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Why is raw feeding so hard for the neophyte to understand?

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(quote)In closing, dogs in the wild do eat raw meat, they also eat the hide, the feathers, the beaks, the feet, the eyeballs and the intestines. Dogs left to their own devices in the wild will also eat horse and cow manure while its still steaming, hell any type of manure and they will also eat horse hooves and other less than appetizing things too.(quote)

Trinity I had to laugh at this - I know what you really meant because my dogs LOVE HORSE poop. IT is a BIG treat to them - in their own minds. They will go outside and head straight for the horse pasture and hor'dourves!!! Yes they are WILD!!!
 
Trinity:
I appreciate your attention to details and to clarity... :)
I think you are looking at the whole 'dietary requirements' thing far to stringently... linearally perhaps.
I am going to refer you to the stuff I have read and see what you get out of it.
I would first like to say that I do not 'trust" Purina as far as I can throw them for alot of reasons. My political leanings are very very left wing and my beliefs about Corporations is very very left wing. They are not the 'good guys' they are not out to 'help us' and they are not 'looking out for dogs or animals that they make food for' .. period... they are looking how to make the most profit on the various items they sell and they like 'Big Tobacco' hire scientists to do research to find out how they can make the cheapest product possible with the cheapest ingredients known to man and how they can pump up the various 'nutritional requirements' using the cheapest ingredients.. that is why they use scientists.

I wilI will qoute Dr. Pitcairn DVM here:
"Although we have come to accept commercial foods as being normal or natural ways to feed animals (and indeed ourselves), in fact they are not. They are simply what we've gotten used to in the last few decades. But nothing that we can produce 'commercially' ever can ever rival those mysteriously complex foods manufactured for eons by nature itself."

Dr. Pollack DVM here:
"Poor nutrition is one of the major contributors to our pet's lower life expectancy. By feeding our pets most commercially available pet foods, we are unintentionally depriving these animals of important nutrients needed for sustaining the states of greater Wellness that their genetic material encodes. Survival is insured by commercial food; nothing more; not health, not the robustness for life."

Dr. Christna Chambreau DVM:

"Dogs and cats need raw meat to be really healthy and even the best processed foods cook their good ingredients, & most commercially available foods, even the expensive ones, use the cheapest ingredients (that means dead, diseased and decaying meat & by-products)."


Dr. Wendell Bellfield DVM except from larger article:
"we discovered the full extent of negative effects that commercial pet food has on animals. In February 1990, San Francisco Chronicle staff writer John Eckhouse went even further with an exposé entitled "How Dogs and Cats Get Recycled into Pet Food".
. :
shall I add more? as there are hundreds of these out there...
So now that we know where I am coming from regarding commercial industry and their approach to dog food, and you can take what I say as being a fanatic or you can say "yea, I agree and know that to be true.
If you disagree, good on ya and God bless ya!
:)
Now, as far as your understanding and clarity regarding how or where I got my information...
how about I just refer you to just a few of the myriads of websites and publications that I have read and keep reading for the past 20+ years and been getting my information from and you can decide for yourself how a 'raw feeder' comes up with the proper nutrition for their dogs? :)
fair enough?
http://www.totallyrawdogfood.com/ (just one source of the vet articles posted above)
http://www.rawlearning.com/ ( really outstanding research and thorough investigation and education here)
http://www.rawlearning.com/http://www.dogguide.net/raw-diet-basics.php
http://www.dogguide.net/raw-diet-basics.phphttp://www.katberard.com/hol_bonesandfood.htm

http://www.katberard.com/hol_bonesandfood.htmsome books I have copies of and have read from front to back many times:

Dr.Pitcairn's guide to Natural health in dogs (entire chapter and area devoted to raw feeding)

The Barf Diet by Dr. Ian Billinghurst (excellent!)
Three simple steps to healthy Pets by Lisa Newman ND phD Veterinary naturopath

As for what to feed and how to feed.. here is "totally rawd dog foods' sample menu for a raw feeder...
found here...
http://www.totallyrawdogfood.com/SampleMenu.aspx
 
I am glad you brought this up because I have some questions. I am interested in feeding raw, but don't know enough about it yet.

