Managing the defensive Doberman in modern times

[Cferg]

Yea Joel is awesome, he also shows rotties and works with all breeds. How far are you from Vacaville? Tim snd Amy Cutterson are awesome as well. They are Malinois people but can handle any situation.

Vacaville is at least 3.5 hrs. Are you familiar with Patrick Davis? He’s out of Fresno less than an hour away.
Team Driven

 

[Doberman Gang]

Vacaville is at least 3.5 hrs. Are you familiar with Patrick Davis? He’s out of Fresno less than an hour away.
Team Driven

No, dont know him

 

[Ravenbird]

OK, so here's an example of the working dog doing what a working dog wants to do, just in the wrong place at the wrong time. AKC scent work trial. We have to wait outside the test area so we can't see the team in front of us go (we'd see where the hides are). So we are seated in an empty room with door open to the outside, door is straight across from our chair about 20-30 feet across the room. The judge comes to the door and shouts "Next! Come on out!" - of course I was expecting it, but Asha was not and she exploded barking at the lady. I said "NO!" or "Quiet!" several times to no avail while leading her to the door to go out. The judge stood her ground beside the door and Asha barked at her as we approached. In nose work all I have on Asha is a nylon harness, zero control except that it has a handle so I pretty much picked her off her front feet as we walked and she was dragging me barking at the judge. The judge was cool, averted her eyes, stayed still and aloof. As soon as we got up to her Asha stopped, sniffed her legs and had no more interest in her. This is the 2nd time she has had a barking explosion directly aimed at a judge at an AKC event, the other time very similar to this one. (a surprise type appearance from behind a door) I'm well aware that to the wrong kind of judge who might be tired and cross I could get reported and dismissed for aggressive behavior.

My question is this. Being helpless to correct - Asha ignores my voice commands when at this state of mind - a 10, as discussed above - and I have no equipment that means anything to her. A prong or e-collar would have worked, but obviously not allowed. And if I tried to proof this somewhere with the equipment on, she'd be collar wise and may let loose an initial bark but stop with my first voice command of Quiet!, knowing what would follow if she didn't. In the actual event is it better to just ignore and not try to correct or correct with voice and be ignored. How to work on this at home? How to set it up?

And as a bonus, the test that followed was the very best run she had all weekend ("Excellent" is the 3rd level of Scent Work in AKC):

 

[Ravenbird]

One thing re: the above story - I am going to try to use a ball on a rope in my nose work practice, if I can get her to get off the ball and go directly into using her nose, then get the ball again. There were a couple of Mals there and their handler led them everywhere with a ball on a rope. In other words distraction where I can't use correction and I'd much rather do it this way if she will still perform knowing I have a ball. I'm getting there using it in obedience but there are still some times where she gets too excited knowing I have the ball.

 

[Doberman Gang]

My question is this. Being helpless to correct - Asha ignores my voice commands when at this state of mind - a 10, as discussed above - and I have no equipment that means anything to her. A prong or e-collar would have worked, but obviously not allowed. And if I tried to proof this somewhere with the equipment on, she'd be collar wise and may let loose an initial bark but stop with my first voice command of Quiet!, knowing what would follow if she didn't. In the actual event is it better to just ignore and not try to correct or correct with voice and be ignored. How to work on this at home?

You will need to train with just the collar on you use in competition. Blaze wears a fursaver, every time we train, it is the first thing I do before he gets out of his crate. Put on the fursaver, then depending on what we are doing either the prong goes on then the ecollar, or maybe just the ecollar. Make it a routine, when prepping for trial only the fursaver. The prong and or ecollar go in my pocket. This way during training if he acts up or doesn’t follow commands properly, we stop and I pull them out of my pocket and they go on for a correction. It doesn’t matter if they are collar smart or not. It is you saying “I will give you freedom and the chance to make the right decision but if you want to act up, I still have these with me. Then at a trial as far as they know those collars are on my person and can be brought out at anytime.

