An in depth study of the Doberman Standard [AKC]

[Dobs4ever]

I will start this before I leave for Natls today and we can start with a discussion of the head. I think it might be better to do one section at a time anyway for discussion sake. So we will start with the head.

From DPCA.org - The standard describes the ideal head:
HEAD
Long and dry, resembling a blunt wedge in both frontal and profile views. When seen from the front, the head widens gradually toward the base of the ears in a practically unbroken line. Eyes almond shaped, moderately deep set, with vigorous, energetic expression. Iris, of uniform color, ranging from medium to darkest brown in black dogs; in reds, blues, and fawns the color of the iris blends with that of the markings, the darkest shade being preferable in every case. Ears normally cropped and carried erect. The upper attachment of the ear, when held erect, is on a level with the top of the skull.

Top of skull flat, turning with slight stop to bridge of muzzle, with muzzle line extending parallel to top line of skull. Cheeks flat and muscular. Nose solid black on black dogs, dark brown on red ones, dark gray on blue ones, dark tan on fawns. Lips lying close to jaws. Jaws full and powerful, well filled under the eyes.

Teeth strongly developed and white. Lower incisors upright and touching inside of upper incisors true scissors bite. 42 correctly placed teeth, 22 in the lower, 20 in the upper jaw. Distemper teeth shall not be penalized. Disqualifying Faults: Overshot more than 3/16 of an inch. Undershot more than 1/8 of an inch. Four or more missing teeth.

The deviations: with a description of each

 

[Dobs4ever]

Why is the correct head structure so important our breed is not a head breed - but IMHO it should be as the head is the showcase that shows the alertness, intensity of the dog ...The head should be long and dry because loose flews can cause the dog to bite itself when on the attack which would cause the dog to release. They underjaw gives strength and power to the bite but is also critical to holding and supporting the teeth which should be big and powerful. The loss of underjaw means we are loosing the bigger teeth. THAT is the problem with lack of underjaw is lack of powerful teeth which means a WEAK bite.

So each piece described has a specific function that way too few are aware of. When discussing the standard we must understand it describes the WHOLE DOG....not just the part someone wants to change to suit their own unknown purpose. It is those parts that make a purebred a purebred.

To destroy or disrespect any part shows a lack of understand of what purebred is to begin with. It is the standard that was created by each breed club that protects and preserves any breed. Without it the would quickly fall back into the mutt category. The very existence of PUREBREDS was to breed for specifics not what everyone likes. There are enough breed that anyone can pick one that suits their likes but you can't pick a breed and think you can have it your way.

 

[Kitty's mom]

I just got back from the show. For lack of a better term, I saw a lot of Collie heads. I saw several with domed back skulls and low earsets.

I understand the concern about the lower jaw as well. I've heard of many picky eaters and now I'm wondering if any of that is related to the muzzle shape and small incisors. It's hard to pick up kibble if your teeth are tiny and set back.

I'd love to compare notes on the red Russian dog. The Serbian was a no show yesterday. The working class dog is very nice.

 

[JanS]

I just got back from the show. For lack of a better term, I saw a lot of Collie heads. I saw several with domed back skulls and low earsets.

See this is one of the things I've seen a lot of the past few years too and it almost seems like these traits are being bred into the dogs on purpose. If anything is veering off the standard I don't like it or the fads that go with it. It wouldn't take long to destroy a good breed if it starts a chain reaction.

 

[Ingrid H]

If I had to judge Hans by the chart, I'd say he probably has a bit of a prominent frontal arch and a slight roman nose

 

[Kitty's mom]

If I had to judge Hans by the chart, I'd say he probably has a bit of a prominent frontal arch and a slight roman nose

It's been my experience that a Roman nose is somewhat common with the boys. in a bit self it doesn't normally impair the bite.

