Ultimate Doberman?

Ddski5

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I thought this was very interesting….

 
Not for sure if that Facebook link will go through…a guy is looking for the ultimate Doberman and he seems legit. Definitely above my pay grade with all the titling info given.
 
Interesting read but I agree that they should look for an older pup who has already started proving itself when they want all that.
 
Though I am far from familiar with this subject, I do recognize some names in there:
Von Shwarz
Masaya
Sant Kreal

I see Benchmark Dobermans in there numerous times…
 
KNPV (Royal Dutch Police Dog Association) training is a dog sport and certification program originating in the Netherlands, designed to train civilian-owned dogs in skills that can be used by the Dutch police. While the KNPV system produces dogs capable of performing police tasks, they generally require additional training to be fully equipped for service. The KNPV program has two main levels: PH-1 (the most common title in North America) and PH-2, with PH-2 being a more challenging and prestigious level.

Here's a more detailed look at KNPV training:

Purpose and Evolution:
  • KNPV was initially created as a certification program for civilian-trained dogs, with the goal of making them available for Dutch police work.
  • Over time, KNPV has also become a popular dog sport, with many participants focusing on the sport itself rather than service dog preparation.
Key Aspects of Training:
  • KNPV training involves various exercises, including tracking, object guarding, and bite work.

  • The training is structured around a series of tests and examinations, with different levels of certification available.

  • In some cases, the exercises in KNPV training closely resemble those used in service dog training.

  • KNPV-trained dogs still require additional training beyond the KNPV program to be fully prepared for police work.
Training Levels and Certification:
  • PH-1: The more common KNPV title in North America, representing a significant level of training.

  • PH-2: The highest KNPV level, involving more difficult and stringent testing components.

  • Certificates are awarded based on the dog's score in the KNPV examinations.

  • Certificates A are good for one year, and honor certificates are awarded for higher scores.
Important Considerations:
  • While KNPV training produces dogs with skills relevant to police work, it is not a direct pathway to service dog employment.

  • Additional training is needed to prepare KNPV-trained dogs for the specific demands of police work.

  • The KNPV program also emphasizes the development of a strong bond between the dog and handler.
 
Most of the answers are spot on. If someone wants a true working dog I'd start with those that are recommended, especially the ones suggested multiple times. Sant Kreal was laughed at and for what this trainer wanted I wouldn't recommend SK either. They are show bred dogs and in my dogs pedigree of the SK dog lines only one had an IGP3, so no, not known for real work at all.

I agree with the comments about health testing too: Do all the health tests, but research the pedigrees and COD's above all. I'm sick at heart of all the health problems in this breed and to find a pedigree with more than 50% living to 10 or over is vitally important. And titles. You want a dog that can go to the top, that pedigree should be full of dogs that proved they could, whether it's conformation or agility or bite sports, you need to find those titles in the first 3 generations if not more. Insanely rare to find a KNPV Doberman.

Thanks for sharing @Ddski5 - fun stuff!
 
Do all the health tests, but research the pedigrees and COD's above all. I'm sick at heart of all the health problems in this breed and to find a pedigree with more than 50% living to 10 or over is vitally important.
I so agree with this!
 
Who actually reports how long their dog lived to anyone?
Breeders and/or owners should, but there is no requirement to. With Dobequest you have to be a member (or know a member to do it for you) to enter information about a dog. But there are other pedigree websites like it which take information. It's not a perfect system, because breeders aren't required to list date and cause of death of their dogs and if it's a genetic disease, then they stand to lose business or have to let go of certain lines that they've invested in. On the other hand, reputable breeders will make it public and also notify owners that have bought puppies from that line to let them know. Depending on the COD it may not make that much difference, but when you see patterns emerging then it's extremely helpful to breeders (and buyers doing research). Death due to cancer at age 10 is not the same as death due to cancer at age 4.
 
I find a number of things very interesting in that:
1. There are not really any typical snarky Facebook remarks which tells me these folk are serious with their comments and information. No Mal or GS slam talk.
2. The fellow who started the post has my respect because he said if the pup he found did not turn into the desired Doberman, he would keep and find a role/place for him.
3. This guy seems to be a head hunter trainer for someone who desires the ultimate trained Doberman- I am sure that’s gonna all cost a pretty penny right there.
4. Masaya Dobermans- isn’t that the breeder that DobermanGang studded out Blaze to?? and got pups…
5. There is a legit consensus that the Doberman breed is not what it use to be. @Ravenbird has said this multiple times.

All the more awesome to have an obedient disciplined Doberman at your side imo.
 
I also think it’s pretty cool that this kind of information helps to add to my knowledge and experience with Dobermans. I have come to learn that there are different personalities and attitudes of Dobermans…Some are quarterbacks, some are lineman, some are defensive linebackers, etc…they can be totally different in many ways.

Why is it said in there many times that the Dobermans he is looking for doesn’t exist?it’s a unicorn. Sure the breed has been watered down in many ways with disease ridden issues. But still there are so many factors, so many unique characteristics, so many finite things…nature vs nurture…not all of them can be the all pro quarterback who can handle everything and win the game.

So the Doberman was the shit back in the 70’s and 80’s? That’s when things started to go down for the breed? Soaring popularity- Increase of back yard breeding- show breeders started breeding away from old school sharp Doberman characteristics? The inter breeding and lack of genetic breeding accountability?

