What the Bite?!

[StateOfMine]

So this whole time I was very convinced Flint had no bite in him at all outside of tug. He's all pet and show line, even if he is roughly half euro.

Well I now have an appointment mid July to get him assessed for potential bite work and here is why: I was busy cleaning the house and it was one of those days I was zipping around everywhere, fully focused and motivated. Naturally, this is also the exact times my husband wants to be an annoying pain in my ass and hates productivity. He gives me a hug and won't let go. He does this to annoy me for his amusement sometimes. He starts poking at me because he knows I'm ticklish.

In a higher than normal pitch, I threaten him jokingly that I will get my dog to bite him. Flint has never seriously put his teeth on anyone, so my husband laughs it off and continues to be irritating. I speak, jokingly, "Flint! Help!". Flint sprinted across the living room, launched himself onto the back of the couch right next to my husband, and nails him right on the shoulder. There was very minor skin breakage and no blood... but  wow.

It was enough that we both stopped and stared at him, completely taken aback. Flint positioned himself on the back of the couch between us and just stared at my husband. He wasn't punished, partially because we were surprised that it happened and partially because my husband didn't want to discourage his attempts to protect me if I ask him to.

This might be a fluke, maybe we misinterpreted this as play, but this has never happened before. The initial assessment for personal protection potential is free and the trainer is within driving distance, so I thought, why not?
Any thoughts on this?

 

[BGpa]

FAFO?

 

[StateOfMine]

FAFO?

That's my plan lol

 

[Oh Little Oji]

My thought is I am very surprised! I would be happy if I were you, and I would also get him assessed by the protection trainer guy like you are going to.

Can you tell if it was just a nip with the front teeth?

My first Dobe would only nip with the incisors, and I guess since I didn't socialize him when he was young, he would default to nipping people if I didn't take charge of the situation. I did, at one point, take him to be assessed. He assessed favorably, but I'm not sure if the guy really just told me what I wanted to hear. I certainly could make that Dobe suspicious just by breathing differently, and I could absolutely put him on guard and make him direct his lunging, barking etc. at a person. That is what we did at the protection trainers'. I don't think he gave the opportunity to bite even a rag or anything though. That is normal for a first session. I would expect the same from your trainer.

 

[StateOfMine]

My thought is I am very surprised! I would be happy if I were you, and I would also get him assessed by the protection trainer guy like you are going to.

Can you tell if it was just a nip with the front teeth?

My first Dobe would only nip with the incisors, and I guess since I didn't socialize him when he was young, he would default to nipping people if I didn't take charge of the situation. I did, at one point, take him to be assessed. He assessed favorably, but I'm not sure if the guy really just told me what I wanted to hear. I certainly could make that Dobe suspicious just by breathing differently, and I could absolutely put him on guard and make him direct his lunging, barking etc. at a person. That is what we did at the protection trainers'. I don't think he gave the opportunity to bite even a rag or anything though. That is normal for a first session. I would expect the same from your trainer.

The trainer I contacted was very honest I believe, because he said he'd be willing to assess Flint but "most dobermans do not have the ability to be personal protection dogs" was what he said, and I am aware of this painful fact also.

I wasn't looking at Flint when he made contact and Matt wasn't either. We were absolutely not ready for that.

 

[LucyXIII]

The trainer I contacted was very honest I believe, because he said he'd be willing to assess Flint but "most dobermans do not have the ability to be personal protection dogs" was what he said, and I am aware of this painful fact also.

My friends ask me if he's all super badass. Um, no. He just looks the part, like an actor who plays an action hero, rather than a member of special forces.

 

[JanS]

most dobermans do not have the ability to be personal protection dogs" was what he said

Boy I think that's the only time Elroy would go after someone - if they looked like a threat to me.

 

[Aaron56]

The trainer I contacted was very honest I believe, because he said he'd be willing to assess Flint but "most dobermans do not have the ability to be personal protection dogs" was what he said, and I am aware of this painful fact also.

I wasn't looking at Flint when he made contact and Matt wasn't either. We were absolutely not ready for that.

Let me guess - A Petco trainer?


X wife of mine had a Doberman that she was the primary care giver for in our home. There were more than a few times that woman got pissy and started yelling at me for dumb shit reasons and most every time that dog would instantly be by her side and growling in my direction. Zero doubt in my mind that if she had pointed and gave the command that the dog would have been on my ass in a heartbeat and I would have very likely took a good bit of damage. No way in hell I could have 'run away' from it or any crap like that.

She was the one that fed that dog, took care of all it's grooming / cleaning needs, took care of every visit to the Vet, took care or most of the potty breaks, slept with it when it was a pup (part of potty training it), did the majority of its training, spent the most time with it of anyone else in our home... Yeah, they bonded more strongly than that dog did with anyone else in the family.

