Faber
Jr Member
got ya....
White dobermans
- Thread starter Zeus19742008
- Start date
got ya....
F
FredC
lol the not wanting to go down isnt the real problem its the food that dosent want to stay down.
whitedobees
New Member
whitedobees
New Member
Hello, all!! I am new to this forum, and just have a few questions. I used to raise Dobies back in the early 70's, and was not aware of the "white" factor Doberman. Now that my youngest had gone off to college, I decided to get another Doberman. I found what I believed to be a wonderful male pup, 4 months old. He is a delightful boy, and quite intelligent. He is almost 10 months old now. I did NOT realize, nor was I informed by the breeder, that he was a z factor Dobie. In fact, I only became aware of the white Doberman in the past couple of weeks.
I have his pedigree going back 5 generations, and although I can find two of his ancestors on the "z list", I cannot find out where the "white" ancestor might have factored in. Both of the ancestors that are on the "z list" were black and rust. His mother was a blue, and she is also designated as a WZ number.
I am confused. In his pedigree, I find only "acceptable" colors. My question is if a white dobie is born in a litter, does the whole litter get the "z" designation?? I cannot seem to find a connection is his lineage to a white Doberman.
My next question may sound stupid, but as he is aging, I am noticing that the hair on the back of his ears is turning rust colored at the base of the back of his ears. They were a beautiful black when he was younger, but in the past couple of weeks they have started to show more rust. I have never seen this on a Dobie before, and I am wondering if this a sign of poor breeding??? Otherwise, he has beautiful markings, very even and sharp. His coat is quite shiny and his temperment is wonderful.
Thanks for any help or information ya'll might be willing to share with me.
I have his pedigree going back 5 generations, and although I can find two of his ancestors on the "z list", I cannot find out where the "white" ancestor might have factored in. Both of the ancestors that are on the "z list" were black and rust. His mother was a blue, and she is also designated as a WZ number.
I am confused. In his pedigree, I find only "acceptable" colors. My question is if a white dobie is born in a litter, does the whole litter get the "z" designation?? I cannot seem to find a connection is his lineage to a white Doberman.
My next question may sound stupid, but as he is aging, I am noticing that the hair on the back of his ears is turning rust colored at the base of the back of his ears. They were a beautiful black when he was younger, but in the past couple of weeks they have started to show more rust. I have never seen this on a Dobie before, and I am wondering if this a sign of poor breeding??? Otherwise, he has beautiful markings, very even and sharp. His coat is quite shiny and his temperment is wonderful.
Thanks for any help or information ya'll might be willing to share with me.
Welcome to the board ChromeNun. I'm by no means an expert on the genetics, so I'll let someone else handle that, but I just wanted to give you a welcome. 
As for the ears, I know some horses are born one color, like black, and totally change as they mature, so that may be what's going on with your boy being that he's only 10 months old. Otherwise, if he's been scratching them, it can often cause them to lighten for a while.
Our black horse always lightens to a dark roan in the spring and fall right before he sheds too, but I don't know if the same can hold true with dogs or not.
As for the ears, I know some horses are born one color, like black, and totally change as they mature, so that may be what's going on with your boy being that he's only 10 months old. Otherwise, if he's been scratching them, it can often cause them to lighten for a while.
Our black horse always lightens to a dark roan in the spring and fall right before he sheds too, but I don't know if the same can hold true with dogs or not.
WZ is used to identify all descendents of the original white dobermans. Even if the last true white in your dogs pedigree was the actual first white and no other whites or white factored have ever been added in the pedigree. It never drops off regardless of how many generations back that white was. The z does not mean your dog carries the z factor, it only means that it could because some where back there is a white. The z was added to identify dogs that could potentially carry the gene, there is no test other than test breeding to a white to know for sure if your dog carries white.
The rust your referring to sounds like it could be muddy markings (where the rust and black blend together instead of being distinctly seperated). I am not sure as far as it showing up now at his age other than he is loosing/lost his puppy coat and getting his adult coat. Is it possible that the hair is thinner there letting the skin show through more? Muddy markings usually runs in lines so you may want to check/ask about his parents/grandparents or siblings markings.
The rust your referring to sounds like it could be muddy markings (where the rust and black blend together instead of being distinctly seperated). I am not sure as far as it showing up now at his age other than he is loosing/lost his puppy coat and getting his adult coat. Is it possible that the hair is thinner there letting the skin show through more? Muddy markings usually runs in lines so you may want to check/ask about his parents/grandparents or siblings markings.
Thanks for the warm welcome!!
Ok, I have been able to find the 5th generation-back dog that is probably the one I might need to trace back even further. I guess what I am trying to determine is that will my dog, if I decided to have a litter, would his pups and all of their descendents, FOREVER have the Z distinction??
Can I go to AKC's site, and pay for that particular dog's pedigree and possibly find out where along the line was the white dobie?? I really don't want to contribute to any possible problems in the Doberman world. We have fought so hard to overcome so many stigmas attached to the breed as it is, and I would only want to do what is right for the future of this noble animal.
