When to introduce a prong collar?

[Ravenbird]

Do you have this? Amazon.com

Otherwise, since he seems to be allergy-prone, it could be the metal in the collar. Metal allergies are a thing...

Lots of times though, my dog will scratch it if I have it on for a long time. I think they just get tired of it being on, and can't really blame them, especially if I'm in a space where I made sure it is super snug. Lots of times, if I'm in a relaxed atmosphere but still want it on, I'll loosen it by releasing the martingale part, but it's still around the neck, just hanging low. I think your dog would be safe to do that with, he's not a terror, he just pulls on walks?

 

[remy]

Do you have this? Amazon.com

I don’t have that one, but I was looking into it incase the itching was due to the metal. I may give it a try.


He is kind of between sizes so I start with the prong high up, but I often have to adjust it since it tends to slip down. When I remove a link it’s super tight and I have a difficult time even getting it on, when I add the link it slips down. I wonder if it’s irritating him because it does move around.

If we are in a low distraction environment I will usually let it stay a little lower. However, if I know we will be around a lot of people or dogs, or if there are geese, rabbits, etc I’ll adjust it so it’s high up again. Basically the higher the prong is the more responsive he is to it.

I think your dog would be safe to do that with, he's not a terror, he just pulls on walks?

Generally yes, just for the pulling. He does have a fairly high prey drive and I’ve found it helps manage that a bit too. We tend to come across a lot of animals on our walks.

 

[Ravenbird]

You're on the right track. You could try the rubber tips first, a lot cheaper than a new collar.

 

[Two Dobes]

I was also going to suggest the Curogan collar I did have a girl that was sensitive to metal, and even had to start using Pyrex bowls for food and water....she could not tolerate the stainless. Curogan is nice, and looks good on reds and blacks

 

[MichiH]

Mine was by necessity by around 6 months old. I think your Remy is a better natured dog in general. Basically the fit needs to be snug and HIGH up on the neck, not hanging loose on the base of the neck. You need to make a decision on if you're hiking and just want "no pulling" or if you want a heel. I personally don't want a heel when hiking, because the hike is more for the dog than for me. But if we have to be on leash on a hike, I use a 10' leash and let my dog go wherever she wants as long as she never leans on the leash. The prong will self correct her and if she leans or pulls for any reason I just use a small leash pop and it backs her right up. Hiking to me is a break from training, so I don't try to "train", I just use some reminders.

If you are going to use the prong for heeling that's a different topic. These are life-saving collars for the human end of the leash with hard relentless pullers (ahem.). If you have anywhere you can hike off leash it's a great start before an intro to an e-collar. E-collars are just a prong collar with no leash needed.

Herm Sprenger makes the prong in black, which is what I chose.

Pepper has been great walking on her leash. She now has taken to running after birds. If she’s on 30ft lead in a field she’s having fun and then darts to a bird. Therefore, she’s yanking herself often hitting the end of the lead. Otherwise she’s fine on her martingale and isn’t pulling often. If she pulls I correct her and she comes back to me. When it’s a bird she doesn’t give a crap and goes for it. I’m worried about her neck with the martingale.

I’m thinking I need a prong asap. Thoughts?

 

[LifeofRubie]

Pepper has been great walking on her leash. She now has taken to running after birds. If she’s on 30ft lead in a field she’s having fun and then darts to a bird. Therefore, she’s yanking herself often hitting the end of the lead. Otherwise she’s fine on her martingale and isn’t pulling often. If she pulls I correct her and she comes back to me. When it’s a bird she doesn’t give a crap and goes for it. I’m worried about her neck with the martingale.

I’m thinking I need a prong asap. Thoughts?

You should not use a prong collar with a long lead (or retractable lead or anything that gives them time to start moving fast with an abrupt stop at the end) just so we're clear!

It didn't sound like that was your intent but always bears mentioning

 

[Ravenbird]

If she’s on 30ft lead in a field she’s having fun and then darts to a bird. Therefore, she’s yanking herself often hitting the end of the lead. Otherwise she’s fine

Start working on recalls. Chasing birds is fine for fun off leash, but you can't keep up with a full out running Dobie, so she will hit the end with no warning. Not sure if you don't want her chasing birds or don't want her hitting the end of the leash without warning or ...? What is the goal here? Where are you letting her do this? How is her recall? If you can recall her to you off the birds (meaning no self-correction hitting the end) then just recall her. If you love watching her chase birds as a harmless thing of fun for Pepper, but you are in public area that you can't be off leash then you have to figure out what you want to happen. Prong collars are for correction and self correction when doing the wrong thing. If chasing birds is something you want to stop, then correction is in order, but that's a discussion in itself. If you like her to run free & chase birds, but can't keep up when she goes fast, that's another discussion. What exactly is the problem and what kind of solution do you want?