After I put that devil woman out for good I went and got a pair of girls from the same breeder and raised them myself for just in case she ever tried to come back...

 

[LifeofRubie]

@StateOfMine can you remind me how old Flint is?

I'm very excited to hear how his assessment goes!

 

[StateOfMine]

Let me guess - A Petco trainer?


X wife of mine had a Doberman that she was the primary care giver for in our home. There were more than a few times that woman got pissy and started yelling at me for dumb shit reasons and most every time that dog would instantly be by her side and growling in my direction. Zero doubt in my mind that if she had pointed and gave the command that the dog would have been on my ass in a heartbeat and I would have very likely took a good bit of damage. No way in hell I could have 'run away' from it or any crap like that.

She was the one that fed that dog, took care of all it's grooming / cleaning needs, took care of every visit to the Vet, took care or most of the potty breaks, slept with it when it was a pup (part of potty training it), did the majority of its training, spent the most time with it of anyone else in our home... Yeah, they bonded more strongly than that dog did with anyone else in the family.

After I put that devil woman out for good I went and got a pair of girls from the same breeder and raised them myself for just in case she ever tried to come back...

Wow! Quite a story!

No this guy is not from Petco. He has his own business training dogs to be personal protection dogs, bite sports, etc. He's not the only one I have heard say that dobermans aren't cut out for personal protection anymore. Another trainer all over YouTube and one that placed #8 in IGP World Championship last year says the same thing.

It does appear to be true sadly. Even 100% European working line dobes apparently rarely make the cut and are nervous wrecks. Time to breed some working line malinois into some of these lines and breed dobers back in maybe.

@StateOfMine can you remind me how old Flint is?

I'm very excited to hear how his assessment goes!

Flint will be 2 years old on Wednesday!

 

[BGpa]

"Another trainer all over YouTube and one that placed #8 in IGP World Championship last year says the same thing."

Do you recall the trainer name?
I notice Ivan Balabanov has a stable of Mals but no dobes. Same as Mike Ellis- rarely see dobes featured in his train the trainer videos.

There was a working line competitor asking at the other forum for posted videos of dobes competing...in the US and no one could share any, other than refer her back to "working-dog" site, which is all german digs iirc.

I guess there hasn't been of a wide interest to sustain enough critical mass of interest in dobe working line competition in US as dobes dont make it to the top in AWDF or UDC competitions, so if you wanna win its GSDs and Mals?

There are small tight clubs scattered around- its just not as widespread as AKC conformation shows.

Reminds me of the book "Bowling Alone".

 

[StateOfMine]

"Another trainer all over YouTube and one that placed #8 in IGP World Championship last year says the same thing."

Do you recall the trainer name?
I notice Ivan Balabanov has a stable of Mals but no dobes. Same as Mike Ellis- rarely see dobes featured in his train the trainer videos.

There was a working line competitor asking at the other forum for posted videos of dobes competing...in the US and no one could share any, other than refer her back to "working-dog" site, which is all german digs iirc.

I guess there hasn't been enough critical mass of interest as dobes dont make it to the top in AWDF or UDC competitions, so if you wanna win its GSDs and Mals?

The trainer's name is Hazaar (Haz) Othman. Shield K9 is his business and his YouTube channel name. He's got an Instagram and has published a book too. "No Nonsense Dog Training".

But yeah basically dobermans I guess "cannot hang" in IGP and you'll likely never see them on a podium. The euro dobermans die too young and are still nervous wrecks, the American dobermans pee themselves when adversity happens, etc.

I know there are exceptions to the rule but that is the truth it seems, sadly enough. Our breed doesn't have the means to fulfill their original purpose, so other breeds are taking their jobs and dobermans are going extinct. For a number of reasons, not just their lack of workability. I wish it wasn't true but it does seem that way.

Haz trained 1 doberman that I have seen and I don't think even Haz was happy with it, but he did sell it as a protection dog eventually. His shepherds on the other hand were sold almost as fast as they were listed.

 

[BGpa]

Thanks! Very interesting. I sense that working dobes may be more valuable developed and marketed now more to custom placements vs show dog looks winning. This would be comparable to working sheep dogs- they dont have to be pretty, but win on how well they work as a ream....

A role that combines the original bred to purpose as man protection with all around utility. Intelligent enough to think for itself but biddable and obedient once trained/maintained.

I'm aware of one 3 gen dobe breeder/trainer who sells executive protection package dogs. These are family guardians that go at "six figures" for the dog plus combined training.

Another example would be Svallin in MT but those are Dutchy mixes.

Dobes do great at SAR, nose work, obedience and rally I hear.

Personally I'm more interested in the idea of a "functional dog" or "Total Doberman" built up out of a long longevity, healthy history, with stable temperament for family guardian.

Safe around kids and wont rip the mailman's throat out, can go camping and hiking off leash without running deer...

Unicorn dobe?

