Managing the defensive Doberman in modern times

[Doberman Gang]

More questions & comments - any feedback welcome.


Question: what is your guarding command? If I tie Asha back, and bring up the bite pillow she begins barking right away. So is there a command that is still needed or to confirm the action? I've never said anything to make her do it, just show the bite pillow and don't let her have it.

A day or two ago I had a thought in the middle of the night about this "capping the 10 exercise" and the book I mentioned to @Cferg Der Schutzhund and the mindset of the dog in different drives. When Asha goes off it is always in defense of what she has decided or knows is her space. The tie-back exercise is all in prey drive. But I thought I'll just see if I can get her up to a 10 and cap her, never mind about prey or defense. So tried it out today. She obeyed to near perfection. I will video it next time, but seriously hot & bothered, barking like crazy, hitting the end of the rope, I say Platz and down she goes. And stops barking. I rewarded with the pillow, played & tugged, then outed and withheld the prize, built her up, she downed on first command. I could go to basic had her sit while I pulled the pillow towards us with the line it was on, got it within reach, released her and everything was perfectly on command. E-collar was on, but I never had to use it.

I did the tie-back exercise today because yesterday another embarrassing moment. I'd gone to look at the creek that runs across our driveway as we've gotten some impressive rain. I took Asha out the gate to go with me, she had no collar on at all. I wasn't expecting to see anyone and "was just going to take a picture of the creek and come right back". LOL. But the neighbors who live down the road came by on their 4 wheeler, on the other side of the creek and stopped to say hi. Asha started barking and I told her quiet & down, but as the wife got out of the 4 wheeler (husband stayed in his seat) Asha just barreled across the rushing creek barking like nobody's business got up to about 3 - 4 feet of her barking at her & then turned and came back to me. I grabbed the scruff of her neck and was apologizing to them for Asha's rude behavior, but then the wife is going on shouting over the noise of the creek, about the weather and the flooding and waving her arms in gesture and Asha tears loose from my hold on her neck and goes over AGAIN, barks at her and turns and comes back. OMG. I took her up the driveway and had her Platz and stay, which she did. But holy hell. Totally not listening. So many mistakes on my part, I can correct those things. I never thought she'd go across the creek, it's usually just a couple feet wide and less than 5" deep, or completely dry. Now it was 12 feet wide, about 2 feet deep and rushing pretty fast. Asha did a one bounce to the middle and another to the other side, then back again twice. One of the times she almost made it completely across. At least I know she could do a long jump. Hahaha.

I took this video about 5 minutes before the neighbors showed up. Not hard for Asha to bounce in & out, but a small dog would have gotten swept downstream. Sound up for how much noise we had to shout over.

Here's a visual of "our side" and the road across where the neighbors stopped.
View attachment 128111


Long post again, I know. My lesson learned, I cannot let her be off leash without an e-collar. The neighbor was chill. She just stood there. But it's totally frustrating that she goes into this defense with no real threat and has zero response to me. It's why I did the tie-back and agitating homework today and then sure enough, all was perfect.

Is it because prey drive is all fun type frustration with no danger? And defense of space is so serious to her brain that she shuts me out? I will try the tie-back without the e-collar on to see if she still respects the commands like she did today. I could possibly drum up a volunteer to approach her to get her into this defense mode, but what to do about correction. If the e-collar is on she will not get out of control due collar-smart. She may get growly or bark once but if she has the collar on she'll lay flat down like a carpet knowing a stim may come. She won't take off like she did yesterday and bark right at them. If I set it up with no collar on, how to correct? I use to worry about capping this hard because I didn't want to squash the behavior entirely. Now I honestly don't think I have to worry about that.

Yea, lots to cover with what you wrote. For me, Blaze always wears an ecollar when we are out in public period. Take no chances, if he decides to be an ass, things are going to get hot.

