Weight loss and food

[EricA]

Went to a different Vet to weigh the girls today and -

They finally get a treat with their kibble.

Granted that this was a different scale at a different Vet but...

I weighed them myself and made SURE to hit the zero button first each time so pretty sure that because I got a lower number that this is a more 'accurate' scale than that one that the other Vet lady used.

Patience clocked in at 90.4 and Dystopia was 'only' at 92.8lbs.

So, Yeah. My girls have worked hard and shed some extra lbs and they are getting a treat tonight!
4 sardines per can (that they have to share) so that makes for 2 each with their kibble.

A whopping 2 sardines each mixed with their kibble.

The normal kibble portion that my girls gets is NOT near what the bag label suggests that they be fed -

(have been feeding at what they call 60lb numbers for a good while)



(Notice how activity level is NOT mentioned in that feeding schedule printed on the bag)

These pictures are very telling if you look close and really compare all of the numbers.

Same height -

Same age, same sex, same parents, but -

Notice the necks and how the collars fit? One is obviously looser compared to the other but both girls are about the same weight and about the same height so.........

(both collars the same and set to the same number of inches)

Pretty sure they both need some sardines!




Dobermans are NOT stupid. If I have 4 fishies to start out with and put 1.5 in one bowl and 2.5 in the other that is going to be a problem. Dobes can and DO count stuff.

 

[Ravenbird]

Congratulations for the girls loosing a couple of pounds! Those Sardines also come packed in water so you can save a few calories that way. You can always just cut back more on the kibble to help with weight loss.

 

[EricA]

Congratulations for the girls loosing a couple of pounds! Those Sardines also come packed in water so you can save a few calories that way. You can always just cut back more on the kibble to help with weight loss.

I actually broke out a real kitchen measuring cup last night and double checked how much the kibble scoop dispenses just to make sure.

They get just a tiny, tiny bit over 3 cups measured (not enough over to call it 3 1/4 cups) once per day and not really much of anything for treats in-between (because of their weight). No table scraps or any of that either.

That tiny pile of kibble in the bowls makes me feel like I am starving them.

Usually if I am adding anything to the kibble I will go 'easy' on the kibble scoop and it ends up slightly less than 3 cups. (most common additions are green beans, carrots, @ 1/2 cup each) I think the carrots add 20 calories to each bowl and the green beans 30? Sardine can does not say anything about calories. (which is not very cool)

Appreciate any tips you may have here with respect to how much more if any I could safely cut back.

 

[Rits]

Cut back on kibble and increase exercise. Sure way to get weight loss results. I never trust the bag. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I looked at the recommendations lol. Look at the dog before you. Is there a well defined waist, a well defined tuck? No neck wrinkles or extra cushion at the base of the tail? Can I easily feel the last few ribs without pushing my fingers firmly into the skin?

How tall are your girls? I'm guessing if they are above 26" that they should both be in the upper 70s/low 80s at most.

When Ripley is post heat, she balloons up. I cut back 1/4c, each feeding if needed. Increase exercise. She loses it pretty quickly... granted she never gets a chance to gain more than a lb or two before I'm already adjusting her feed. I don't know how many kcal/cup your feed is but Ripley would gain weight fairly fast and heavily if I fed her 3 1/3c on her food. Definitely wouldn't lose any.

Being the sardines are in oil, I imagine they are heavier in calories than those with water so I'd go with sardines in water like @Ravenbird mentioned!

 

[Ravenbird]

Thanks for starting a new thread @Rits! So many threads on poor eaters or needing to put on weight, but not many on helping take a few pounds off.

@EricA - you can go the the website for nutrition info: Great Value Sardines in Oil, 3.75 oz - Walmart.com - just below this is "similar items" and it gives the info on the sardines in water.

I think sardines are an excellent source of nutrition and I feed a can (in water) at least once or twice a week. These all have too much salt for regular daily feeding and I find the ones in water/no salt are way more expensive...

What @Rits says above, I never look at the bag for telling me what to feed. Too skinny? Feed more. Too fat? Feed less. You have to remember that even if the 3 cups is maintaining what you've got without adding weight, unless you feed less, they will never lose any weight. If you feel bad feeding less there's always the option of more exercise to burn the calories off, the best option would be to cut back a little on ration and add a lot in exercise. Ball chasing in an open field for just 5 minutes will burn lots of calories - way more than a 30 minute on-leash walk.

I also know you said you're dealing with thyroid issues and that can sure complicate things, but again, to help your dogs deal with thyroid problems, slim & trim will only benefit them. Just like people, it's always easier said than done, but you seem like you are knowledgable and wanting to watch their weight.

 

[Kaiser2016]

Agree with all the advice. It would be 'easiest' to increase their exercise. We feed Kaiser a different amount of food almost everyday because of the variation in exercise. He can go as low as 1.5 lbs of raw food to 3 lbs on a very active day. Since he also gets a lot of snacks during the day, we also adjust according to how he looks.

