White dobermans

[DLS]

I have met many dogs that were crossed with doberman, some definately acted doberman even though they were 1/2 lab, 1/2 pitbull or 1/2 german shepherd, { I only mention those crosses because they are the HONIEST breeds on the planet, lol} What I am getting at is just cause they act and look like doberman does not mean that the color white should be bred for. I have gone back into some old testimonials about whites, and I am sorry but I do not see them being happy in life with eyes that hurt from the light. I am still going by what I have read, not by what I have seen, I still have not met a white doberman in person. But I do know that most people involved with dobermann, LOVE the breed, if whites were "OK", I believe most doberman lovers would accept them.

 

[Velmadobe]

I have never seen a quality white doberman. Where are they?

I do, however, recognize they are dobermans and have no problem with them as rescues etc. I just don't understand why anyone would want to breed for this color, knowing the research. It perplexes me. If they have so many problems, why would anyone want to take on that battle or promote whites? I would like to know......why? Where is the research on the support of breeding whites? I have read the research on why they are inferior. I'd like to read the research on why one should breed whites and not from someone that is gaining financially from breeding them.

I'm asking these questions in all sincerity.

Becky




Becky

I can't give you the answers you are looking for - what I can tell you is that you can find lots of inaccurate propaganda telling you that there is nothing wrong with breeding for an albino trait..... and heck, they will tell you that they are "white" not "albino" . They have all kinds of hinky arguments but none of them make any sense.

I have met several albino's that have come through rescue - some are nice dogs and some are wacko's - all have issues with bright sunlight. Most of the albino dogs I have met have owners who know how to deal with their issues and how to train them to their potential. They will all tell you that although they love their dog no matter what color it is, they would NEVER EVER think that they should be bred.

The DPCA has accepted 4 colors into its standard - they are all actually colors and even though dilutes have more coat problems due to their color, they are accepted..... if not encouraged. Albino Dobermans are NOT a color - if you dna tested them for their coat color, it would come up one of 4 colors: black, red, blue or fawn - the albino gene MASKS the color they should have been.

Even though albino greeders have managed to bring a few decent quality Dobermans into their breeding pool, the overall quality of albinos and most Z registered Dobermans remains pretty poor - as does the temperament of way too many of them.

I will never understand the mind set of the people who breed them - nor do I care to.

 

[Miller Dobes]

Let me be clear, it is my opinion that the white doberman or Z factored dobermans should not be bred, period. I just wondered if there are any that have even remotely decent confirmation. I've never seen one. I just don't understand why anyone would want to bred them.

Having said that, rescues need homes. This is a different subject and nothing against them as rescues......just my opinion.:winter_smilies_0012

I needed to make this clear.

Becky

 

[ChromeNun]

My Dobie is a z-factor...I didn't know about that when I bought him...There has not been a white Dobie in his lineage for 8 generations, and all before him up til that ONE, were all either black or red...

What I am asking is should I never breed him??? Or only breed him to NON-Z, or what is truly thought here??? It is NOT his fault that some idiot bred inferior Dobies somewhere along the line in his past...And ironically, his other tree limb in genetics is full of Champions...somebody dropped the ball...

I am so miffed about this situation...I bought him (paid GOOD MONEY) as a stud, and as a companion, and now I find out he is a "bastard"...He is so intelligent, and so beautifully marked, but now I am feeling that he is less than he should be...I feel that if z-factor Dobies were SO BAD, then AKC should NOT have registered them...I would NOT have bought and paid for a NON-AKC...So did AKC let me down????

 

[Velmadobe]

My Dobie is a z-factor...I didn't know about that when I bought him...There has not been a white Dobie in his lineage for 8 generations, and all before him up til that ONE, were all either black or red...

What I am asking is should I never breed him??? Or only breed him to NON-Z, or what is truly thought here??? It is NOT his fault that some idiot bred inferior Dobies somewhere along the line in his past...And ironically, his other tree limb in genetics is full of Champions...somebody dropped the ball...

I am so miffed about this situation...I bought him (paid GOOD MONEY) as a stud, and as a companion, and now I find out he is a "bastard"...He is so intelligent, and so beautifully marked, but now I am feeling that he is less than he should be...I feel that if z-factor Dobies were SO BAD, then AKC should NOT have registered them...I would NOT have bought and paid for a NON-AKC...So did AKC let me down????

The AKC did not let you down - they are a breed registry not the breed police If I breed an akc registered albino to an akc registered black Doberman with a sway back, bad hips, flat feet, no angulation, 5 missing teeth...... the offspring are still eligable for AKC registration because the parents were. What the AKC does do is to put a "Z" as the second letter in the registration to let Doberman people know that there is an albino or a possible albino carrier in the pedigree. There is no genetic test available that will show us if the albino gene is present or not - so if there is an albino somewhere in the pedigree of a dog, it carries the "Z" . It is up to the breeders to do the right things when breeding dogs - there are way more breeders out there that don't do the right things, than there are breeders doing all the right things. Being able to tell the good breeders from the bad breeders is what buyers have to do.....not an easy task without guidence from the right people.