If you bring a stranger into help, one that is just a pacer by or a non threat neighbor that might be waving at you. I will light my dog up if it doesn’t cap when I give him a command. No second chances, capping command followed immediately with electric. Your dog will learn to respond quickly to your commands. Until your dog can tell the difference between a threat and a non-threat that would be the only thing I would work on with her. She has no reason to react on a stranger if that stranger is friendly or minding their own business.
We teach guarding to a bad guy that is no threatening but hiding. The barking is to alert the have found the bad guy. If the bad guy threatens Defense) or try’s to escape (prey) the dog can attack. Once the handler comes around the dog must be able to be called out of the guard and return to basic position. ( heel position). This is capping and show control. The dog wants to bite for sure, especially dogs tge love to fight in defense. So we start by calling them off from a down position next the the find blind. This is a lower state of drive vs. guarding. When the dog comes back the heel the helper will slowly approach and give a reward bite for the dog being correct in obedience. No bark is allowed it must be capped.

 

[Doberman Gang]

Here is sone short. Ideas I put together. The call out from the side. Notice in heel my hand is outside his head. When I move my hand inside his focus now goes back to the bad guy.

 

[Ravenbird]

f you bring a stranger into help, one that is just a pacer by or a non threat neighbor that might be waving at you. I will light my dog up if it doesn’t cap when I give him a command. No second chances, capping command followed immediately with electric. Your dog will learn to respond quickly to your commands.

So this has basically been done for the last couple of years. I've trained w/e-collar in many situations and capped the instant she goes into this mode and she easily is contained. Before the BH I started working without the e-collar to proof her around other people & dogs. She's really good in a group or place that she knows until a new person approaches the group, like a late-comer to the class. Trigger seems to always be an outsider coming in or a sudden appearance (like the judge at the door). In a heavy crowd she is very good, unless she locks eyes with someone looking at her. When I was proofing w/out E or prong collar and she went off I would pull her off her front feet with the fur saver & do a face to face with her. It almost worked better than the E collar - I think because the E is not very personal, but the "look", forcing her to look at my eyes giving her a hard stare & a firm NO, was more of a come-to-Jesus than the E ever was. I used that for the couple of months before the BH, letting her know that the unprovoked barking was not acceptable.

Until your dog can tell the difference between a threat and a non-threat that would be the only thing I would work on with her. She has no reason to react on a stranger if that stranger is friendly or minding their own business.

I totally agree. I pretty much have resigned to accepting that she is truly reactive and doesn't think or care about the consequences until a couple of seconds after she explodes. If she has a prong or e-collar on, she will immediately flatten out on the ground knowing a reprimand is coming before I finish saying no. She's a shoot first/ask questions later dog and cannot seem to learn or care that a threat & a non-threat are two different things. I remember posting here about one of her first trips to Tractor Supply, totally ok until she wasn't, barking at one particular person pretty furiously, at 4 months old. Then at Star Puppy class, setting off on several people who walked by our class and I'd hold her muzzle shut with both hands while she was barking through my fingers. Much to the horror of the positive trainer there who wanted me to "wait it out". Um, nope. I kept thinking it would get better with age and training and it actually has, until something happens and I can't correct instantly or effectively.

We teach guarding to a bad guy that is no threatening but hiding. The barking is to alert the have found the bad guy. If the bad guy threatens Defense) or try’s to escape (prey) the dog can attack. Once the handler comes around the dog must be able to be called out of the guard and return to basic position. ( heel position). This is capping and show control. The dog wants to bite for sure, especially dogs tge love to fight in defense. So we start by calling them off from a down position next the the find blind. This is a lower state of drive vs. guarding. When the dog comes back the heel the helper will slowly approach and give a reward bite for the dog being correct in obedience. No bark is allowed it must be capped.

^^^^ All this is why I was telling @Cferg that these working dogs are probably waayy better off learning IGP or bite sports or something with high discipline that makes them realize they must have some self-control. I think the self-control and obedience they are put through is key and as you've said, working them up to a 10 and capping, not just a little bit but throughout training, day in and day out for years. I feel like Asha would be so much better off if I had a club to work with locally and regularly.

I will keep working on this, and be sure to add capping to all of our high drive training. I'm starting to teach the send out, so have been Platzing randomly at distance and to run out to get a ball at full speed. It's kind of messy right now, but she's learning that Platz at a distance is a thing. She's amazingly good at so many things except this one problem...