If my dog has been eating kibble, how do you transition to a raw diet? (he is on TOTW)

I am a vegetarian also, and I worry about meat because of bacteria, hormones, etc. This is probably a stupid question, but are there ever cases where dogs got sick from raw meat?

Is feeding Orijen close enough?

How much does a raw diet really cost?

What does the feeding routine look like? Do you have to feed outside?

I'm trying to get a good picture of what it's really like, and if it is something that I can manage to work into my routine. At this point, I feel like I am one of the only people I know who doesn't feed raw :confused:

This menu most closely resembles the way I was feeding Ladybug: http://leerburg.com/diet2.htm

I transitioned to raw pretty much (excuse the pun) cold turkey. I did have a mental problem with feeding bone-in chicken at first and started out by grinding whole chickens in a meat grinder, but I conquored my fears and started giving bone-in chicken.

From my research: Cases of dogs getting sick from raw meat are less common than dogs getting salmonella from kibble due to the more rapid digestion of raw animal parts.

Cost is completely dependent on your resources. I didn't have a chest freezer and shopped supermarket sales, but it would be cheaper if you could buy in bulk (like maybe cases from Sysco or some restaurant supply) and store your meats in a chest freezer, if you know a butcher, farmer, hunter... Raw feeding can be way cheaper (even close to free) than feeding premium kibble if you have the right resources.

I fed regular meals outdoors. Cleaning isn't really my favorite thing to do... And even if it's freezing cold out, a meal only takes 3 minutes to scarf down anyway.
 
Trinity:
Neophyte is not a derogatory term...
noun
1.​
a beginner or novice: He's a neophyte at chess.​
2.​
[SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana]Roman Catholic Church . a novice.​
​
​

3.​
a person newly converted to a belief​
4.​
Primitive Church . a person newly baptized.​
[/FONT][/SIZE]
I cannot be held accountable for people and their understanding of language and or lack of it... :)
sorry... but vocabulary is vocabulary!
accurate or and or proper use of it is appreciated in most circles.
 
I cannot be held accountable for people and their understanding of language and or lack of it... :)
sorry... but vocabulary is vocabulary!
accurate or and or proper use of it is appreciated in most circles.

These personal attack are not going to get you anywhere with your points. They're just going to make people dismiss you and anything you have to say as condescending. And for the record, those might be the definitions of neophyte but people associate the word with a negative connotation. Same could be said for your "God bless ya!" you keep throwing out there. The connotation you used that phrase in can be seen as derogatory and dismissive. In this case there was no misunderstanding or ignorance for people to be held accountable for, just you being condescending.
 
Trinity:
Neophyte is not a derogatory term...
noun

1.​
a beginner or novice: [COLOR=rgb(51,51,51)][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana]He's a neophyte at chess.​
​
​
​
[/COLOR]

2.​
[COLOR=rgb(51,51,51)][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=rgb(51,51,51)][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana]Roman Catholic Church . a novice.​
​
​
​
​
[/SIZE]​
[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]

3.​
a person newly converted to a belief​


4.​
[COLOR=rgb(51,51,51)][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=rgb(51,51,51)][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana]Primitive Church . a person newly baptized.​
​
​
​
​
[/SIZE]​
[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE]

I cannot be held accountable for people and their understanding of language and or lack of it... :)
sorry... but vocabulary is vocabulary!
accurate or and or proper use of it is appreciated in most circles.

Denissov43 - my name is Gail - and I never accused you of being derogatory, My problem with you using the term Neophyte to label those on the forum who did not "get it" with regard to raw feeding. Calling those that do not agree with the religion of Raf Feeding "begginners or novices" is for the most part just plain incorrect.

For instance, I definitely am not a Beginner nor a Novice! when it comes to dogs. I don't embrace feeding raw in my house - I too have done my research and I am comfortable with feeding a good quality dry food supplemented with vegetables, eggs, organ meats, all cooked.