So the Malinois is pretty much the popular beast right now? Do you see the same direction the Mal is going as did the Doberman? I know Mals are monsters and requires just as much attention as a Doberman- are there Mal show lines? Are Mals being bred down to harness and control their crazy ass antics so they can participate better in the show ring?
 
Probably breeders that want folks to know they have longevity in their lines. Not too many out there though.

If my 'contract' for the last one that passed away here the breeder spelled out having access to the body so that cause of death could be determined.

Looked good in the contract (made it look like they gave a shit about that sort of stuff) but the reality is not the same.

There are no 'guarantees' and stuff happens.

In her defense - There is no testing on this planet that could have been done on the parent dogs that could or would have predicted the ailments that affected my girls as they aged.

Parent dogs never had any allergy issues, never any thyroid issues, etc. but the girls I raised set new records for all of that stuff! :)
 
Sure the breed has been watered down in many ways with disease ridden issues. But still there are so many factors, so many unique characteristics, so many finite things…nature vs nurture…not all of them can be the all pro quarterback who can handle everything and win the game.

You may be correct that things have been watered down but also consider how many people have Dobermans that never even TRY to work or use their dogs for anything other than 'another pet'.

If the owner never does stuff with the dog then the dog is never going to done stuff. :)
 
With Dobequest you have to be a member (or know a member to do it for you) to enter information about a dog.
Did they change the way they do things? It used to be that breeders reported the cod to dobequest and a recording secretary (can't remember the title of the person) entered it on the site.
4. Masaya Dobermans- isn’t that the breeder that DobermanGang studded out Blaze to?? and got pups…
Yes. Blaze is a Masaya pup also.
So the Doberman was the shit back in the 70’s and 80’s? That’s when things started to go down for the breed? Soaring popularity- Increase of back yard breeding- show breeders started breeding away from old school sharp Doberman characteristics?
All of the above plus I would add lack of education on all breeders part. A lot of the breeders I have talked to over the years don't understand genetics as much as they think they do.

So the Malinois is pretty much the popular beast right now? Do you see the same direction the Mal is going as did the Doberman? I know Mals are monsters and requires just as much attention as a Doberman- are there Mal show lines? Are Mals being bred down to harness and control their crazy ass antics so they can participate better in the show ring?
They are VERY popular in protection sports. They are also the choice for police work and after seeing them work I completely understand why.
There are show lines and they are watered down so a handler can handle them. You don't see many at shows because most are still bred to work.
And they WORK!
 
Did they change the way they do things? It used to be that breeders reported the cod to dobequest and a recording secretary (can't remember the title of the person) entered it on the site.
I don't actually know the details. I just know I couldn't put my dogs pedigree on Dobequest, I had to ask my breeder to do that. And every so often I ask her to update the titles. I don't know if she enters that info herself or submits it to be entered.

show breeders started breeding away from old school sharp Doberman characteristics?
That started in the 40's I think. After the war, the dog entered a new popularity phase - I can't recall which dog, but multiple champion, bit a judge and I think the breeders realized they couldn't sell pups if they didn't damp down the sharpness. Follow the money, as always. The next surge of popularity was the 70's & 80's with movies and TV, and also the testing for Von Williebrands where unfortunately, breeders trying to be vigilant, quit using carriers and we lost a shit ton of diversity. At the same time BYB's were having a hey-day with puppies selling like hot cakes. Again, so they could be family dogs (more buyers) they specialized in pet quality. They weren't show quality and couldn't work.

So the Malinois is pretty much the popular beast right now? Do you see the same direction the Mal is going as did the Doberman? I know Mals are monsters and requires just as much attention as a Doberman- are there Mal show lines? Are Mals being bred down to harness and control their crazy ass antics so they can participate better in the show ring?
As soon as AKC took in Mals, the division started. You see all these working Mals, they weigh about 65 lbs. tight as a drum, athletic enough to climb trees and drive that never ends. Here's what the show lines look like:

official-photo-1024x1024.webpGoli-in-action-in-the-ring.webp

I see in "looking for" posts in working dog forums all the time - "looking for Mal with lower drive". So follow the money (again) those breeder know everyone wants a Mal, they just don't want one that acts like one.
 
There are no 'guarantees' and stuff happens.
Truth. But with more information at hand, some diseases become predictable.
If the owner never does stuff with the dog then the dog is never going to done stuff.
Why I encourage titling and doing stuff with our dogs - for non-breeders it's still important to show what talents your dog has and helps breeders know what lines they want to use to enhance the possible prospects.
 
In her defense - There is no testing on this planet that could have been done on the parent dogs that could or would have predicted the ailments that affected my girls as they aged.
In a case like our first Doberman, he was hit by a car and killed so that has nothing to do with a breeding program and lineage.
Did they change the way they do things? It used to be that breeders reported the cod to dobequest and a recording secretary (can't remember the title of the person) entered it on the site.
I haven't been to Dobequest for quite a while but if I remember right, II was able to go in and enter the COD since I'm a DPCA member.

AKC also has a longevity program where you can let them know if your dog is 10 or more. I know that's not the same as reporting a COD but it does tell you if certain lines live to at least 10.
 
since I'm a DPCA member.

The lady that ran that club here (many years ago) back in the day was awesome. She had stories about one of hers that made it to 16yrs. Swore that that dog did not even start slowing down until it was about 12.

I have no doubts that everything she told me was the truth but at the same time know that that lady was extremely blessed somehow. :)

That sort of Doberman lifespan is way out of the 'normal' range.
 

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