Also, I happen to have been one of the ones back in the early 70's that actually had a "Warlock" Doberman. But we only used this term when the Pedigree actually listed Borong the Warlock as one of the ancestors of the pup. Borong was my dog's great grandfather. It was that pup that made me fall in love with the breed. He was truly magnificent. I miss him to this day.
Or should I just get my pup neutured and be done with it?? I bought him for stud, the breeder was aware that I wanted to stud him, yet he NEVER mentioned that he was a "z" pup. I paid almost $1500.00 for this pup, and now I am feeling a bit let down. I love my pup, but I would have kept looking if I had known. I almost made this mistake again this past week (I was looking for a mate) when the breeder mentioned (bragged) that the bitch was a white dobie. That is when I started looking into the situation.
And please, I am not in anyway putting down White Dobies, it is just that I, personally, prefer the Black and Rust, and always have. Everyone has a preference, and that is mine.
Thanks for ya'll's help.
Ok, I have been able to find the 5th generation-back dog that is probably the one I might need to trace back even further. I guess what I am trying to determine is that will my dog, if I decided to have a litter, would his pups and all of their descendents, FOREVER have the Z distinction??
Can I go to AKC's site, and pay for that particular dog's pedigree and possibly find out where along the line was the white dobie?? I really don't want to contribute to any possible problems in the Doberman world. We have fought so hard to overcome so many stigmas attached to the breed as it is, and I would only want to do what is right for the future of this noble animal.
Also, I happen to have been one of the ones back in the early 70's that actually had a "Warlock" Doberman. But we only used this term when the Pedigree actually listed Borong the Warlock as one of the ancestors of the pup. Borong was my dog's great grandfather. It was that pup that made me fall in love with the breed. He was truly magnificent. I miss him to this day.
Or should I just get my pup neutured and be done with it?? I bought him for stud, the breeder was aware that I wanted to stud him, yet he NEVER mentioned that he was a "z" pup. I paid almost $1500.00 for this pup, and now I am feeling a bit let down. I love my pup, but I would have kept looking if I had known. I almost made this mistake again this past week (I was looking for a mate) when the breeder mentioned (bragged) that the bitch was a white dobie. That is when I started looking into the situation.
And please, I am not in anyway putting down White Dobies, it is just that I, personally, prefer the Black and Rust, and always have. Everyone has a preference, and that is mine.
Thanks for ya'll's help.
Faber
Jr Member
I feel for your situation and hope someone with more knowledge then I awnsers.
If I had to guess he is and his siblings/offspring will be "z factored" (if one is in his heritage)....if bred to the right bitch I would suppose a white dobe is possible. It souds like your breeder either didn't do appropriate health research or didn't tell you.
As for the z-factored dobes, I would guess like with anything opionions vary.
And the Warlock thing, from what I understand, would be a term you proably used correctly that now has become a term used in foul to mean "over-sized"....which most believe means a negative thing and that someone has breed a dobe to be larger then it should and proably lost other positive traits in the process.
Like I say, these are more my opionions then I know them to be fact, and I hope you get a more factual awnser from other members.
If I had to guess he is and his siblings/offspring will be "z factored" (if one is in his heritage)....if bred to the right bitch I would suppose a white dobe is possible. It souds like your breeder either didn't do appropriate health research or didn't tell you.
As for the z-factored dobes, I would guess like with anything opionions vary.
And the Warlock thing, from what I understand, would be a term you proably used correctly that now has become a term used in foul to mean "over-sized"....which most believe means a negative thing and that someone has breed a dobe to be larger then it should and proably lost other positive traits in the process.
Like I say, these are more my opionions then I know them to be fact, and I hope you get a more factual awnser from other members.
zoorox
Notable member
any puppy sired by your dog will have the z on the papers.
as for the brown on the base of the ears.......my pup has brown in places I am not use to also! I also had dobermans 25 years ago and notice a big differance in the shape and color now.....mine where always a deep black with no bleeding of the brown. my zoo boy is almost 1 year old and has a bit of brown in places I dont think it should be.....
as for the brown on the base of the ears.......my pup has brown in places I am not use to also! I also had dobermans 25 years ago and notice a big differance in the shape and color now.....mine where always a deep black with no bleeding of the brown. my zoo boy is almost 1 year old and has a bit of brown in places I dont think it should be.....
F
FredC
wow. Someone that actually really had owned a dog related to warlock. lol. I have met so many people who throw that warlock word around. your almost like a unicorn
Almost every American Doberman has Borong in there pedigree if you go back far enough. i think i read somewhere around 80%? Unfortunatly the gene pool for dobermans is pretty small these days. I seen a graph a few months back that i could shoot myself for not saving now. But it represented the doberman gene pool over the decades. And also noted how doberman health issues have gone up in direct corelation with the shrinking gene pool.