Thanks for all your input, it's really appreciated!

 

[Ravenbird]

Here is sone short. Ideas I put together. The call out from the side. Notice in heel my hand is outside his head. When I move my hand inside his focus now goes back to the bad guy.

Great video on control. Haha, I don't have that kind of a heel, but I get the idea. I need your indoor training ring with mats and mirrors and blinds and decoy.

 

[Ravenbird]

This video is less than 3 minutes and is showing heeling and down with the bite pillow for distraction. It's pretty messy, but she does comply for the most part. Any input is welcome. The first 3 seconds are priceless. I'd put the pillow down about 3 feet from Asha and went to turn on the camera. While my back was turned she tried to snatch it but I saw her and she saw/heard me say "nah-ah-ah"and self-corrected.

I'll have to crop or get shorter videos of the tie-back work. They are too long to load on youtube on my slow internet right now. She def barked more while being told to fuss or down without the e-collar on. She is also jumping to grab the bite pillow without "permission". The main reason I don't work with the agitation much is because I don't know what I'm doing and don't want to create bad habits. Asha always has a blast no matter what I do wrong.

 

[Doberman Gang]

This video is less than 3 minutes and is showing heeling and down with the bite pillow for distraction. It's pretty messy, but she does comply for the most part. Any input is welcome. The first 3 seconds are priceless. I'd put the pillow down about 3 feet from Asha and went to turn on the camera. While my back was turned she tried to snatch it but I saw her and she saw/heard me say "nah-ah-ah"and self-corrected.

I'll have to crop or get shorter videos of the tie-back work. They are too long to load on youtube on my slow internet right now. She def barked more while being told to fuss or down without the e-collar on. She is also jumping to grab the bite pillow without "permission". The main reason I don't work with the agitation much is because I don't know what I'm doing and don't want to create bad habits. Asha always has a blast no matter what I do wrong.

You guys look really good, nice heeling, she shows great understanding of the rules but she likes to push you a little.
For me, when I reward my dog, the toy/tug ect… is never thrown in front. I never want my dog to think it can pass me when we are in heel.
Leave her in a sit or down, then turn to face her to reward. If I want to reward heeling in motion, I either just drop the toy straight down, reward straight up, throw the toy backwards or if toy is in my right hand the dog must go behind me to get the toy. All of these will help if the dog starts forging as well.
The little jabs at the toy when it is on the ground is an easy fix. I will put my dog in a down (since this is his most stable position as well) lay the tug/wedge/sleeve on or in front of his front feet. If he try’s to take a bite I make the item out using the ecollar. I don’t say anything, once I can lay it there and he leaves it alone. I will pick it up and mark it is safe now (Yes, OK or clicker) if I don’t give him a reward command he had better not touch it. That will fix that, it also helped me from getting bitbor attacked when he was younger

 

[Ravenbird]

she shows great understanding of the rules but she likes to push you a little

... a little nope, a LOT. But yes, the most frustrating thing is knowing that she KNOWS, but does it anyway, funny sometimes, but like running at people, not so much.

when I reward my dog, the toy/tug ect… is never thrown in front. I never want my dog to think it can pass me when we are in heel.
Leave her in a sit or down, then turn to face her to reward. If I want to reward heeling in motion, I either just drop the toy straight down, reward straight up, throw the toy backwards or if toy is in my right hand the dog must go behind me to get the toy. All of these will help if the dog starts forging as well.

Most excellent advice. I try to do that with a ball in heeling, but totally forgot about it here. Wasn't so much working on heeling as showing control while in high arousal. She doesn't heel this sharply if I only have food or nothing at all. She forges ahead, it's a constant battle. The other day I was heeling along the fence to try to squeeze her into being straight, she did a perfect about turn so I tossed the ball behind us to reward and it went over the damn fence. That's me alright.

Thanks for the extra tips, we are always a work in progress.