We give sardines too, it's the best way to get that super shiny coat. The version you feed also comes in water, but the sodium level is still quite high, so we spread out a can across the week. Great Value Sardines in Water, 3.75 oz - Walmart.com

Another idea is to soak the kibble so that you can feed less but keep it more filling.

 

[EricA]

@EricA - you can go the the website for nutrition info: Great Value Sardines in Oil, 3.75 oz - Walmart.com - just below this is "similar items" and it gives the info on the sardines in water.

I think sardines are an excellent source of nutrition and I feed a can (in water) at least once or twice a week. These all have too much salt for regular daily feeding and I find the ones in water/no salt are way more expensive...

Very much appreciate that info there! At least now I can actually KNOW what the cal content on those jokers are!! (counting that stuff best I can)

Also much appreciate the info on the salt cause when possible I try to avoid stuff that has that added in there as well (they don't NEED more). Will look for some no salt sardines next time to compare prices. If it is not a lot more will definitely try to go that route.

Like you, that is a once a week thing here (them splitting a can though because of their weight and all )


Many thanks Rits -
Current food says 403 kcal / cup. Guess I am going to cut them back to 2 3/4 cups for a while and see how that works out. Patience should be ok but Dystopia is not going to be a happy camper.

If for some reason I should disappear from the forum for more than a few weeks - Somebody call 911 for a welfare check to make sure Dystopia did not put ME in her tummy!



Very much agree with what Ravenbird said about the differences between running chasing a ball and going for walks as far as burning calories is concerned. The local park here (5 minutes away) is strict on their leash rules (which is good) but not so good for them running around. The no leash dog park is more like 30 minutes away but WAY better for them as far as running goes.

DID take them for a good long walk around the neighborhood today but that did not do much for them like running would have done in a much shorter time. A few years back (when they were a lot smaller) used to take them on fairly regular walks around the neighborhood but had to stop due to idiots. The kind of idiots that will intentionally let their dog out when they see you coming with yours just so they can see what happens.

Ran into no idiots today and only encountered 3 separate unleashed (but in their own yard) dogs as we walked about. Fortunately my girls give not a crap when they see random dogs out in public places. If whatever dog is not acting aggressive or running AT them in a threatening kind of way - they don't even notice any more really. Every one of the unleashed dogs we saw today had an actual 'owner' outside with them. (which is the way it ought to be) The one lady saw us coming and took her fido inside the house, the next owner we saw attached the lead / tie out thing to theirs and the last owner stopped what they were doing and came and and stood closer to their dog and got its attention to make sure it stayed in their yard and did not act stupid. Counting my blessing that all of that worked out well. Usually it does not. Always seems to be that one 'special' dog owner that just wants to do stupid stuff but fortunately not today.

I did clean out our back yard (fallen branches and such) a couple of weeks ago and it is fenced and 'safe' for me to play with them in but - Once again other owners will screw things up - I got to figure out some sort of treatment for the grass to make darn sure any fleas will DIE instantly if they land in it. Damn next door neighbors dogs gave mine fleas last year thanks to them not eradicating those things properly once they knew their dogs were all crawling with them. Those fleas migrated right over here, jumped on my girls and attempted to set up a new home. Decontamination was a major pain in the butt and not cheap. Imagine thinking you got all the fleas gone from your dogs and from inside your home only to find out that every time you take them outside that 'thanks to your neighbor not taking care of their problem properly' you just pick up new ones and bring them inside every time you let your dogs out to play in your own yard or go potty. Really not keen on dumping extra poisons on (or in) my girls for feas if I can help it. A permethrin dip here and there does not bother me so much but some of those other products I am not so comfortable with.

Pain in the butt when you have multiple dogs.

Just about the time you get to where you are telling the one dog 'Hey, you got to sit there and wear that for 5 minutes with no shaking it off allowed' -

The other will peek around the corner and see what you just did to her sister and then promptly get the heck out of dodge!

I think I made it 16 or 17 something years worth of having Dobermans before the day came and I was needing to even think about things like flea eradication and flea prevention. Thank you neighbor!

I literally just got both of the girls trained properly to shake off nasty / wet stuff pretty much on cue and then out of nowhere have to train them to sit there with that wet flea poison crap all over them and NOT shake it off for however long.

The 'wait' command is my best friend for sure after all of that garbage. When you know darn well the dog really wants to do a particular thing but - 'wait'.


Was discussing them burning more calories with my mom and she suggested building them some sort of obstacles to get them doing here and there while we are at work. There are a few different places there already where they can do different height jumping stuff and Patience is all about that sort of game but her sister (chunk) - not so much. That poor girl struggles with jumps that he sister has no issues with. Or some obstacle games for the back yard here... Would do me good to figure out what I could put together for cheap that might make for some good calorie burning games. Wish I had a stairway here I could get them going up and down as a game in exchange for a slice of carrot here or there.