 

[Doberman Gang]

@Ravenbird in your first paragraph, when the judge came in and shouted next, when Asha started barking you should cap with a sit or down command. There should never be any barking when asked to sit or to down. Once capped heeling out of the room should also be done with no barking.
Practice by back-tying her, stand in front of her with her ball, tug, sleeve ect… I ask for barking by giving a guarding command (I will also threaten and crack a whip to get my dog to 10 level. Once she is in a high state of drive, ask for a sit or down. Once she complies with no barking turn in to heel position mark and reward by playing. You may have to do some quick rewards from the front first to get her the idea. If she doesn’t stop barking after the command to sit, say NO, Sit and correct, reward quickly once quiet. Build the duration of quiet like fir and stay command, build up to where you can turn into heel and actually begin heeling in quiet.

 

[Ravenbird]

Thanks so much - I will start working with both of those ideas. It's like you said last week - I haven't proofed when she's in a 10, so at the AKC trial, she was pretty awful trying to heel to exits and entrances through crowd of people & dogs with just a flat collar. In the big crowds she doesn't bark or get defensive, she just pulls like a freight train.

Once she is in a high state of drive, ask for a sit or down. Once she complies with no barking turn in to heel position mark and reward by playing.

So if she's back tied and I get her to a 10 with tug-tease/agitation and she complies when I say down, I go to basic position, unsnap the back tie & begin a play session?
If she doesn't down or keeps barking when she's down (that has happened when I try to cap it with a down), then I'm assuming the e-collar is in place and I reinforce my command with that?

Sorry for all the questions, I need a plan B when something doesn't work. I will try to video when I try this for everybody's amusement.

 

[Doberman Gang]

Thanks so much - I will start working with both of those ideas. It's like you said last week - I haven't proofed when she's in a 10, so at the AKC trial, she was pretty awful trying to heel to exits and entrances through crowd of people & dogs with just a flat collar. In the big crowds she doesn't bark or get defensive, she just pulls like a freight train.

So if she's back tied and I get her to a 10 with tug-tease/agitation and she complies when I say down, I go to basic position, unsnap the back tie & begin a play session?
If she doesn't down or keeps barking when she's down (that has happened when I try to cap it with a down), then I'm assuming the e-collar is in place and I reinforce my command with that?

Sorry for all the questions, I need a plan B when something doesn't work. I will try to video when I try this for everybody's amusement.

So at first I will just go straight up and reward while the dog is still back tied. Short play then get an out. I always down my dog before the out, again capping play. (But he was bad about coming up the leash and attacking you or outing then going for an arm or leg. He needed stability and understanding during training.) so if you have a good out, just out the toy and step back and ask for guarding again, making drive. Repeat. Eventually yes we want to move to heel position and reward then get heeling before the reward but you must still randomly reinforce at each position so the dog thinks it can get its reward at any moment.

Also at first when I cap drive it is the command and the ecollar at the same time. No waiting to see if they slowly sit or down, it is similar to leash pressure, pressure goes off the faster they comply. You can do this with a prong and a second line as well using leash pressure.

 

[Ravenbird]

This sounds like fun homework!

 

[Rits]

Lovely and informative!! I have more fun things to work on. Thank you @Ravenbird and @Doberman Gang !

 

[Doberman Gang]

I got to my class early, since it was raining we trained inside. Blaze is actually showing for the first time in AKC in two weeks. Going for Novice B CD. So we ran thru the novice and open exercises just for fun. Tried to video the position exercises but was by myself so not the best video.

 

[Ravenbird]

Blaze is actually showing for the first time in AKC in two weeks

That'll be fun! Send us an update on your new title when you get it! Not sure what you are showing in your video, I didn't think there are change of position at a distance in CD? I think what I remember most that different from IGP ob. - correct me if I'm wrong - all the about turns are right instead of left, and all the return to basic position are around the dog instead of straight to the dogs side. Ironically our little kennel club meet up is having a beginners CD review on Sunday, so I'll show up for that.

I just posted a good novice obedience (CD) video in the performance thread that I found on YouTube.