 

[MichiH]

You should not use a prong collar with a long lead (or retractable lead or anything that gives them time to start moving fast with an abrupt stop at the end) just so we're clear!

Yes, on her 6ft when we are out. I don’t even know if I can use a long line anymore.

Start working on recalls. Chasing birds is fine for fun off leash, but you can't keep up with a full out running Dobie, so she will hit the end with no warning. Not sure if you don't want her chasing birds or don't want her hitting the end of the leash without warning or ...? What is the goal here? Where are you letting her do this? How is her recall? If you can recall her to you off the birds (meaning no self-correction hitting the end) then just recall her. If you love watching her chase birds as a harmless thing of fun for Pepper, but you are in public area that you can't be off leash then you have to figure out what you want to happen. Prong collars are for correction and self correction when doing the wrong thing. If chasing birds is something you want to stop, then correction is in order, but that's a discussion in itself. If you like her to run free & chase birds, but can't keep up when she goes fast, that's another discussion. What exactly is the problem and what kind of solution do you want?

Valid points I did not think about at all. Id like her to chase the birds she enjoys it and won’t be getting them. She’s doing it when we are on her long line and then smacks the end and doesn’t listen to my “careful”. Typically she’ll listen to “careful”, run in a circle and back to/or around me.

What I’m worried about is her hitting the end of the line how, bad is that for her? Will she learn to stop?

I don’t have too much land at home for her to run and when she’s in the yard she’s off leash and fine to run. Recall she’s doing really well, now off leash we aren’t there yet. I don’t trust her 100 percent. She does respond well on her long line or 6 ft to recall always, unless it’s birds.

As for the prong - I don’t want to stop her bird chasing even on her 6 ft. Needs to be a time and place so that’s something I need to figure out with her. I can try to run as fast as I can with her on her long line to chase birds, just can’t do that over and over lol.

She isn’t pulling too much otherwise now as a teen maybe she will? But I do have to work with her and that’s fine I enjoy it and she is thriving.

 

[Ravenbird]

Yeah, this one you need to think through and go from there. The thing about the long line is that pretty soon she can hit the end of it and you'll be the one hurt or rope-burned hands or caught unawares and accidentally let go. I always forget about my city friends here not having open space to let their puppies run free. Because Dobermans are so velcro, Asha would never run off and was always happy to come back and we have all this space to hike with near zero chance of meeting another human or dog. We were off leash by 4 months, so maybe some of the city dwellers can give you better input. I can't remember when I started the e-collar but it was more to keep Asha from bashing Reckless than for recall. And of course a safety net for any emergency recall. I know I love to watch Asha chase the ravens. Her head is always to the sky and she'll bark at one in a tree until it flies then run as fast as she can after it.

 

[MichiH]

Yeah, this one you need to think through and go from there. The thing about the long line is that pretty soon she can hit the end of it and you'll be the one hurt or rope-burned hands or caught unawares and accidentally let go. I always forget about my city friends here not having open space to let their puppies run free. Because Dobermans are so velcro, Asha would never run off and was always happy to come back and we have all this space to hike with near zero chance of meeting another human or dog. We were off leash by 4 months, so maybe some of the city dwellers can give you better input. I can't remember when I started the e-collar but it was more to keep Asha from bashing Reckless than for recall. And of course a safety net for any emergency recall. I know I love to watch Asha chase the ravens. Her head is always to the sky and she'll bark at one in a tree until it flies then run as fast as she can after it.

Thank you for your advice and mentioning things I did not think of.
I have a decent yard she can play in, but not go off and rip around like open space. We have a lot of open space in our neighborhood which we walk to, again cars are close by. We are also lucky to be by a ton of state parks we can walk to and drive if we want, but we do see people and dogs at times.
Maybe it’s the e collar, I’ll have to train her on. It would also be others I wouldn’t trust with their dogs or cars. Therefore, for her safety as she is responsive to recall and commands.
I work recall with her all through the day and she does well inside and outside. Yes, the damn long line has given me a permanent dry right hand lol.

I want her to be a dog and enjoys herself, but of course safety is number one. You’re correct a long line as bigger Dobergirl won’t work she’ll take me out quickly.

Thank you! My brain is working through this.

 

[MichiH]

I’ve been using the prong on Pepper since around 6 months. We use it only for walks and that’s it. Recently, I noticed scabs under her chin/ on neck area, they healed up. I switched to her martingale which went poorly for a few days she knew and pulled her ass off. I did buy the rubber prong covers to help ease the prong ends on her neck. Now I have noticed prong areas on her underside of her neck that are losing hair. What am I doing wrong? She pulls often - it’s gotten worse- maybe her heat? We will stop and I’ll wait for her to turn around or I correct her.
We walk about 1.5 hours a day and that’s when she wears her prong.
I don’t want her to have bald spots on her neck as she seems fine otherwise.