To support that this way of feeding is indeed healthy and lends itsself to health and longevity, I am one of the few doberman breeders who has a dog with the DPCA Bred for Longevity Certification to the 2nd generation (BFL-2), I have quite a number of BFL-1's and Longevity Certs (lived to age 10) on many dogs I have bred and owned. I am getting ready to enter 11 new dogs into the Longevity certification program from my 1999 and 2000 litters.

So my objection was not that Neophyte was derogatory, but instead used incorrectly for most of the repliers. Some on this forum may be new canine caretakers, but not most.

thank you for the links - and I will read because I am always interested, but will you not share exactly what a weeks Raw Fed menu consists of and how you determine that what you feed meets the daily nutritional requirements of your dogs.

Again, Great conversation and debate!
 
I forgot to add a thought in my first post in this thread (keeping to the subject of why it's hard for a neophyte to understand raw feeding). In addition to all the bad advice available on the internet regarding the subject, sifting through the good information, and getting burried in books, there is also the most important force on a well-intentioned dog owner- the desire to be doing the right thing. This desire to do the right thing breeds an insecurity in the owner who is just starting to research this "new" way of feeding a dog and that insecurity makes it all that much more difficult to decide on a proper menu for the dog.

I put "new" in quotation marks because many raw feeders are just going back to pretty much the same diet dogs had before commercial foods were available and when dogs were not given the status they have now. People of my generation and maybe even the one before (starting with the baby boomers) have been brainwashed into thinking that the only way our dogs are going to get all the nutrition they need is by feeding manufactured kibble. In days gone by, dogs ate more like the raw fed dogs of today except their meals were not balanced every day. They might have gotten tripe one day, a few eggs the next, a deer carcass the next, scavenge some corn out of cow poop or blueberries off the bushes and so on... Many of today's raw feeders use supplements like fish oils, vitamin E, vitamin C, kelp powder, alfalfa powder, and more. I'd say today's raw fed dogs have it good. But at the same time, if an owner has found a kibble that keeps a dog in good form with good coat and stools, there's nothing wrong with that.
 
I have really stood amazed at the approach on this thread. First we are all slammed up agaisnt the wall and called stupid if we dont' buy into the raw philsophy and I think that has what has gotten everyones feathers ruffled.

It is already agreed that the studies are still not conclusive and we all know that what is wrong today by the NEW FADS is that they can be found to be wrong in 5 to 10 years and then they sit with egg on their face and have to start back peddling. But once something gets planted in someones head so strongly they usually never look for new studies. So if we can't even decide if they are carnivores or omnivores how can we make blanket statements???

There are preservatives in both people food and dog food and what we usually find out is that in tremendously unrealistist large amounts they are harmful. Well no joke.

I know folks who like raw and folks who like kibble and as long as we live in a free country I don't think it helps anyone's position to knock people over the head with their personal beliefs. There is a saying - "those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still."

The disucssion is good and we could all learn from it. I learn better if I am not slammed up against the wall and talked down to like a 3 year old.

I think if we really read what has been said and the way it was said, you will see why we were all immediatley put on the defensive.
 
I don't know if anyone was able to answer any of my questions, but if so, please just let me know.

I can't stand to read through all of this back and forth bickering over facts and opinions. Sorry but true :(
Good point. I am not a RAW feeder so can't answer your questions, but they are really good questions, and I would also like to hear answers from different people. :)
 
I have really stood amazed at the approach on this thread. First we are all slammed up agaisnt the wall and called stupid if we dont' buy into the raw philsophy and I think that has what has gotten everyones feathers ruffled.

It is already agreed that the studies are still not conclusive and we all know that what is wrong today by the NEW FADS is that they can be found to be wrong in 5 to 10 years and then they sit with egg on their face and have to start back peddling. But once something gets planted in someones head so strongly they usually never look for new studies. So if we can't even decide if they are carnivores or omnivores how can we make blanket statements???

There are preservatives in both people food and dog food and what we usually find out is that in tremendously unrealistist large amounts they are harmful. Well no joke.

I know folks who like raw and folks who like kibble and as long as we live in a free country I don't think it helps anyone's position to knock people over the head with their personal beliefs. There is a saying - "those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still."

