The colors of a red Doberman

[Ddski5]

Doing research on red Dobermans and I am finding there are many different shades of red.
Rusty
Dirty red
Deep red
Chocolate
Mahogany

and a breeder told me that a red Dobermans color can fade from direct sunlight.

Is there any common denominator as to a certain shade of red being indicative of NA, SA, Euro, Serb, Russian, etc???

Any knowledge on this from you experts with red Dobermans?

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I have never heard of those names being assigned to different darknesses of the Reds. Where are you seeing or hearing those names? Just curious.

I know that some Reds are darker and some are lighter. I figured this is just the type of variation you find in living creatures.

Yes, I've heard of a dog's coat color fading or bleaching a bit from a lot of sun exposure.

I am not aware of the shade of red having a link to the region of the world in which the dog's lineage is from. But I'm not a total expert.

I imagine some may be able to add more information.

My first Doberman was a Red. A peculiar thing about him was that he had a full undercoat of light tan, fur that was lighter and softer in texture. His coat was still smooth, close and "hard" like a Dobe's should be, but he never had a nice shiny coat – I believe due to the undercoat.

 

[strykerdobe]

Forgot one Brown. Which is used in Europe.
Also the Mahogany which is darker than the Rust or Tan.

 

[Viemarangelrock]

We refer to reds as chocolate/brown here in Europe. They range from a bright copper to a very dark brown, almost liver coloured.
Here’s a little something I learnt when I went to Spain last year...they don’t say black & tan or red (Brown) & tan they say...black and fire and brown and fire!

 

[MyBuddy]

and a breeder told me that a red Dobermans color can fade from direct sunlight.

I've heard that before with horses. But haven't seen it a lot. Maybe it's been so subtle I hadn't noticed. A friend of mine has a beautiful black Friesian horse and she always keeps a light fly sheet on her horse when he's outside. Also fly boots and a mask. That horse looks like he's covered from head to toe. Aside from keeping flies off him, I know some of it is to keep his dark color. I was with her when she picked him up in Missouri and he was outdoors all the time and much more of a brown color. So I believe it does make a difference but I've never seen it in a doberman. As they are not an outdoor dog, I don't think they're outside long enough to change coat colors. Maybe a show dog owner would be more particular and see that slight change.

 

[Spoonito]

I can see that. UV / sunlight eventually fades everything I think.

 

[Ddski5]

I have never heard of those names being assigned to different darknesses of the Reds. Where are you seeing or hearing those names? Just curious.

It is not listed as factual information anywhere that I have found.

I have read/researched prob 30 breeders this week, some refer to them differently or describe their colors as being different than other reds/rusts. But there is a notable difference in some shades/colors.

Very hard to find one with the deep mahogany color. I thought that was more in the SA line but after looking, I am not too sure.

Then if you find one, it may be a working breed or a breeder that one may not have too much confidence in, so back to the board of finding that perfect red.

I don’t want to sound superficial here (I know it does though).....and must keep in focus that the health and breeders line is ALOT more important than color. I get that, truly do....but am looking for good health, good breeder and a colorful red coloring- not the red and tan. And then again, I am sure their coloring changes somewhat as they grow?? @Panama?

I have two good hits so far. One is close to me 3hrs away and the other is 17hrs? Working on two others but not for sure.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I don’t want to sound superficial here (I know it does though).....and must keep in focus that the health and breeders line is ALOT more important than color. I get that, truly do....but am looking for good health, good breeder and a colorful red coloring- not the red and tan.

I totally get it. That's how I feel when researching a dog or breeder. I have always felt that if I ask the breeder about size or appearance that they are going to take me for inexperienced or not well versed.

It's like: Yes! I get the health and temperament thing! I really do! But I still care – a lot – about appearance. Heck, you'd think any conformation breeder would get the caring about looks thing. But then again they might just feel like: If you care about looks, then buy one of or show prospects with breeding rights and promise to title them.

There is one Cane Corso breeder I've looked at who expressly states that a dog should not be chosen based on color and the they will not place a dog based on color and that you will not be able to request a certain color – or at least you certainly will not be able to expect to wind up with a certain color. Sheesh. I get the reasoning behind it, and it's well-intentioned I believe, but that's unacceptable to me. I want a dark-colored dog, not a tan one.

 

[Ravenbird]

@Ddski5 - sounds like you are serious now about a new puppy! Congrats! Besides Red, what are you looking for in type/temperment? This line confused me:

Then if you find one, it may be a working breed or a breeder that one may not have too much confidence in, so back to the board of finding that perfect red.

Keep us posted on your journey!

 

[Ddski5]

Yeah....pretty serious now.

The girls are virtual schooling because of Covid. They have taken a more responsible approach with Ragnar to prove they are worthy, haha. Tristen walks him in the morn and Kelsie will run with him in the evenings. They have to keep up their soccer physical shape up anyways to be able to compete. Payton makes sure that he gets fed. So all and all, I think they are doing well.

Also, I have always felt that Ragnar would love to have a companion. When he does get to know another dog, he goes crazy with them around- really likes their presence and play. And then there is @C908 sending those picts of Preacher and Mercy...... that pretty much sealed the deal.

I think we are ready and in a good spot right now.


Type/temperament?
I am not necessarily looking at any that are working or Euro. Ragnar maybe NA but that asshat has the drive of a working Doberman, so I need a female that isn’t going to cower or put up with his crap. He is ALOT like @C908 Preacher. Euros tend to be too blocky to me, just too much work in their appearance.