 

[Ddski5]

I’ve been using the prong on Pepper since around 6 months. We use it only for walks and that’s it. Recently, I noticed scabs under her chin/ on neck area, they healed up.

How old is Pepper now?

No disrespect intended here..but you may need to reevaluate how you are using the prong collar. If you have been using it for a while now, then she should not be pulling with a prong collar on. If she is still continually pulling through the collar creating wounds/scabs, then she does not respect it and/or you are using it incorrectly for the Doberman you have.

A couple of ways that I know of how to use the prong collar:
1. Put it on and allow the Doberman to pull it to pinch, thus them causing the discomfort.
2. The Doberman pulling and not reacting to the initial pinch and continuing to run through it. Then the handler gives a strong pull of the leash to illicit a much smarter collar pinch.

#1 is Freyja
#2 was Ragnar

Either way, once I established the prong collar is on, they respected it and the consequences of not being loose leash.

She may still be in her rambunctious stage. She understands the prong collar and respects it but she frolics around and forgets the rules of loose leash walking/playing.

Be aware that it’s not fair to run and play crazily with her and then suddenly be subjected to prong collar correction. Age, training and experience should fix mishaps in this area.

Mine know that when the prong goes on, it’s time to be obedient and serious- that’s the expectation and they know it.

But to address the initial concern, I don’t foresee why she has scabs/wounds just from walking. Hell, I use to hang Ragnar 1ft off the ground and rarely got wounds/scabs. She must be continually pulling and maintaining the pinch. If this continues, then she will become desensitized to the initial discomfort of the pinch and be unreactive until a smarter pinch occurs. Then that presents that one is not correcting the unwanted behavior once it occurs. If she pulls once, then give a good strong pull to make her stay in range and cue her to stay in the range. You may be allowing her to trespass in the outer ranges and expecting her to adhere to the rules too far away….bring her in where your presence is felt more.

Haha
Smarter- is an older term…back in the Andy Griffin days with Opie saying- ouch that really really smarts- or that really smarted. Kinda a hurt but a stinging quick negative stimulus.

 

[MichiH]

No, I appreciate it. I had her walking on a flat with no issues and then the prong she was fine. Now she’s pulling all the time. We are away for the week and she’s been extra pulling. I think the new environment is also causing the pulling too and I have let her trespass more often because all I am doing is correcting her non stop.

I do let her hit the end of the 6ft and I stop walking to correct her, she turns around and walks normal briefly then does it again. She only has her prong on for her walks and we don’t play then it comes off and she can play on her flat.

I then will give her a pull with a command to correct her and she walks normal then starts pulling again.

She did wear it in the water a few weeks ago not attached to a leash, her flat was on so she could play. Not sure if that caused the scabs.

Now she has marks from the prong with hair coming out.

She doesn’t like when I stop and she hits the end and she will return as she knows she can’t proceed. Maybe this is her age and her heat causing her to be worse? She is sniffing like crazy and acting extra and that makes me think maybe this is heat related?

I really don’t want her desensitized to it and I am also afraid to correct her too hard, always worry I am going to hurt her when I do it. Maybe I’m not doing it hard enough to get her to stop pulling?

 

[MichiH]

How old is Pepper now?

No disrespect intended here..but you may need to reevaluate how you are using the prong collar. If you have been using it for a while now, then she should not be pulling with a prong collar on. If she is still continually pulling through the collar creating wounds/scabs, then she does not respect it and/or you are using it incorrectly for the Doberman you have.

A couple of ways that I know of how to use the prong collar:
1. Put it on and allow the Doberman to pull it to pinch, thus them causing the discomfort.
2. The Doberman pulling and not reacting to the initial pinch and continuing to run through it. Then the handler gives a strong pull of the leash to illicit a much smarter collar pinch.

#1 is Freyja
#2 was Ragnar

Either way, once I established the prong collar is on, they respected it and the consequences of not being loose leash.

She may still be in her rambunctious stage. She understands the prong collar and respects it but she frolics around and forgets the rules of loose leash walking/playing.

Be aware that it’s not fair to run and play crazily with her and then suddenly be subjected to prong collar correction. Age, training and experience should fix mishaps in this area.

Mine know that when the prong goes on, it’s time to be obedient and serious- that’s the expectation and they know it.