 

[Ravenbird]

If you are a talented Do-it-yourself kinda person, there's this: Slat mill build
Expensive to buy, not cheap to build, but that would be the tops. On the flat exercise would be best to start out until the girls start getting fit. Stairs and jumping would be hard on their joints before they get muscle tone.

 

[Rits]

I think I made it 16 or 17 something years worth of having Dobermans before the day came and I was needing to even think about things like flea eradication and flea prevention. Thank you neighbor!

Same thing here! Never had issues with fleas until the neighbors dogs dropped some off at our place after running over here into our yard. I'd start a new thread for the flea issue if you are interested, maybe some suggestions could be made of what works for people.

Could always look into dog joring where you wear a belt hooked to the girls and they wear a proper harness. Adds a little resistance work. I personally would be careful about any fetch running at their current weight. A lot more stress on the joints right now, one wrong twist to try and catch the ball with the extra strain could tear ligaments. I do think slow and steady will be the way to go right now until they lose some more and gain more muscle tone. Then you can start adding in shorter "sprint" workouts.

 

[EricA]

If you are a talented Do-it-yourself kinda person, there's this: Slat mill build
Expensive to buy, not cheap to build, but that would be the tops. On the flat exercise would be best to start out until the girls start getting fit. Stairs and jumping would be hard on their joints before they get muscle tone.

I could appreciate all of that work and effort more but for the actual treadmill in the pictures right next to it. (my butt would be using the actual people treadmill first)



(that member is clearly talented)

 

[EricA]

Same thing here! Never had issues with fleas until the neighbors dogs dropped some off at our place after running over here into our yard. I'd start a new thread for the flea issue if you are interested, maybe some suggestions could be made of what works for people.

Could always look into dog joring where you wear a belt hooked to the girls and they wear a proper harness. Adds a little resistance work. I personally would be careful about any fetch running at their current weight. A lot more stress on the joints right now, one wrong twist to try and catch the ball with the extra strain could tear ligaments. I do think slow and steady will be the way to go right now until they lose some more and gain more muscle tone. Then you can start adding in shorter "sprint" workouts.

Appreciate those words of caution. I don't need or want any torn ligaments any time soon. Very good point you made there for sure.

I read that comment and instantly said to myself 'That nice lady may have just saved me a PILE of misfortune and pain'.

I was recently gifted a hand me down (but in great condition) harness from our neighbor at work that he used with his former greyhounds. Will definitely look into that.

 

[Ravenbird]

(my butt would be using the actual people treadmill first)

For you or the dogs? LOL. Just a word of caution, human treadmills are hard on dogs. I don't quite understand it, but the way the dog moves with four feet doesn't match the movement of how it's made for human/two legged creatures. Anyway, something about the slat mill that the dog controls the speed just seems like an ideal exercise machine. Like the advice we give to puppy owners, if the dog is not being forced and can slow down or rest between running or zoomies, they usually won't over do.

 

[strykerdobe]

@EricA

We feed Sardines in Water, drain water and serve them.
I would get the Sardines in water. Really don't like the Soybean Oil or Smoke Flavor. Also says may contain traces of Wheat and Soy.
Would never feed anything with Wheat or Soy.

First 3 things never feed in pet foods are Corn, Wheat or Soy. Lots of these crops are GMO and sprayed with Roundup.

 

[EricA]

For you or the dogs? LOL. Just a word of caution, human treadmills are hard on dogs. I don't quite understand it, but the way the dog moves with four feet doesn't match the movement of how it's made for human/two legged creatures.

Will never come a day when I get on a treadmill. Heck no! I am literally that guy that the chinese 'all you can eat' buffet people run off because he ate too much of their food - and still didn't / can't gain any weight! Same weight now that I was a 'few' decades ago and it aint a lot!


I got pictures somewhere that an old GF sent me of her and her fido at a doggie rehab clinic with - Human Treadmills. (among other things like hydrotherapy stuff, etc.)

Until I personally read several studies by more than one well established author (peer reviewed studies) that can prove to me how bad they are - then no.

Going to have to read that for myself and be convinced before I buy into it.

 

[EricA]

@EricA



First 3 things never feed in pet foods are Corn, Wheat or Soy. Lots of these crops are GMO and sprayed with Roundup.

Corn is a banned substance in this home and always will be. Learned about those doggie allergies the hard way and will never do it again.

(with the exception of On The Border tortilla chips which I keep out of reach of any doggies - life would not be worth living without Panchos cheese dip and On The Border tortilla chips)

 

[EricA]

Will try to update with a new weight soon from the same scale at the same clinic.