The disucssion is good and we could all learn from it. I learn better if I am not slammed up against the wall and talked down to like a 3 year old.

I think if we really read what has been said and the way it was said, you will see why we were all immediatley put on the defensive.

Well said. This was my point in my original reply to this thread. :)
 
Ok, guys lets all step back and take a breath, I think we need to understand that this is a forum and we are supposed to be discussing a subject and not debating or arguing a side of it. Denissov, I am sure you did not mean to create the sense of superiority that was perceived in your post, but none the less, it is there, and while you are correct in your terms of the human language and its use, the fact that the word neophyte does in fact mean beginner, it is also used as a derogatory comment to insult someone, IE, calling someone a noob or nub, those both mean someone new to something, but are taking as insults. I hope this explains why your comments could be taken in a negative way.

I for one have fed raw and fed kibble, I fed raw for several years and I liked doing it, but I found that I did not have the time to prepare the food etc, so I went back to kibble, and yes I still feed some raw, such as some ground beef or tripe, and an occasional chicken quarter as a treat or to help put weight on a dog.
With that said, I disagree with you only on one of your statements, and that is the one where your saying that feeding raw is the only way to feed your dogs if you want healthy dogs, (yes I know thats not an exact quote but you get the idea), The fact is that if you feed kibble you get healthy dogs as well, and just because you supplement your kibble for your dogs thats great as well, after all most raw feeders also supplement, they do this by adding vitamins etc, or differing meats and organs, etc to the diet.

And as for the debate on carnivore omnivore, well, the fact is that as a behaviorist, I would have to say that dogs are indeed by nature a carnivore, meaning they stalk chase kill and eat their prey, but they are also secondarily an omnivore, in that they will eat veggies and other things as well, I know many dogs that raid the garden to eat veggies and eat grass, and yes its true that if you watch a dog eat an intact animal such as a rabbit ( i used to feed mine large feeding rabbits) they will tear the stomach open and eat the contents first, which are veggies. So to say that they are exclusively meat eaters is truly incorrect, but to say they arent meat eaters, is incorrect as well.

Also I would say that I understand Dennisovs distrust in the companies agenda etc, because yes they are there to make a profit, but so is everyone else, including the farming industry, hence why they feed cows corn, when it is NOT something they should eat, and why chicken is raised the way they are, and pumped full of steroids and antibiotics so they grow super fast and super large. Yet you would think this is so much better for our dogs than a processed kibble, well I dont know that it is that different. but hey thats just my opinion. but if you want to get a good idea of this, watch the movie Food Inc, it will open your eyes.

Now guys remember, discussion and helping others understand how to do something is great, but lets not get into debating and taking sides and trying to prove one of us is better than the other, instead lets answer questions, give feedback and thoughts and have a great forum for learning and sharing.

Hope it helps.
 
I am glad you brought this up because I have some questions. I am interested in feeding raw, but don't know enough about it yet.

If my dog has been eating kibble, how do you transition to a raw diet? (he is on TOTW) I didn't do any transition. The most important to fill your freezer with raw food for at least a week. I started with chicken only. It's easy digestible and most dogs love it. Then I added beef (chunks, organs, tripe).... then bison, duck, turkey, fish, etc.


I am a vegetarian also, and I worry about meat because of bacteria, hormones, etc. This is probably a stupid question, but are there ever cases where dogs got sick from raw meat? I have never heard of a dog that got sick of raw feeding. They may get diarrhea occasionally but it happens with dogs fed kibble too. Dogs can handle bacteria much better than we do... the great example is eating house poop ;)

Hormones? You will get more hormones feeding kibble for sure....


Is feeding Orijen close enough? That's excellent kibble but it has nothing to do with raw feeding.

How much does a raw diet really cost? It depends where you live and what meat you feed. I heard some people spend $50 for two dogs.
It costs $120 for me but my boy has mild food allergy. I buy more expensive meat like bison/beef chunks, etc. I easy can reduce costs to $80.