Why do you feel the need to breed him? No one with a quality bitch is going to breed to a z factored Doberman - or any Doberman that has not proven his worth one of the accepted venues - whether that be the AKC Breed ring or the Schutzhund field... anyone that would be intersted in breeding would most likely only be taking the good qualities that exist in your boys pedigree one generation farther from quality..... which really is a bad idea IMHO.

I keep trying to impress on people that breeding dogs of any breed is NOT an entry level activity. There are so many things that people can do with their dog in order to build a wonderful relationship between them - obedience/rally/flyball/tracking/working dog sport/therapy dog work...... get to know the breed, study the breed, and find a mentor or two or three and start learning. If you are truly interested in the welfare and future of the breed, then take the time (years) to really do it right. I had Dobermans for 15 years before taking the plunge into becoming a breeder - I have no regrets and I KNOW 100% that I did it right.

People need to love the dogs they have - they will return that love 200%. For all that I am a "show breeder", my dogs are pets first. I have a 13 month old male whose pedigree is golden - he will finish his championship easily when I take him back out in the spring. I will put back end titles on him ... a WAC, and hopefully some obedience/rally titles. He may sire a litter at some point, and then again, he may not. I don't judge his worth to me by what he might be able to produce if bred. I just enjoy him - he is such a goofball.... what is not to love?!

 

[ChromeNun]

People need to love the dogs they have - they will return that love 200%. For all that I am a "show breeder", my dogs are pets first. I have a 13 month old male whose pedigree is golden - he will finish his championship easily when I take him back out in the spring. I will put back end titles on him ... a WAC, and hopefully some obedience/rally titles. He may sire a litter at some point, and then again, he may not. I don't judge his worth to me by what he might be able to produce if bred. I just enjoy him - he is such a goofball.... what is not to love?!

I do love Damien...he is so sweet, and he is so gentle to me...last week, I got run over by a blind blood hound...she probably weighs 100 or more pounds...and I have been hobbling and using a cane because of her, but I am not hostile toward her, she simply did not see me...

My pup wanted to try to help me, but he was behind an electric fence...he had no way to get to me, and that was not his fault...

I went looking for a Dobie stud, and I was terribly misled...I used to breed Dobies back in the 70's, and after my daughter went off to college, I thought it would be something I might want to do again...I had no idea that things had gotten so out of hand....it scares the bejesus outta me now...

What more can I say???

 

[Faber]

I wouldn't breed him, I'd just love him....I know that's not what you want to hear....or even take him back if your dead set on breeding....Your studying, that's a start.
AKC is actually your freind in this, as they are where you can look for the z factor marking....Your breeder on the other hand, screwed you....sorry to say.

JMHO
(just my honest opionion)

 

[FredC]

Ive posted as much information as i could. So now ill just be blunt. you cannot ethically breed a Z factored doberman. As a matter of fact if the DPCA had there way these dogs wouldnt even be allowed to be reigistered at all. Even the large scale commercial kennels steer clear of the Z designation. And it is most peoples opinions that these people have no ethics at all.

Just my 2 pennys.

 

[DoberDon]

Hi ChromeNun, I'm guessing you've become too attached to give him back now,but if you got him to breed and the seller wasn't honest,you could possibly take them to small claims court yourself and at least get his purchase price back .Every state is a little different but in Indiana it costs less than 100$ and you can do it without a lawyer.You're limited to a few thousand in an award but it might be an option and hopefully would motivate the breeder to be more honest with people in the future!
As far as breeding him,VonDoom is 100% correct!!! I've read in this debate someones' post that they had all sorts of experience with whites and they don't have abnormal health problems,that's just not true.I followed the link to the Ill.Dobe rescue site from the rescue page about the fat dobe and looked at their available dobes,they've got a totally blind albino right now,or just search doberman on petfinder.com and you'll usually find many albino's with problems.The rescue place I've gotten my last 2 from has rescued over3000 dobes and they've always got a high number of albinos many of which are unadoptable for health or temperment issues.I also know some don't have temperment problems and make great pets but the odds are so much worse than a non-albino! I also would ask with so many wonderful dogs available from rescue,many of which are being put down every day,why create more? No offence,I'm not being critical just curious.
I visited your state about 12yrs ago to play your Robert Trent Jones Trail golf and enjoyed the different areas there and the southern hospitality! Some beautiful country there.Good luck and have a great week!!
Don

 

[ChromeNun]

Thanks, guys and girls...

I can see your point, and for the good of the breed, I think I will have him neutured. It's a shame, but it all came down to one of his 5th generation back being straight out of a line of CollinDobes, which I then purchased the pedigree for that dog, and found 3 generations back from her a solid line of whites...

I will be much more careful in the future...

And Don, yes the golf courses here are quite nice. I don't play myself, but my dear husband did, and I loved to ride with him while he played. The alligators can scare ya a bit though!!!!