 

[Doberman Gang]

That'll be fun! Send us an update on your new title when you get it! Not sure what you are showing in your video, I didn't think there are change of position at a distance in CD? I think what I remember most that different from IGP ob. - correct me if I'm wrong - all the about turns are right instead of left, and all the return to basic position are around the dog instead of straight to the dogs side. Ironically our little kennel club meet up is having a beginners CD review on Sunday, so I'll show up for that.

I just posted a good novice obedience (CD) video in the performance thread that I found on YouTube.

I was just running him thru Novice and Open. That is part of the Open exercises. My wife got mad at me because I have never trained him for any exercises in AKC at any level. Then one night in my AKC competition class I got him out of the trailer to demonstrate how I teach basics, I then said I would attempt to run him thru the complete CDX. He did every exercise perfect. So my wife and some of the others in class got mad that he could do them without ever training them. I was making a point that training basics are more important than teaching the routine. I will typically never run straight thru a routine including prepping for IGP. Just train and have fun clarity for the dog.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

OK, so here's an example of the working dog doing what a working dog wants to do, just in the wrong place at the wrong time. AKC scent work trial. We have to wait outside the test area so we can't see the team in front of us go (we'd see where the hides are). So we are seated in an empty room with door open to the outside, door is straight across from our chair about 20-30 feet across the room. The judge comes to the door and shouts "Next! Come on out!" - of course I was expecting it, but Asha was not and she exploded barking at the lady. I said "NO!" or "Quiet!" several times to no avail while leading her to the door to go out. The judge stood her ground beside the door and Asha barked at her as we approached. In nose work all I have on Asha is a nylon harness, zero control except that it has a handle so I pretty much picked her off her front feet as we walked and she was dragging me barking at the judge. The judge was cool, averted her eyes, stayed still and aloof. As soon as we got up to her Asha stopped, sniffed her legs and had no more interest in her. This is the 2nd time she has had a barking explosion directly aimed at a judge at an AKC event, the other time very similar to this one. (a surprise type appearance from behind a door) I'm well aware that to the wrong kind of judge who might be tired and cross I could get reported and dismissed for aggressive behavior.

My question is this. Being helpless to correct - Asha ignores my voice commands when at this state of mind - a 10, as discussed above - and I have no equipment that means anything to her. A prong or e-collar would have worked, but obviously not allowed. And if I tried to proof this somewhere with the equipment on, she'd be collar wise and may let loose an initial bark but stop with my first voice command of Quiet!, knowing what would follow if she didn't. In the actual event is it better to just ignore and not try to correct or correct with voice and be ignored. How to work on this at home? How to set it up?

And as a bonus, the test that followed was the very best run she had all weekend ("Excellent" is the 3rd level of Scent Work in AKC):

View attachment 127976

My first thought was to train your Dobe to be silent on command. For me, this means no vocalization. He does get to huff out air, but no vocal chords involved. I train this to them early on. It helps to train them to bark on command. It is thus easier to train them to, on command, cease barking.

The other thought is that if your dog sees you as Alpha, and is well trained (I'm not saying this is not the case with you and Asha) that they will defer to your firm command, and your taking control of a situation. They will let you take over, and they will not feel that they need to handle the situation themselves. Further, the more times you get to practice this scenario, the better the dog will comply.

It is probably a bit easier for me with my males that I've had because they are gregarious and love people. They have a defensive side, oh yes; but especially because all they've (sigh) been exposed to is friendly people – at least in terms of who they've been allowed to meet – they tend to assume people are friendly and they allow their love of people and attention to rule.

 

[Ravenbird]

My first thought was to train your Dobe to be silent on command. For me, this means no vocalization. He does get to huff out air, but no vocal chords involved. I train this to them early on. It helps to train them to bark on command. It is thus easier to train them to, on command, cease barking.

The other thought is that if your dog sees you as Alpha, and is well trained (I'm not saying this is not the case with you and Asha) that they will defer to your firm command, and your taking control of a situation. They will let you take over, and they will not feel that they need to handle the situation themselves. Further, the more times you get to practice this scenario, the better the dog will comply.