 

[Two Dobes]

Here’s a video of her recently in the pool by herself. She can get pretty hot and bothered and I have to keep her engaged or playing fetch if the kids are in there.

Fetch in the pool

Here’s one of us in the mountains playing one of her favorites. I put her in a down stay then I run 75-100 yards up the road I then release her. Rinse and repeat for a half to three quarters of a mile. It’s great excercise for both of us. And really checks all the boxes for excercise, obedience-impulse control and mental stimulation. And she straight loves it!

And one of her just staying under threshold. As you can hear my daughters voice sounds like a dying rabbit.

LOVE your videos....she clearly did not care for the pool vacuum moving about in "her" water! Very cool to watch...thanks for sharing!!!

 

[Cferg]

Sorry for not posting in the thread guys. It’s my busy season this time of year at work.

Anyways, I finally got an appointment for me and Stassi to go see Joel Monroe. I’ve yet to talk anybody on the phone. And it took about 6 emails and texts back and forth to get a private session booked. But I got it done.
We haven’t been training much, as I’ve been busy harvesting. But I’m going to wrap up in a few days. So I should have a couple of weeks to get the obedience really tight before we go.
Question for you guys that train and trial. Do you crate more than normal, days leading up to training and trialing? To help with engagement. I’ve noticed through normal life events that go on. If I go a couple of days with Stassi crated most of the time (like 80-90% of the day). Her focus is lasered on me when out of the crate and doing things.

 

[Ravenbird]

I don't do anything different, I don't ever crate at home unless I need the dog completely out of my way while I do something, usually to do with work. But this might amount to 1 - 2 hours once or twice a week. However, if I go a day or two with no training she really starts pushing me to train: Do Something With Me! I think many IGP trainers crate or at least crate & rotate, simply because some of these dogs can drive you bonkers with their energy. I'm doubtful they do it just to see training enhancement, but I could be wrong. One thing for sure is, and I think @Doberman Gang has said it repeatedly, is that you must be the most fun your dog has. Always. Dogs that run around the house all day find other things to have fun with, being in a crate insures that you are the only fun thing, so there's that.

I look forward to hearing about your training with Joel Monroe - I've heard nothing but good things about him.

 

[Cferg]

I don't do anything different, I don't ever crate at home unless I need the dog completely out of my way while I do something, usually to do with work. But this might amount to 1 - 2 hours once or twice a week. However, if I go a day or two with no training she really starts pushing me to train: Do Something With Me! I think many IGP trainers crate or at least crate & rotate, simply because some of these dogs can drive you bonkers with their energy. I'm doubtful they do it just to see training enhancement, but I could be wrong. One thing for sure is, and I think @Doberman Gang has said it repeatedly, is that you must be the most fun your dog has. Always. Dogs that run around the house all day find other things to have fun with, being in a crate insures that you are the only fun thing, so there's that.

I look forward to hearing about your training with Joel Monroe - I've heard nothing but good things about him.

Stassi was either crated or directly engaging with me for her first year. In the evening I would have her on leash if I was relaxing(if she could settle). Other than that she was crated unless we were training or some engaging excercise. All good things come from me.
And with Joel,I’m not sure if Stassi will actually work. I think she has too much bite inhibition.
Another question I’ve been meaning to ask. Will any of your dogs tug with you if they are defensively stimulated? Stassi redirects prey frustration beautifully into the tug. But could give a crap about the tug if it’s defensive. Has zero interest in it. She looks at me like why are you shoving this tug in my face? I want to light someone up!!

 

[Ravenbird]

And with Joel,I’m not sure if Stassi will actually work. I think she has too much bite inhibition.

Why do you think that?

But could give a crap about the tug if it’s defensive. Has zero interest in it. She looks at me like why are you shoving this tug in my face?

What is she being defensive about?

This is why you have to train in prey drive. A defensive dog is wanting to make something/someone get out of their space, they aren't looking for a fight, they're looking to literally get that being out of their space. If it doesn't retreat and they feel the threat is real or if they feel cornered or that they have no choice, then they will defend with a fight. It's extremely high stress and dogs that stay in defense drive aren't having a lot of fun. Train in prey to keep it fun, add pressure little by little. When you add pressure make sure they always win.