 

[Dobs4ever]

The Neck and topline:
NECK, TOPLINE, BODY
Neck proudly carried, well muscled and dry. Well arched, with nape of neck widening gradually toward body. Length of neck proportioned to body and head. Withers pronounced and forming the highest point of the body. Back short, firm, of sufficient width, and muscular at the loins, extending in a straight line from withers to the slightly rounded croup.
Chest broad with forechest well defined. Ribs well sprung from the spine, but flattened in lower end to permit elbow clearance. Brisket reaching deep to the elbow. Belly well tucked up, extending in a curved line from the brisket. Loins wide and muscled. Hips broad and in proportion to body, breadth of hips being approximately equal to breadth of body at rib cage and shoulders. Tail docked at approximately second joint, appears to be a continuation of the spine, and is carried only slightly above the horizontal when the dog is alert.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Neck Tie into shoulders:

 

[Dobs4ever]

So far all descriptions describe a very balanced and well proportioned dog. So when you see a dog you should see the whole dog. If any part sticks out or seem exaggerated then you can bet it is wrong. There is no more balanced dog than the Doberman and its standard describes a square dog. Everything must be balanced - A snipey head will not be balanced as the muzzle is not equal to the top of the skull and parallel planes but appears unbalanced.

For correct movement the neck must be long enough that they dog has a wide range of motion in order to turn its heads and see things around it. Too short a neck will restrict this range of motion. Too long and the head adds additional stress to the neck as it tries to carry the weight.

 

[JanS]

To me the "ewe neck" is being bred into more and more dogs these days. I don't get why they describe it as lack of arch though. To me it looks like an exaggerated arch behind the head rather than a lack of?

 

[Dobs4ever]

Jan the head does not bend correctly at the pole. It should be an arch not a sharp narrow bend if that makes sense.
Have just watched the dogs today I will say this - what you are seeing I think is more in BYB dogs than dogs of better quality.
While we do have a problem with lack of underjaw it is not near as bad as what I see in dogs that are not bred with a clear understanding of the standard.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Forequarters:

 

[Dobs4ever]

Forequarters cont:

 

[Dobs4ever]

Forequarters deviations;

 

[Dobs4ever]

I saw several that toed in today at Natls. It was disappointing to say the least. The front end carries 65% of the weight so it needs to be structured correctly. The large oversized fronts with a smaller rear end will not hold up for working because it puts too much stress on the rear. BALANCE. Square compact.

 

[Gelcoater]

Another great thread,pure gold.Glad to see this one is a sticky
Not to start any drama,no names will be mentioned.
For a noob like me,I am learning a lot from this thread.
From time to time we get a new member with little experience breeding,little or no experience with this breed yet have grandiose ideas of breeding their dog or puppy in the not too distant future.
Most times the dog in question is from a breeder (term used lightly) who also knew little.
We can sure hope these people with $ signs,big plans but little knowledge(even if they think they know)in their minds stumble across this thread and actually take the time to absorb the content.
Thank everyone contributing to this thread,I look forward to learning more.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Gel attending one national can certainly open ones eyes. The difference in quality is clearly and quickly evident. The standard describes the ideal dog breeders are to strive for. As I was watching the rings today and the dogs, it brou
ght home how important breeding to the standard is for all. A breeding can go downhill in one breeding and it can take years to get it back to something you can live with.

Ayla winning best puppy 2007 UDC Natls.


Rayna a Shrock daughter - Koko and Prada's dam



Anja an Ayla Daughter

 

[Dobs4ever]

Reba - going way back

Bella an Ayla daughter and littermate to Anja

 

[Dobs4ever]

Cambria's Cactus Cash - Eddie


Dictator from 1940's winner of Westminister

Kafka - CH Brunswig Cryptonite sire of the first dog Eddie and line bred from Dictator



Can you see the family resemblance??? How do they compare to what you see today???

 

[Gelcoater]

Cambria's Cactus Cash - Eddie
View attachment 37089

View attachment 37090 Dictator from 1940's winner of Westminister

Kafka - CH Brunswig Cryptonite sire of the first dog Eddie and line bred from Dictator
View attachment 37091 View attachment 37091


Can you see the family resemblance??? How do they compare to what you see today???

Wow,yes I can.
Sending you a pm,don't want to muddy this thread