 

[StateOfMine]

Thanks! Very interesting. I sense that dobes may be marketed now more to custom placements vs show winning.

I'm aware of one 3 gen dobe breeder/trainer who sells executive protection package dogs. These are family guardians that go at "six figures" for the dog plus combined training.

Another example would be Svallin in MT but those are Dutchy mixes.

Dobes do great at SAR, nose work, obedience and rally I hear.

Personally I'm more interested in the "functional dog" or Total Doberman built up out of a long longevity, healthy history, with stable temperament for family guardian. Safe around kids and wont rip the mailman's throat out, can go camping and hiking off leash without running deer...

Unicorn dobe?

Oh Flint is an awesome family dog. He loves kids (and is careful around them) he loves other dogs and he pushes toys at guests when they come in. As far as nosework... that is no joke. I can't hide  anything from Flint. I took a toy away from him that he was starting to expose the fluff of and hid it on top of the fridge when he went outside for a potty.

He came in 30 minutes later and his nose went to the air immediately. He walked right up to the fridge, sat down and whined. It's what he does when his ball rolls under the couch or wherever and he needs help getting it. He knew where that toy was within 15 seconds of walking into the house.

Who is this breeder/trainer that sells those dogs? Are they all dobermans?

 

[Oh Little Oji]

But yeah basically dobermans I guess "cannot hang" in IGP and you'll likely never see them on a podium. The euro dobermans die too young and are still nervous wrecks, the American dobermans pee themselves when adversity happens, etc.

I know there are exceptions to the rule but that is the truth it seems, sadly enough. Our breed doesn't have the means to fulfill their original purpose, so other breeds are taking their jobs and dobermans are going extinct. For a number of reasons, not just their lack of workability. I wish it wasn't true but it does seem that way.

Are you aware of some of the serious working Dobe breeders in the U.S.? They can definitely hang! My last two Dobes were from such breeders.

 

[StateOfMine]

Are you aware of some of the serious working Dobe breeders in the U.S.? They can definitely hang! My last two Dobes were from such breeders.

I'd love to know who they are! I'm surrounded by shepherd elitists maybe. After years of hearing them talk and seeing that only shepherds make podiums in bite sports maybe there are things I'm not considering.

Have these breeders won serious competitions with their dobes? I would actually really like to see!

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I'd love to know who they are! I'm surrounded by shepherd elitists maybe. After years of hearing them talk and seeing that only shepherds make podiums in bite sports maybe there are things I'm not considering.

Have these breeders won serious competitions with their dobes? I would actually really like to see!

Yes. Shutzhund / IPO / IGP III titles on the sire or dam, and usually a lesser working title on the other parent (usually the way it works). The sire of my Dobe, two Dobes ago, was at the time of the breeding an 11-time Schutzhund III and set to become the world tracking champion.

These breeders train, work and title their own Dobes in the field.

The reason given by my previous breeder for ceasing to crop and dock was in case one of their pups went on to international competition (although that breeder is also given over to just liking the look of it and I surmise not having to mess with the crop process). I almost resigned myself to accepting an uncropped Dobe, but all of the buyers of the male pups wanted cropping so they offered it to us. The breeder wanted to keep a female from the litter, so none of the females could be cropped. I am using gender-neutral (cringe) pronouns be cause I have always avoided nanmng on the open forum my breeders so that I could feel free to talk about the problems as well as the good.

I'll direct message you.

 

[GennyB]

I'd love to know who they are!

I know one. Brandi Williams of Masaya Dobermans. She's the breeder of @Doberman Gang Blaze. I have seen several of her dogs at trials and they are definitely up for the job.

Some dobes will do okay but to truly succeed they are usually bred by a working breeder and raised as a working dog. Owners build drive and train in the sport from the time they are young pups.

I say if Flint enjoys the sport and you can put the money and dedication in, go for it. He doesn't have to be a super star. The training and what you will both learn about each other is priceless.

 

[BGpa]

Are you aware of some of the serious working Dobe breeders in the U.S.? They can definitely hang! My last two Dobes were from such breeders.

Are these working line breeders taking dogs to UDC or AWDF trials to "proof" by working competition?

My challenge (and I've heard similar from a couple of GSD buyers) is there is not much going on out West.

So some travel involved to just go hang out at a competition to learn the scene, get a sense of how things work, find winning breeders, mentors or trainers...

Very interesting!

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Are these working line breeders taking dogs to UDC or AWDF trials to "proof" by working competition?

My challenge (and I've heard similar from a couple of GSD buyers) is there is not much going on out West.

So some travel involved to just go hang out at a competition to learn the scene, get a sense of how things work, find winning breeders, mentors or trainers...

Very interesting!

I don't get into what particular trials they do. I just know that, as you alluded to, there is a lot of travel involved even in training with a working club; and that is what always prevented me from doing it, except for when there was a startup club that would meet about 15 miles from my house.