Been pretty good about cutting out the extras and reduced their kibble food by about a cup less each daily. Treats have been few and far between here lately as well. Other than their kibble portions the only thing extra they got today was a single slice of sandwich bread each. (split into pieces so as to 'stretch it out')



This thread started on March 24 and it is April 12th now so we are coming up on 3 weeks since that last (the 14th is 3 weeks exactly) weigh in.

Would like to see this girl get down to 80 and see what that looks like on her. (losing about 13lbs from her Mar 24th check weigh in)
Dystopia -

Patience -

Will be happy to get Patience back to 85ish. (she has less flab and more muscle mass) (about 5 to 6lbs less than her last check in)

Plan to take the advice Rits kindly gave and not worry so much about trying to work them more just now before reducing the calories and shedding a few lbs first. Hate to admit it but Dystopia really was having 'difficulties' doing simple jumps (up and down) that her sister was not. That crap is not funny to be seeing. Kick myself in the butt for letting it get that bad and really can see how trying to push her too fast and too soon might not be a good idea.

Pretty darn sure Patience is the one in the middle of that picture.

 

[EricA]

Got the girls weighed first thing this morning before heading to work. Today makes for exactly 3 weeks of the serious dieting. As a reminder - When last checked (3 weeks ago at Vet clinic 'B') Patience clocked in at 90.4 and Dystopia was 'only' at 92.8lbs.

Stopped at a different clinic closer to the house (calling that Vet clinic 'A') just out of convenience and did Patience first.
(Keep in mind now they have done this junk a bazillion times and know the routine - When I call the name, point and say up I get a perfect sit and stay with the ass planted in the center of the scale and no squirming around...)

Scale said 86 even that first time for Patience. Did not believe it so made her get off, hit the zero button and waited then did her again. Got 89.7, made her get down again, rezeroed and got 89.3lbs. No squirming, ass in same exact spot on the pad each time but still could not get close to a similar reading twice in a row. That scale is junk.

Went and weighed Dystopia anyway because we were there (same zeroing done and same perfect sit with no squirming with ass planted on the circle in the middle of the pad). Got 88lbs first time and then 88.7lbs.

No freakin way my 'fat girl' is now 'lighter' than her sister. Scale is clearly broken and in need of repair or replacement.

Bummed out now because I wasted all of that time and still didn't get a good measurement I went from there to Vet clinic 'B' (the one we were at 3 weeks ago). They were nice enough this time to let me in the back where they keep their scale so I could do it myself (while they supervised) and Dystopia clocked in at 93lbs. (Perfect sit and stay / middle of the pad / zero the scale first / no moving around and all of that garbage)

Had her get down and called Patience to come get up and got a perfect 93lbs again.

No damn way they are the same. I am not blind and the difference is noticeable. Dystopia is always 5 to 10lbs heavier.
I 'thought' I had been paying pretty darn good attention to 'who was who' when switching dogs but figured one may have been screwing with me and came when her sisters name was called instead of her own (littermates will do crap like that sometimes ESPECIALLY if they think they can cheat their sibling out of something good) so I started over and did it all from the beginning.

Got 93.5 for Dystopia and 93 for Patience.

There is no freaking way they gained weight. NOT POSSIBLE. I reduced their calories, their activity levels are normal for them, their thyroid levels just got tested and are right where they should be, and they are under my supervision at all times. I KNOW what they have been eating and am positive there has not been any unauthorized snacking going on. That and the fact that they should not be pegging that close to the same numbers pretty much convinces me that THAT scale is broke as well.

There is no way they went from the scales at the one place and then straight to the scales at the other clinic and 'gained' weight. If anything they should have weighed LESS at the second clinic because they both went pee outside before we went in!


Plan to continue on with the reduced kibble and no treats thing and seek out a better scale to help me chart their progress. Obviously the scales I have been checking them on are garbage and the clinics that use them do not really care much about accuracy. You would think that if a Vet assistant or employee saw you weight a dog 3 times in a row and get 3 different numbers that they would perhaps think about pulling out some check weights and doing some testing and calibrating but no... That is not happening. Would bet money that neither of those Vet clinics even HAD any check weights for their scales or anyone there ever read the manual for their scales and thought about anything like 'calibration'. Those cheap, digital, common Vet clinic scales seem to be geared more towards speed, and ease of use even if the thing on them is moving around a bit more than they are concerned with respect to accuracy.

All of that up and down stuff on the scales this morning really whipped Dystopia in the butt and wore her out and it took her several hours to recover. If someone had kicked down the door to the shop and came on in with ill intentions Dystopia would have been worthless.

There is no way my 'back up' Doberman is 93lbs.

 

[Rits]

Numbers are numbers. Just keep at it and look at the dog in front of you! Feel her ribs every day and see how much pressure you have to apply to feel them. Wrinkles over the shoulders? Fat pads above the tail head? Watch those disappear. They won't get too skinny lol so don't worry about the numbers.