Urinary Incontinence?

[Kswoodssue]

Hey all! Long time since I have been on. Sasha is great! One issue, and a question for @Ddski5. Sasha has been on Proin 74 mg daily for about a month. It was working for her, now she is getting a random drip. Is Freyja still on it? Any issues and what dosage? I hate having her on anything, but… Hope all is well. Thanks in advance!

 

[Ddski5]

@Kswoodssue
Good morning! Hope all is well.

If Sasha is on 74mg then I am guessing she is on the extended release? Yours is extended release whereas mine is in chewables.





Freyja was on:






Now on:




Freyja was on 75mg twice a day- one 75 in a.m. and another 75 at dinner. From my research, this is on the really high side of dosage for her 83lbs. Don’t necessary like this because it’s a stimulant/decongestant- but what are you gonna do? she knows she is wetting up the place and she is highly embarrassed and gets upset.

To be honest, it’s a confusing issue because bottle dosage says 75mgs given twice a day. It can be misconstrued to break the 75mg in half and give one half in morn and other half in pm but that would be giving 75mg once a day…shit, idk. I see where folks are doing it both ways. My vet script says 75mg twice a day.

I am not a big “going to the Vet” person but went for a checkup recently because of a lipoma on front chest. I asked him about decreasing the dosage to 37.5mg (the tablet is scored and is easily broken in half) in morning and continuing the 75mg in evening. I reiterated that two 75’s is on the high dose and I want to see if we can titer it down. He said that’s a great idea- leave the higher dose in the evenings because if they leak, it will be in the evenings/night. One is they are more relaxed and settling down and another is their bladder fills up when sleeping and do not go outside as much.

So we started breaking the morning one in half and then giving an entire 75mg in the evenings. All has been good with no issues. You bring this subject up and I go to the cabinet to make sure I give you the correct Proin and dosage because I think yours is the extended release since it’s 74mg. I look and see that mine is now 50mg. The vet techs must have inadvertently given me the 50s instead of the 75s. So for the last month, she is actually getting 25mg in the morning and 50mg in the evening. That’s a pretty good reduction. Even though the vet office screwed up (me too for not noticing), this is an absolute good thing. Her meds are reduced and she still has no leakage.

So we started on a higher dose and are now on a lower dose. Research tells me that some owners start on 75 and are now on a lower dose of 25. It all depends on what works for that particular Doberman.

I think you start at the dose that you can observe there is no more dripping, stabilize and settle them on this and then experiment on bringing them down in dosage. I know with Freyja I was unhappy about the high dosage and after the initial 2weeks, I tried to lower it and she started dripping repeatedly so I had to go back up. I forgot about it for a while (6-9months) and now look to see that it’s reduced from 75 to 50mgs.

You cannot break or cut ER extended release pills so you may ask if you can change to the chewable tablets that way you can break apart and increase or decrease in 25mg increments.

So sorry I am getting to you late. I started this at 5:00 a.m this morning but got a spanking new intern that has taken all of my time.

Please, if you have any questions- don’t hesitate to ask.

 

[Kswoodssue]

@Kswoodssue
Good morning! Hope all is well.

If Sasha is on 74mg then I am guessing she is on the extended release? Yours is extended release whereas mine is in chewables.

View attachment 160243



Freyja was on:

View attachment 160255




Now on:

View attachment 160256


Freyja was on 75mg twice a day- one 75 in a.m. and another 75 at dinner. From my research, this is on the really high side of dosage for her 83lbs. Don’t necessary like this because it’s a stimulant/decongestant- but what are you gonna do? she knows she is wetting up the place and she is highly embarrassed and gets upset.

To be honest, it’s a confusing issue because bottle dosage says 75mgs given twice a day. It can be misconstrued to break the 75mg in half and give one half in morn and other half in pm but that would be giving 75mg once a day…shit, idk. I see where folks are doing it both ways. My vet script says 75mg twice a day.

I am not a big “going to the Vet” person but went for a checkup recently because of a lipoma on front chest. I asked him about decreasing the dosage to 37.5mg (the tablet is scored and is easily broken in half) in morning and continuing the 75mg in evening. I reiterated that two 75’s is on the high dose and I want to see if we can titer it down. He said that’s a great idea- leave the higher dose in the evenings because if they leak, it will be in the evenings/night. One is they are more relaxed and settling down and another is their bladder fills up when sleeping and do not go outside as much.

So we started breaking the morning one in half and then giving an entire 75mg in the evenings. All has been good with no issues. You bring this subject up and I go to the cabinet to make sure I give you the correct Proin and dosage because I think yours is the extended release since it’s 74mg. I look and see that mine is now 50mg. The vet techs must have inadvertently given me the 50s instead of the 75s. So for the last month, she is actually getting 25mg in the morning and 50mg in the evening. That’s a pretty good reduction. Even though the vet office screwed up (me too for not noticing), this is an absolute good thing. Her meds are reduced and she still has no leakage.

So we started on a higher dose and are now on a lower dose. Research tells me that some owners start on 75 and are now on a lower dose of 25. It all depends on what works for that particular Doberman.