In theory it's what I think should happen too, but with this dog it just doesn't. She definitely sees me as her boss and defers to me until she doesn't. As discussed above, she gets to a level of arousal (reactive without thinking about consequences) where I am no longer in the picture. The suggestions above sound like good advice for me & this particular dog. Because she is so well behaved and in control 98% of the time, I don't have the chance to train her when she's at that level. She'll come back to me (mentally) when at a 6 or a 7, but not a 10. And she always hits a 10 in a place like a trial where I don't have equipment on to back me up, so yeah, I'm needing new ideas. At least this sounds like fun for both me & Asha.

I was making a point that training basics are more important than teaching the routine.

So true. I was late learning this, but once I got it, it's priceless. And it's exactly what you are saying about capping at a level 10. You have to train the obedience at a level 10 (down/quiet) or it won't mean anything if you've only made them down/quiet when at a level 6. The lightbulb is starting to come on. LOL.

 

[Cferg]

‎Controlled Aggression: Pet Training Paradigms on Apple Podcasts

A controlled aggression podcast that goes over exactly what Doberman Gang brought up. It’s fantastic

 

[Cferg]

My first thought was to train your Dobe to be silent on command. For me, this means no vocalization. He does get to huff out air, but no vocal chords involved. I train this to them early on. It helps to train them to bark on command. It is thus easier to train them to, on command, cease barking.

The other thought is that if your dog sees you as Alpha, and is well trained (I'm not saying this is not the case with you and Asha) that they will defer to your firm command, and your taking control of a situation. They will let you take over, and they will not feel that they need to handle the situation themselves. Further, the more times you get to practice this scenario, the better the dog will comply.

It is probably a bit easier for me with my males that I've had because they are gregarious and love people. They have a defensive side, oh yes; but especially because all they've (sigh) been exposed to is friendly people – at least in terms of who they've been allowed to meet – they tend to assume people are friendly and they allow their love of people and attention to rule.

I take it you’ve never owned a truly defensive aggressive dog. Not fearful.
I’ve read quite a few of your stories of owning oji. He has a high prey drive, correct? In order to relate oji to asha. I’ll give you this scenario. Imagine your playing an intense game of fetch and oji is really worked up. Then someone walks up to you guys with a pet carrier. Your wondering who is this guy? He then releases a rabbit from the carrier just 6 feet from you and the rabbit takes off running. Would oji stay under obedience and ignore the rabbit running away just mere feet away from him? Just because you told him to?
A defensive dog that wants to drive someone away isnt dependent on their nerves. It doesn’t matter if they would actually fight the person to the death. They don’t know they won’t. All they know is their genes are telling them this is what they should do.
My dog @ 9 months old would calmly sit at the door and ring her door bell whining the whole time. She wanted out to blow up someone in our backyard. She would remain at the door the whole time the person was out there. It didn’t matter where I went in the house she would stay at the door.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I take it you’ve never owned a truly defensive aggressive dog. Not fearful.
I’ve read quite a few of your stories of owning oji. He has a high prey drive, correct? In order to relate oji to asha. I’ll give you this scenario. Imagine your playing an intense game of fetch and oji is really worked up. Then someone walks up to you guys with a pet carrier. Your wondering who is this guy? He then releases a rabbit from the carrier just 6 feet from you and the rabbit takes off running. Would oji stay under obedience and ignore the rabbit running away just mere feet away from him? Just because you told him to?
A defensive dog that wants to drive someone away isnt dependent on their nerves. It doesn’t matter if they would actually fight the person to the death. They don’t know they won’t. All they know is their genes are telling them this is what they should do.
My dog @ 9 months old would calmly sit at the door and ring her door bell whining the whole time. She wanted out to blow up someone in our backyard. She would remain at the door the whole time the person was out there. It didn’t matter where I went in the house she would stay at the door.

I don't know that you can speak to what I have or have not ever done or owned, but I read your comment a few times until I understood it and thanks for your input.

 

[Ravenbird]

A controlled aggression podcast that goes over exactly what Doberman Gang brought up. It’s fantastic

I'll definitely check that out, thanks for the link.

