome these things with time but these are bomb detection dogs and they are going to run into things they've never seen before, they have to be confident from the start and focused on their job. Just be warned, with confidence you typically get a "harder" dog which usually equals hard to live with in a family setting. Middle of the road is nice for most seeking to do performance work and that is what she does with her bomb detection "wash outs". They get homed to those interested in doing scent work, obedience, agility etc. Others become service dogs and the others, pets. There usually is only 1-2 at most in the litter that are suited for that high level.

 

[Doberman Gang]

I have done evaluations on working litters usually first is at 5 weeks, then 7, 9 and then at 12 weeks before pups go to their new homes. How much puppies changes in this time is incredible, what you see at 5 weeks can vary greatly in behavior in each two week evaluation. If those are the two you are choosing between I would just watch them both over the next few weeks to see how they progress. Do they use outside stimuli to test puppies courage and inquisitiveness? I look for pups that try to investigate strange and sometimes loud noises hidden and from a distance.

 

[Ravenbird]

@Oh Little Oji - it's too bad you feel pressured to try to pick the right pup for you before the right pick for the flock guardian is made, leaving you with whichever is left. As stated above, so much can and will change in the space of a few weeks! It's a tough call. And there's always the thought that the best pup for guarding a flock may not be the ideal one for a house dog/family dog/protection dog for you. You may both get what you're looking for!

 

[Oh Little Oji]

@Oh Little Oji - it's too bad you feel pressured to try to pick the right pup for you before the right pick for the flock guardian is made, leaving you with whichever is left. As stated above, so much can and will change in the space of a few weeks! It's a tough call. And there's always the thought that the best pup for guarding a flock may not be the ideal one for a house dog/family dog/protection dog for you. You may both get what you're looking for!

There were 4 in the litter. One is female. One is reserved. Of the 2 remaining, one was verbally reserved, but the breeder is allowing me to pick one while the other buyer waits for the evaluation of the two for bird guarding. So, I have the pick even if I wind up with the one that is the better bird guarder. That seems like a nice courtesy extended to me; but yes, it does place pressure on me to pick sooner than later. If not, then my pick will be decided by the breeder.

The breeder sees signs that the other one might be the better one for the birds, and that the one I like the look of (darker, no white on the dog) is more people-oriented. But yes, my better looking dog seems less confident. I have the feeling, given the genetics of these dogs, that they will all be confident and capable. The pup is 1/2 Turkish Kangal. It seems to me that is a breed that will tend to be confident and hard enough. The other makeup of the pup is 1/4 Midgard Mastiff ( I have mentioned this breeder before in this thread – drivey, capable mastiff mixes) and 1/4 Anatolian Shepherd Dog x Great Pyrenees.

Yes, I might get what I'm looking for. Good thought!

 

[JanS]

Most of the dogs in that mixture naturally want to guard livestock and it might be tough to give the pup that exposure unless you have access to a farm somewhere to work them.

My friend has Anatolians and there were some Kangles in our show last summer too. They really look alike, IMO.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Most of the dogs in that mixture naturally want to guard livestock and it might be tough to give the pup that exposure unless you have access to a farm somewhere to work them.

My friend has Anatolians and there were some Kangles in our show last summer too. They really look alike, IMO.

Yeah, I hear ya'. I'm thinking hard on it.

 

[Ravenbird]

There were 4 in the litter. One is female. One is reserved.

So was one picked out before 5 weeks by breeder or buyer? The thing about mixed breeds is that any traits from the different breeds can show up in temperament that don't match any of the other litter mates. I don't think you could nail it easily until 8 - 10 weeks, preferably 12 weeks. Just my opinion and depends on how scattered the breeds are in the pedigree. Since you were asking just for the moment at hand of the videos at 5 weeks, I'd have to say I couldn't make a decision from that.

 

[Katyusharocket]

I can contribute my feelings which are far from facts: at 5 weeks surrounded by littermates isn't even close to the pup you will bring home at 8 or 10 weeks. From watching Katyusha with her siblings, changes happen very quickly in this range. My girl went from subtle to turbo-dog in the time between 5 and 8 weeks. The minute she came home she was challenging my 90 pound Bernese. 3 weeks earlier, she wasn't challenging any of her siblings. If you like the pup on your initial meeting, keep it. You're an intuitive dog owner and you guys will work it out.