But to address the initial concern, I don’t foresee why she has scabs/wounds just from walking. Hell, I use to hang Ragnar 1ft off the ground and rarely got wounds/scabs. She must be continually pulling and maintaining the pinch. If this continues, then she will become desensitized to the initial discomfort of the pinch and be unreactive until a smarter pinch occurs. Then that presents that one is not correcting the unwanted behavior once it occurs. If she pulls once, then give a good strong pull to make her stay in range and cue her to stay in the range. You may be allowing her to trespass in the outer ranges and expecting her to adhere to the rules too far away….bring her in where your presence is felt more.

Haha
Smarter- is an older term…back in the Andy Griffin days with Opie saying- ouch that really really smarts- or that really smarted. Kinda a hurt but a stinging quick negative stimulus.

10 months

 

[Cferg]

I really don’t want her desensitized to it and I am also afraid to correct her too hard, always worry I am going to hurt her when I do it. Maybe I’m not doing it hard enough to get her to stop pulling?

Reading through your posts it doesn’t sound like you’re giving a correction, more of just nagging her. I’d incorporate some positive reinforcement to get her exactly where you want her. And correct her for not staying in that position.

 

[Ravenbird]

I really don’t want her desensitized to it and I am also afraid to correct her too hard, always worry I am going to hurt her when I do it. Maybe I’m not doing it hard enough to get her to stop pulling?

She is already desensitized to it because it mostly is only uncomfortable when she does the pulling, so she just fixes that herself and then forgets and it is uncomfortable again and she fixes it herself again. This if fine with a more sensitive dog, they learn. The more forward dogs don't really care because going fast or leaning or whatever is more fun than the pinch is bad. You aren't part of her picture, she's not thinking "whoa, I'm about to get corrected, I'd better slow down". That's my thought. You are not going to hurt her and you aren't going to hurt her feelings. She will only learn to respect you and listen a little harder at what you want and how to avoid correction. For a dog to learn, a correction must be consistent (repeat when the dog repeats the offending behavior) and the dog must understand what to do to prevent it from happening.

The other thing about your initial question about the hair loss, was in another thread recently and @Cferg and I showed photos with correct placement: up high, just under the ears and very snug. This collar should never be worn loose, those tips will rub up & down or back and forth as the dog moves. Do you have a photo of Pepper wearing it on a walk?

 

[MichiH]

She is already desensitized to it because it mostly is only uncomfortable when she does the pulling, so she just fixes that herself and then forgets and it is uncomfortable again and she fixes it herself again. This if fine with a more sensitive dog, they learn. The more forward dogs don't really care because going fast or leaning or whatever is more fun than the pinch is bad. You aren't part of her picture, she's not thinking "whoa, I'm about to get corrected, I'd better slow down". That's my thought. You are not going to hurt her and you aren't going to hurt her feelings. She will only learn to respect you and listen a little harder at what you want and how to avoid correction. For a dog to learn, a correction must be consistent (repeat when the dog repeats the offending behavior) and the dog must understand what to do to prevent it from happening.

The other thing about your initial question about the hair loss, was in another thread recently and @Cferg and I showed photos with correct placement: up high, just under the ears and very snug. This collar should never be worn loose, those tips will rub up & down or back and forth as the dog moves. Do you have a photo of Pepper wearing it on a walk?

Ok thank you this is super helpful! Tonight I corrected her every move and she did slow down and walk properly. I just need to stay on it with her and being in a new place this week didn’t help made her worse.

We were fine walking before we went away, even so I tried her flat collar a few walks because she’d been doing so well.

I will attach a photo and the collar does look low. I attach it under her ears up high yet it seems so tight. It then works itself down as we walk and I move it back up over and over. If I take a prong out it will be so tight, is that how it should be?

I’ve never been able to get it to stay up high it always moves itself down her neck.

 

[MichiH]

And it looks low

 

[MichiH]

Reading through your posts it doesn’t sound like you’re giving a correction, more of just nagging her. I’d incorporate some positive reinforcement to get her exactly where you want her. And correct her for not staying in that position.

Thank you. Worked on it tonight with her corrected her and praised her with words. She did better.
I’ll start taking her kibble again on walks kind of phased that out not long ago.

 

[Ravenbird]

And it looks low

It's not too bad. I'm not sure why you should be getting hair rubbed out. Except there are dogs with allergies to metals. HS makes a non-allergenic one. Haha, it's only money.

I attach it under her ears up high yet it seems so tight. It then works itself down as we walk and I move it back up over and over. If I take a prong out it will be so tight,

I have exactly the same problem. And if I'm training, not just walking, she gets amped up for the ball and her neck swells up and it's really tight. But I've never seen any hair loss or skin marks. 4+ years now, almost daily she wears it training or if we go to town. If we hike I use the e-collar because I'm off leash.