What does the feeding routine look like? Do you have to feed outside?
I buy 1lbs packages of raw food from a supplier once a month. They sell meat in chunks or ground, RMB, recreational bones, organs, tripe, ground meat mixed with veggies, etc.
Pros: The feeding is very simple. Defrost and fill a dog bowl.
Cons: Bloody and dirty sink and a dog bowl has to be washed after each feeding.
When I started I was buying meat on sales in the grocery store. Too much work for me! If you find a supplier it's much better.
You may join Yahoo raw feeders group and find co-op or a supplier in your area. Get ready before you start feeding raw. It may be frustrating at the beginning.

I'm trying to get a good picture of what it's really like, and if it is something that I can manage to work into my routine. At this point, I feel like I am one of the only people I know who doesn't feed raw :confused:
You are not the only one who doesn't feed raw :rofl: That's even funny!
 
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Now in looking at these pics, you can see my male dobermann, and in those pics you can plainly see the great musculature, and great coat he has, Those are not pics of an UNhealthy dog, but rather a healthy dog full of energy and drive.
 
Wow Pitts. Those are some great pictures of a great looking dog. However, get that t-shirt off. HA HA HA

:lmao: Welcome to the club here ROFL
Added: Jan 27, 2011 at 9:50 AM
so I would say that I understand Dennisovs distrust in the companies agenda etc, because yes they are there to make a profit, but so is everyone else, including the farming industry, hence why they feed cows corn, when it is NOT something they should eat, and why chicken is raised the way they are, and pumped full of steroids and antibiotics so they grow super fast and super large. Yet you would think this is so much better for our dogs than a processed kibble, well I dont know that it is that different. but hey thats just my opinion. but if you want to get a good idea of this, watch the movie Food Inc, it will open your eyes. Don't watch it, if you ever wanna eat a Steak again LOL

So agree with that Dale, in germany we just got a big Dioxin Pet-Food scandal, where they found it in the food they feed pigs, cows, chickens ect. Yeah raw is so much better :lmao:
 
Good points Dale!

What I have asked, several times and yes I am going to ask again. those that feed raw, how did you determine how many calories, protein/fat/minerals/calcium/phosphoros/fiber? are contained in the raw meat you are feeding?
I would imagine beef has more fat than chicken, but I could be wrong. How do you get the fiber dogs need?

I see from a post above about receiving 1 lb packages of meat RMB, do they tell you on average what the nutrional value each pagacke contains?

If you don't know that, how do you know how much to feed? to ensure your dog is getting their nutrional needs met?

Do you make changes based on age, or is raw feeding an "all life stages" way of feeding?

Do you supplement with PetTabs or another vitamin supplement to ensure they are getting what they need?

Just as Dale showed photos of a dobe who "LOOKS" the picture of health and condition, blood work could tell a different story.

For me I just could not afford to feed raw, I see some benefits, but I am not keen on buying grocery store meat for me to eat because of what it can legally have in it and still be sold to the public.

Now if I was living with my country cousins, where I could keep the freezer full of venison, wild turkey, rabbits and I could raise my own turkeys and chickens to feed us all that would be another thing all together.
 
Personally I never check for the product nutrition value for myself.
Our approach is simple not to buy junk food. We cook from scratch. So far we are healhty and fit and we are in our 50th.
Why would I check for meat nutrition value for Gino? He gets 70% muscle meat, 10% bone, 20% organs. My schedule is simple.
Morning:
Monday - beef
Tuesday - fish
Wednesday - bison
Thursday - duck
Friday - beef
Saturday - chicken
Sunday - bison

Everning:
Monday - ground bison tripe
Tuesday - ground beef organs (incl some muscle meat)
Wendsday - ground bison tails/heart/tonque
Thursday - ground bison tripe
Friday - ground beef organs (incl some muscle meat)
Saturday - ground bison tails/heart/tonque
Sunday - bison tripe

Also I add juiced green veggies: kale, brocolli, spinach, green beans. He gets supplements from Nzymes.

RMB are his third meal... and he is still hungry! :)

I will post his full blood test results at the end of the month.
 
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