All they know is their genes are telling them this is what they should do.

So true. Why genetics are a huge part of training technique and you can't train all dogs the same way. I'm late to the game learning how to cap my inappropriately reactive dog.

 

[Ravenbird]

More questions & comments - any feedback welcome.

Practice by back-tying her, stand in front of her with her ball, tug, sleeve ect… I ask for barking by giving a guarding command (I will also threaten and crack a whip to get my dog to 10 level. Once she is in a high state of drive, ask for a sit or down.

Question: what is your guarding command? If I tie Asha back, and bring up the bite pillow she begins barking right away. So is there a command that is still needed or to confirm the action? I've never said anything to make her do it, just show the bite pillow and don't let her have it.

A day or two ago I had a thought in the middle of the night about this "capping the 10 exercise" and the book I mentioned to @Cferg Der Schutzhund and the mindset of the dog in different drives. When Asha goes off it is always in defense of what she has decided or knows is her space. The tie-back exercise is all in prey drive. But I thought I'll just see if I can get her up to a 10 and cap her, never mind about prey or defense. So tried it out today. She obeyed to near perfection. I will video it next time, but seriously hot & bothered, barking like crazy, hitting the end of the rope, I say Platz and down she goes. And stops barking. I rewarded with the pillow, played & tugged, then outed and withheld the prize, built her up, she downed on first command. I could go to basic had her sit while I pulled the pillow towards us with the line it was on, got it within reach, released her and everything was perfectly on command. E-collar was on, but I never had to use it.

I did the tie-back exercise today because yesterday another embarrassing moment. I'd gone to look at the creek that runs across our driveway as we've gotten some impressive rain. I took Asha out the gate to go with me, she had no collar on at all. I wasn't expecting to see anyone and "was just going to take a picture of the creek and come right back". LOL. But the neighbors who live down the road came by on their 4 wheeler, on the other side of the creek and stopped to say hi. Asha started barking and I told her quiet & down, but as the wife got out of the 4 wheeler (husband stayed in his seat) Asha just barreled across the rushing creek barking like nobody's business got up to about 3 - 4 feet of her barking at her & then turned and came back to me. I grabbed the scruff of her neck and was apologizing to them for Asha's rude behavior, but then the wife is going on shouting over the noise of the creek, about the weather and the flooding and waving her arms in gesture and Asha tears loose from my hold on her neck and goes over AGAIN, barks at her and turns and comes back. OMG. I took her up the driveway and had her Platz and stay, which she did. But holy hell. Totally not listening. So many mistakes on my part, I can correct those things. I never thought she'd go across the creek, it's usually just a couple feet wide and less than 5" deep, or completely dry. Now it was 12 feet wide, about 2 feet deep and rushing pretty fast. Asha did a one bounce to the middle and another to the other side, then back again twice. One of the times she almost made it completely across. At least I know she could do a long jump. Hahaha.

I took this video about 5 minutes before the neighbors showed up. Not hard for Asha to bounce in & out, but a small dog would have gotten swept downstream. Sound up for how much noise we had to shout over.

Here's a visual of "our side" and the road across where the neighbors stopped.



Long post again, I know. My lesson learned, I cannot let her be off leash without an e-collar. The neighbor was chill. She just stood there. But it's totally frustrating that she goes into this defense with no real threat and has zero response to me. It's why I did the tie-back and agitating homework today and then sure enough, all was perfect.

Is it because prey drive is all fun type frustration with no danger? And defense of space is so serious to her brain that she shuts me out? I will try the tie-back without the e-collar on to see if she still respects the commands like she did today. I could possibly drum up a volunteer to approach her to get her into this defense mode, but what to do about correction. If the e-collar is on she will not get out of control due collar-smart. She may get growly or bark once but if she has the collar on she'll lay flat down like a carpet knowing a stim may come. She won't take off like she did yesterday and bark right at them. If I set it up with no collar on, how to correct? I use to worry about capping this hard because I didn't want to squash the behavior entirely. Now I honestly don't think I have to worry about that.