Another question I’ve been meaning to ask. Will any of your dogs tug with you if they are defensively stimulated?

And the answer to that is no. Page 2 of Ashas IGP Adventures in the Schutzhund threads - sorry, I can't recall how to link it here. She was having a great time and the helper decided to put some pressure on by staring, which just happens to be her biggest trigger in daily life, and she totally quit the game and just barked at him. He tried to feed her the tug and she literally turned her face away, then went back to barking. It was like "I'm not playing games with you after that stink-eye you just gave me". But no, she didn't want to bite him, she wanted to tell him that she didn't appreciate his challenge. This was unexpected on everyones part, and we all were baffled, including my dog. If I could do it all over I wish that helper would have squealed like a girl and run away, then I would have let Asha run after him and get back in prey (chase! fun!) and get the tug and make a victory lap (that part where they always need to win). It was after this incident that I found that book Der Schutzhund and it became really clear how to read these different drives, and how each drive can be enhanced or discouraged.

Personal Protection is way different than IGP, and uses a lot of pressure that most dogs can't handle. A member here had some great videos but you'd have to go back about 2 or 3 years, again in the Schutzhund section threads.

I'm just yapping about my observations and learning, I'm just now learning to train IGP, but have years of animal behavioral science behind me, so when I get the right information it all clicks. LOL, one dog and a far away club gets me nowhere fast, but I still love the challenge of it.

 

[Doberman Gang]

Sorry for not posting in the thread guys. It’s my busy season this time of year at work.

Anyways, I finally got an appointment for me and Stassi to go see Joel Monroe. I’ve yet to talk anybody on the phone. And it took about 6 emails and texts back and forth to get a private session booked. But I got it done.
We haven’t been training much, as I’ve been busy harvesting. But I’m going to wrap up in a few days. So I should have a couple of weeks to get the obedience really tight before we go.
Question for you guys that train and trial. Do you crate more than normal, days leading up to training and trialing? To help with engagement. I’ve noticed through normal life events that go on. If I go a couple of days with Stassi crated most of the time (like 80-90% of the day). Her focus is lasered on me when out of the crate and doing things.

I keep our routine the same or as close to possible. Whether we are training at my club, a park or some other club. Try to give the same picture. It is like what I teach in my obedience class. “If you teach sit with your dog always in front of you, your dog may not understand the sit command when at your side. That is why you might see your dog move out of position to sit. They are trying to give the picture they were shown, you must teach sit in many positions and place for the dog to truly understand sit. Same goes for training in general, if you only train obedience at home then your obedience will not be as good in a strange location because the picture has now changed and it has not been taught in away for the dog to understand location doesn’t matter.”
Joel will be able to read your dog and know how to help move forward. I would just work on a training routine that is consistent, and always make it more about play with you than just drilling obedience.

 

[Ravenbird]

“If you teach sit with your dog always in front of you, your dog may not understand the sit command when at your side. That is why you might see your dog move out of position to sit. They are trying to give the picture they were shown, you must teach sit in many positions and place for the dog to truly understand sit.

Another challenge which I read about in dogs learning to generalize is to lay down on the floor and tell your dog to sit or down or stand. Many dogs act like you aren't talking to them from that position and the fact that your body language is foreign to their previous training. Also try turning your back to call out commands. It's fun & interesting & challenges both you & your dog to learn to think differently. Would be fun for you to do in a class with students who are beyond basics.

Here we go again...

 

[Cferg]

Another challenge which I read about in dogs learning to generalize is to lay down on the floor and tell your dog to sit or down or stand. Many dogs act like you aren't talking to them from that position and the fact that your body language is foreign to their previous training. Also try turning your back to call out commands. It's fun & interesting & challenges both you & your dog to learn to think differently. Would be fun for you to do in a class with students who are beyond basics.

Here we go again...

I use the analogy of painting a picture to training dogs. The more brush strokes (reps in as many different contexts as possible) the finer the details and a clearer picture with the finished painting.