 

[FredC]

Thanks, guys and girls...

I can see your point, and for the good of the breed, I think I will have him neutured. It's a shame, but it all came down to one of his 5th generation back being straight out of a line of CollinDobes, which I then purchased the pedigree for that dog, and found 3 generations back from her a solid line of whites...

I will be much more careful in the future...

And Don, yes the golf courses here are quite nice. I don't play myself, but my dear husband did, and I loved to ride with him while he played. The alligators can scare ya a bit though!!!!

Dont feel to bad this happens in other areas to. Sometimes the pick of the litter dosent grow up to be all that the breeder expected. Or just simply cant pick up those majors needed to finish a championship. Health issues are always a craps shoot, regardless of the lines. Ive got alot of money invested in my female but if all the different variables dont come together for me i wont place her in my program and will have to start from scratch. Fortunatly you at least know now and dont have to wait till after 2 yrs of age for completed health tests. Currently Kali is scheduled for multiple shows in the AKC and trust me these points dont come cheap. I could potentially have a Champion and find out next year that her Hips or elbows are graded poorly. Thousands of dollars down the drain at that point.

So It could be worse. but i would at least look into the advice Don has given you. I believe you were misinformed and should be compinsated.

 

[Silent]

VD you might want to consider doing her hips/elbows as a prelim http://www.offa.org/hipprelim.html

A recent publication* compared the reliability of the preliminary evaluation hip grade phenotype with the 2 year old evaluation in dogs and there was 100% reliability for a preliminary grade of excellent being normal at 2 years of age (excellent, good, or fair). There was 97.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of good being normal at 2 years of age, and 76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age. Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal hip conformation or HD. For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months).

 

[ChromeNun]

So It could be worse. but i would at least look into the advice Don has given you. I believe you were misinformed and should be compinsated.

Thanks for the advice, but at this point I love my pup too much to hassle with a law problem...I am pretty miffed that I got took, but then, I also feel like my poor pup got the worse end of that stick...

I am glad that I found out about this BEFORE it was too late...

 

[DoberDon]

Hi ChromeNun;
I would say your pup didn't get the short end of the stick,I'd say it's more like he probably lucked out and got a great home.All you have to do is look on petfinder.com to see a whole bunch of dobes that dream about having a good home with a responsible,loving owner. If the breeder you got him from knew you wanted to breed him and didn't tell you about the Z factor,I'll bet your pup could have ended up anywhere,including with someone who might have dumped him or put him down when they found out! He's lucky to have someone who'll accept him and love him and God bless you for it!!! Don

 

[Silent]

Very well said DoberDon.

 

[scottr24]

sorry i don't think anybody should actively be breeding them.

 

[Faber]

agreed silent, well said Don.....well said!

 

[ChromeNun]

Hi ChromeNun;
I would say your pup didn't get the short end of the stick,I'd say it's more like he probably lucked out and got a great home.All you have to do is look on petfinder.com to see a whole bunch of dobes that dream about having a good home with a responsible,loving owner. If the breeder you got him from knew you wanted to breed him and didn't tell you about the Z factor,I'll bet your pup could have ended up anywhere,including with someone who might have dumped him or put him down when they found out! He's lucky to have someone who'll accept him and love him and God bless you for it!!! Don

Thank you DoberDon...and you are right, Damien and I are becoming a wonderfilled little family together...he sleeps with me every night (I know, I know, I ain't supposed to let him do that) and he goes to work with me everyday...he somehow taught himself that he should NEVER get out of the car unless I have hold of his leash...he sits politely and waits...I am amazed at this pup...and he is learning what "come here" means...he actually turned and came just two days ago...I was astonished!!!! Dobies are usually so hardheaded and determined, and will ignore most of what you say...

He has a lot of hand signals down to the t...his SIT is absolutely beautiful, and his DOWN is too...we are still working on STAY, but he is getting it little by little...We have gotten to where he will actually WALK ON LOOSE LEASH from the car to the door of the house without pulling, and that is on a flat collar...I am so proud of him!!!!

Now, if I could just get him to not WHINE everytime I am on the telephone (he gets SO JEALOUS of me talking to anyone), or to not try to eat my big fat Buddha Siamese cat when he wants to sit in my lap...Dobermans are a bit on the JEALOUS SIDE!!!!

Did I tell ya'll that I am so happy to have another Doberman in my life????

 

[Faber]

I'm so happy for you!....
Sounds like he has the best home!

 

[jonsie]

I adopted a white female and she is the reason I now own my boy out of the DelNasi Kennel-she was smart, loving and very gentle. I read about all of the supposed problems they're said to have and after 4 yrs I haven't seen them manifest. I live in Michigan and I must say she hates the cold, wet, and anything else that makes her uncomfortable-she's smart as hell. I don't know why the powers that be say all these bad things about white dobes, but I haven't found any truth yet to their inferences, what did they say about white shepards when they first showed up?