I think you start at the dose that you can observe there is no more dripping, stabilize and settle them on this and then experiment on bringing them down in dosage. I know with Freyja I was unhappy about the high dosage and after the initial 2weeks, I tried to lower it and she started dripping repeatedly so I had to go back up. I forgot about it for a while (6-9months) and now look to see that it’s reduced from 75 to 50mgs.

You cannot break or cut ER extended release pills so you may ask if you can change to the chewable tablets that way you can break apart and increase or decrease in 25mg increments.

So sorry I am getting to you late. I started this at 5:00 a.m this morning but got a spanking new intern that has taken all of my time.

Please, if you have any questions- don’t hesitate to ask.

Thanks so much! It is the ER. I was hesitant to even start it, but like you said, it is distressing to them also. Poor thing was trying to clean up after herself. Other than that, we are good. Sasha is so very special.

 

[Ddski5]

Thanks so much! It is the ER. I was hesitant to even start it, but like you said, it is distressing to them also. Poor thing was trying to clean up after herself. Other than that, we are good. Sasha is so very special.

I am so late to this…I don’t know why but sometimes my phone doesn’t update that I have replies. Sorry.

How is she doing now?

 

[Rits]

Sharing this study. Super simple to participate in and help Doberman health (and potentially other breeds too) from anywhere.

I am a veterinary geneticist at UW-Madison, and we are running a study seeking to understand the genetic basis of acquired urinary incontinence in Doberman Pinschers. This study is funded by the AKC Canine Health Foundation.
We are looking for spayed female Dobermans. If they have developed urinary incontinence, we would like them at any age. If they do not have a history of urinary incontinence, we would like them to have been spayed for at least 4 years. Participation involves a DNA sample (via blood or saliva) and completing a short questionnaire about their dog’s medical history. Do you have any dogs that may fit this criteria?
Best wishes,
Dr. Lauren Baker [email protected]
--
Lauren Baker, MS, DVM, PhD
Assistant Professor – Companion and Working Animal Biology
Department of Animal and Dairy Sciences
University of Wisconsin-Madison

 

[JanS]

I'm really glad they're starting to do studies on this and hopefully start solving the puzzle with some scientific proof.

 

[MyBuddy]

You know that brings to mind something, and I hope I remember this right. The day I had eight of my horse girlfriends over we talked about spaying neutering and incontinence. And the one girl who I always say is our 'holistic lady' and the one who researches everything, said that she actually took one of her dogs out of state to get it spayed. It was the closest vet she can find that did this procedure.

If I get this right, they left the ovaries intact and she said doing that avoided nicking the sphincter muscle. I thought that was interesting. Mainly about the sphincter muscle! Is that what they end up doing when they are spaying a dog?

I do recall my neighbor next door mentioning something very similar a year ago when we were discussing this. And I mentioned it I believe in this thread. She said she thought some vets were just in too much of a hurry and not careful enough and they accidentally nick their sphincter muscle. I know our discussion did talk about the odd coincidence of it happening a lot in Dobermans. But I wonder if this nicking is the culprit? It's an interesting thought.

 

[BGpa]

Sharing this study. Super simple to participate in and help Doberman health (and potentially other breeds too) from anywhere.

Bookmarked for reference.
This ought to be very interesting, and useful.

This was one of the considerations in neuter discussion on the frontiers study saying wait no earlier than "2 years" on dobe females vs trad vet 12 mos sooner for avoiding early pyo.

Frontiers | Assisting decision-making on age of neutering for German Short/Wirehaired Pointer, Mastiff, Newfoundland, Rhodesian Ridgeback, Siberian Husky: associated joint disorders, cancers, and urinary incontinence

Spaying female and castrating male dogs, hereinafter referred to as neutering, became a U.S. convention for dogs' first year. Research on 35 breeds of dogs r...

www.frontiersin.org

Recall reading about above average spay incontinence in dobes and wondered if it was a physical thing given high waist or a breed (inherited) trait.

Just also curious- for tge cognoscenti:
is this a "soon after spay onset" thing, or delayed pattern?

 

[JanS]

is this a "soon after spay onset" thing, or delayed pattern?

From what I understand it doesn't usually happen until about 2 years after the spay, give or take.

If I get this right, they left the ovaries intact and she said doing that avoided nicking the sphincter muscle.

That's an OSS (ovary sparing spay) and there are mixed results with it. I think @GennyB had it done with Rumor and @Rits parents had it done on their Golden.

Olive had the traditional laser spay not quite 1.5 years ago and so far, so good KOW.

 

[DobieDesire]

I've had a female Doberman, lived to 12, spayed, never had incontinence. A female BC/QH mix, lived to 12, spayed, never had incontinence. A female Chesapeake, lived to 12, spayed, never had incontinence. Weird, I just realized they all lived to 12. The female I have now is 10, she's a BC, spayed, never had incontinence.
It'll be interesting, as in the future I hope to get a female Doberman, when my BC has gone to the Rainbow Bridge. I'll probably get an adult, don't need a puppy.