I sure wish I had my first Dobie's papers, then I could prove his lineage. My only disappointment when I was considering him was that his mom was a blue. I did not like the look of a blue Dobie, and was fearful that he would throw them. Fortunately, I can't remember him ever throwing a litter with a blue. But anyway, he was a beautiful Dobie, and I was fortunate to have him in my life. I have pictures of him and his grandfather, also named Warlock, who lived on a houseboat. I did not name mine after the Warlock heritage, and I simply called him Zak. And I never mentioned anything to do with size, but rather his lineage. I am going by his pedigree which went back over many generations. Back then we didn't have the convenience of a computer to keep records, so they were all done by hand.
Back in those times, it was recommended that you not buy from a breeder before the pup was at least 9 months old. Most reputable (at least that is what I was told) breeders raised the pups until they were of an age to where the buyer could tell what the demeanor and look of the pup would be. When I bought my first pup, the breeder did not allow me to take him home with me until he was 3 months and that was only then because I was local to them. I visited him weekly or more often until I could bring him home. I then had to return each week for the breeder to access his progress, check on his ear cropping, etc. When I started breeding him a few years later, I was quite picky about who he bred to and turned down many offers (I am sure he was not happy about me doing the "picking", I think he would have been happy to SERVICE them all!!)
Anyway, I came here to this forum out of concern when I learned that my pup is a "z factor" pup. Yes, I am disappointed but I still love him dearly. We have just started obedience lessons, and he is doing well. I am glad that I am now aware that he is a "z factor" pup, and will do my best to make better informed decisions about his future. In the interest of bettering the breed, I am considering neuturing him at this point.
I do agree with the person that stated that lately the markings and colorings of the breed is not as prominent as it once seemed to be. I notice a lot of Dobies with very little rust on their chests, and poorly defined markings on their faces. Even my pup has black markings on his toes, and way back when, that was a definite NO-NO.
I do thank ya'll for your time and information. Hopefully I have not offended anyone, and that we will all be friends in the fact that we all have passion for a great breed of dogs. I know that when I sit out back in the morning, having my Coca Cola and ciggie, and watch my beautiful pup play before we go off to work (yes, I take him with me each day), and I sit and look at him and I see the most awesome dog that has ever graced this earth, then I know I am proud to be owned by a Doberman!!!!
Back in those times, it was recommended that you not buy from a breeder before the pup was at least 9 months old. Most reputable (at least that is what I was told) breeders raised the pups until they were of an age to where the buyer could tell what the demeanor and look of the pup would be. When I bought my first pup, the breeder did not allow me to take him home with me until he was 3 months and that was only then because I was local to them. I visited him weekly or more often until I could bring him home. I then had to return each week for the breeder to access his progress, check on his ear cropping, etc. When I started breeding him a few years later, I was quite picky about who he bred to and turned down many offers (I am sure he was not happy about me doing the "picking", I think he would have been happy to SERVICE them all!!)
Anyway, I came here to this forum out of concern when I learned that my pup is a "z factor" pup. Yes, I am disappointed but I still love him dearly. We have just started obedience lessons, and he is doing well. I am glad that I am now aware that he is a "z factor" pup, and will do my best to make better informed decisions about his future. In the interest of bettering the breed, I am considering neuturing him at this point.
I do agree with the person that stated that lately the markings and colorings of the breed is not as prominent as it once seemed to be. I notice a lot of Dobies with very little rust on their chests, and poorly defined markings on their faces. Even my pup has black markings on his toes, and way back when, that was a definite NO-NO.
I do thank ya'll for your time and information. Hopefully I have not offended anyone, and that we will all be friends in the fact that we all have passion for a great breed of dogs. I know that when I sit out back in the morning, having my Coca Cola and ciggie, and watch my beautiful pup play before we go off to work (yes, I take him with me each day), and I sit and look at him and I see the most awesome dog that has ever graced this earth, then I know I am proud to be owned by a Doberman!!!!
I don't know quite how to answer your question. I bought my first Dobe in the early 70's. He was just to be a "pet". I lived in a small town and raised him as an indoor friend. Then my husband and I moved to New Orleans. My pup was about a year and a half at the time, and I knew that I could walk anywhere in that city with my beloved Dobie. I never had any fear with him at the end of his leash.
That silly pup went with us no matter where we moved. He was always my bestest friend. He was in the bedroom the morning my son was born, and from that moment on, Zak believed that my son was his!!! Silly Zak also protected me twice from "flashers"...and once from a "crazed religious zealot".
He also lied to me every night and promised that he would sleep at the very small corner of the bed...but I woke every morning to find him on my pillow, and stretched out the length of the bed, and yawning and stetching and pushing me and my hubby out the other side.
When he passed away, I vowed never to have another dog...especially one that meant so much to me. Now, with my youngest gone off to college, I thought I might give it another shot. And yes, I am making the same WRONG mistakes. Damien sleeps with me, he eats before me, and he goes to work with me. I know I am supposed to be the Alpha dog, but dang, I just guess I don't know how to be one.
Oh, well, I will get up tomorning, take my "z factor" pup with me to work, love him just like I did before I realized, and all will be wonderfilled in this world...The good news is that I will not be breeding him and proliferating a situation that should not be...
Thanks for helping me to come to that conclusion...