I really like the elegant regal appearance of a NA but not too dainty that they look breakable or like a Barbie Doberman. Add some muscle and a little hardness (solid obedience) in there and you have it to me.

I have seen some really nice NA/SA or NA/Euro crosses in my research and I’ve seen some nice straight NA Dobermans also. The trick is finding all the above....

-Have one solid contact- thanks to @Rits and @JanS.
-Have a possible- thanks to @Panama
-Have a possible- thanks to Ragnar’s breeder
-Have a possible with Acadiana Dobermans- but the member here wasn’t too pleased with how short his ears were cropped. That’s why I tried to re-light that thread, to see what he thought of that breeder and how his pup is doing.

 

[Kaiser2016]

The girls are virtual schooling because of Covid. They have taken a more responsible approach with Ragnar to prove they are worthy, haha. Tristen walks him in the morn and Kelsie will run with him in the evenings. They have to keep up their soccer physical shape up anyways to be able to compete. Payton makes sure that he gets fed. So all and all, I think they are doing well.

Lol, the girls are putting on a good show! Although, it does sound like Ragnar could use a companion and them tiring each other out is really appealing. It's always been my argument to get another one haha, but the man won't do it! Can't wait to see the new addition!

 

[JanS]

There are a ton of different shades of red but I believe that when they're AKC registered they're considered red/rust no matter what the shade.
Della had a true red hue.


And Phoebe is much darker, almost mahogany.


I hope you find your perfect pup!

 

[Ddski5]

Thanks @JanS, that’s exactly what I am referring too. The darker color rather than the lighter.

 

[Gelcoater]

Thanks @JanS, that’s exactly what I am referring too. The darker color rather than the lighter.

A few shots of Daisy
Sort of depended on the light.
She was more chocolate brown on top.
Flip her over and she was more red.
American mom, Euro pops, and her mom was also a more chocolate coat.

I’m pretty sure I could grab some screen shots in direct light where she looked a little more red.

 

[Rosa]

I've heard that before with horses. But haven't seen it a lot. Maybe it's been so subtle I hadn't noticed. A friend of mine has a beautiful black Friesian horse and she always keeps a light fly sheet on her horse when he's outside. Also fly boots and a mask. That horse looks like he's covered from head to toe. Aside from keeping flies off him, I know some of it is to keep his dark color. I was with her when she picked him up in Missouri and he was outdoors all the time and much more of a brown color. So I believe it does make a difference but I've never seen it in a doberman. As they are not an outdoor dog, I don't think they're outside long enough to change coat colors. Maybe a show dog owner would be more particular and see that slight change.

Black horses' coats will get sunburned to brown or reddish brown shades in the sun. I had a pinto, and he definitely got sunburned, but I didn't want to blanket him since it was so hot anyways.

 

[Rosa]

I've been wondering about this. I am a very black and rust fan, although I prefer a richer rust on the blacks. For me, I prefer the mahogany that I see in the SA Dobes, and some NA and Euro Dobes. Personally, I prefer the red and the markings to be distinctly different. Often, I get the impression that the Euro's markings are so dark that they almost blend in with the red often chocolate color. Reds like Phoebe and many of the reds I've seen at Melrae almost eclipse the blacks, but the blacks at Melrae are also gorgeous.

 

[Ravenbird]

I think @Oh Little Oji mentioned one time the really shiny blacks seemed to be genetic, as some blacks just didn't get that shine. After doing the Embark genetics testing I found out that my dog is BB, no dilutes in her system at all, so the lightbulb came on wondering if that's what gives her that black-black shine. Also wondering if a black puppy from a Black/Red breeding that expresses black, but carries the red gene isn't that shiny black Oji refers to. And on the subject of reds, would a red puppy coming from the Black/Red breeding perhaps be a deeper red rather than a paler red? I love genetics. I'd have to go do more homework though because I'm not sure if a red can express red if carrying any black gene. Hmmmm.

 

[Rosa]

I think @Oh Little Oji mentioned one time the really shiny blacks seemed to be genetic, as some blacks just didn't get that shine. After doing the Embark genetics testing I found out that my dog is BB, no dilutes in her system at all, so the lightbulb came on wondering if that's what gives her that black-black shine. Also wondering if a black puppy from a Black/Red breeding that expresses black, but carries the red gene isn't that shiny black Oji refers to. And on the subject of reds, would a red puppy coming from the Black/Red breeding perhaps be a deeper red rather than a paler red? I love genetics. I'd have to go do more homework though because I'm not sure if a red can express red if carrying any black gene. Hmmmm.

An interesting thought! I'm not big on genetics per say, but I study them more than my family. On observation I have though is that the SA Dobe tends to have a darker red with very defined markings, however, blacks definitely dominate in South America. I would assume that black is dominant, but I have no idea.

 

[Rosa]

Black coats and Red coats | Gentle Doberman

The most recognized color of the Doberman Pinscher is the black and rust; so much so that many people don’t realize the Doberman naturally produces three other colors. This is despite the fact that many dogs throughout the Doberman’s ancestry have been red and rust, including Roland vd Haide, a...

www.gentledoberman.com

https://dobequest.org/genotype.php

I don't see anything that suggests that the genes have something to do with the coloring, but you would assume that there is a reason.

 

[Rosa]

I think that since to be red the dog must have both recessive genes, it couldn't have anything to do with there being black genes in the ancestry since the dog only inherited the red genes. However, maybe it is related to the dilute gene.