Stassi; better and worse.

[Ddski5]

My problem with Stassi’s aggression is towards strange humans.

Is her aggression any different on leash closer to you than the situation you described 15yds away?

Does she have preliminary signs or manners as she amps up? Have you ever foreseen a situation, let it develop to about a 3/10 and then talked her down- she hackles up can you bring her down?

I don’t mean any disrespect to your knowledge or training but sounds as if she is reacting on her own instead of looking to you for direction. Similarly yes, I’ve seen Rag get so jacked up in his drive that he blew through 99 on the ECollar. He was running full bore and every time I hit the ECollar he yelped and the stim made his head turn sideways. They get that jacked up in the drive and there isn’t a way to stop them- that’s how I learned to stop it before it starts. If I even think there’s a chance, the leash goes on. By doing this gradually day in day out, I think he grew to learn that when a dog/stranger came around he looked at me knowing my next actions and it got to where instead of putting him on a leash I would walk towards him talking him down, verbally keeping him in control. But number one most important thing period…is that I had to watch the environment every single second. That’s why I did not let my family handle him in public, they just didn’t get it- Freyja is a breeze…

 

[Cferg]

Is her aggression any different on leash closer to you than the situation you described 15yds away?

If you mean she’s over threshold and reacting, no.

Does she have preliminary signs or manners as she amps up? Have you ever foreseen a situation, let it develop to about a 3/10 and then talked her down- she hackles up can you bring her down?

Yes for sure on both. Even if she isn’t on leash if I have her under obedience we’re good.

I don’t mean any disrespect to your knowledge or training but sounds as if she is reacting on her own instead of looking to you for direction. Similarly yes, I’ve seen Rag get so jacked up in his drive that he blew through 99 on the ECollar. He was running full bore and every time I hit the ECollar he yelped and the stim made his head turn sideways. They get that jacked up in the drive and there isn’t a way to stop them- that’s how I learned to stop it before it starts. If I even think there’s a chance, the leash goes on. By doing this gradually day in day out, I think he grew to learn that when a dog/stranger came around he looked at me knowing my next actions and it got to where instead of putting him on a leash I would walk towards him talking him down, verbally keeping him in control. But number one most important thing period…is that I had to watch the environment every single second. That’s why I did not let my family handle him in public, they just didn’t get it- Freyja is a breeze…

Stassi will look to me which I positively reinforced early on in training. I have no problems controlling her under obedience. I just can’t let her be free out in public. Letting her off leash requires more of my attention than just leaving her on in these situations.

To boil this all down I’m going to be honest and admit. I know who she is and who she isn’t. She’s just too on guard all the time. I feel confident on her down now. But even if I got her to emergency down while she charged someone, that’s only marginally better than letting her get to them. I mean no person out in public is cool with getting charged by a barking dog, even if the owner can stop the dog halfway to them. No one is going to tell me it’s okay as long as you can stop her, it’s fine if she acts like that. Hell no they would be grabbing little kids and running like there is a tiger loose.

I know I’m talking out of both sides of my mouth. But blondes want to brunettes….. you know the rest

 

[Ravenbird]

To boil this all down I’m going to be honest and admit. I know who she is and who she isn’t. She’s just too on guard all the time. I feel confident on her down now. But even if I got her to emergency down while she charged someone, that’s only marginally better than letting her get to them. I mean no person out in public is cool with getting charged by a barking dog, even if the owner can stop the dog halfway to them. No one is going to tell me it’s okay as long as you can stop her, it’s fine if she acts like that. Hell no they would be grabbing little kids and running like there is a tiger loose.

I get it 100%. We tell folks going to dog parks that one day their dog is going to have a run in with the "wrong dog". Same with our "in control 99% of the time" dog who gets an idea in their head to run full boar at an innocent person. The wrong person can definitely ruin your life by raising a stink, reporting your dog or lawsuits. The very worst thing is if someone shoots your dog out of self defense. Police do it, so do individuals.
I don't know how much you take Stassi out and about, but I think I, and also @Ddski5, did constant training in other environments. Purposely, actively training in different places. It's a pain in the butt, but makes a huge difference to the dog. So does training for trial, no matter what the venue. You have goals to reach and require your dog to do what it takes. One of my biggest challenges was teaching Asha to "stand for exam" in obedience. Stand the dog, walk away 6 feet, judge walks to dog and touches withers, back and hips and walks away, then I return to dog. I thought it would be impossible with this dog, she doesn't like anyone to pet her or touch her outside our home. She stands like a rock and gives the judge zero acknowledgement. She takes like torture training: "You think I'll cave? I can tough this out, I'm badass."

Our management is all on us. You know Stassi inside and out, and only you know when she can be safely off leash. Like you, I can trust mine when we are in classes or at trial without the e-collar. She just knows that she's under my control in those kinds of places. But out hiking off leash? e-collar always, because anyone we run into is ALWAYS a surprise. Unless I'm taking photos, the remote is in my hand with finger on the button at the ready.

 

[Ddski5]

I get ya buddy…there’s a lot of folks that want what you have in Stassi but yet get a Doberman that is too soft. Then there are folks that get a Stassi and want to tone/control her down. That’s a lot of work and I learned the long hard way day in/out to remotely put a dent in it.

I am, by far, not an experienced trainer. Could I have done a better job in his younger years? Sure…but like you, I learned who Rag was, what made him tick and our limitations.

Can you do it? I think you can. With all the hard work you have already put in, Stassi looks to you with confidence and trust. You just have to find the time to socially acclimate her through the various levels of environmental activity. You may not ever be fully confident of her innate reactivity but I think you can make great progress.

Good luck and thanks for sharing. Tbh, it’s actually good to know there are Dobermans like Stassi out there. As you said before, you know they are out there but I just don’t see them. Makes me feel a little bit better on how I handled ole Ragnar.

 

[Cferg]

Her "out the window desire" is a sleeve or a ball

I wish Stassi had this desire. Even in the backyard when she’s laser focused heeling if she sees a bird fly over. She would rather bark at the bird than stay focused for her ball.

 

[Cferg]

there’s a lot of folks that want what you have in Stassi but yet get a Doberman that is too soft.

I think there’s a lot of folks that think they want a dog like Stassi. She sounds appealing when I’m describing her to people. But when they meet her and actually see it in person I think it’s a lot more than what they were envisioning.

I’ve never had anyone ask or try to pet her out in public even when she’s at baseline. Meaning as calm as she is capable of.

 

[Ravenbird]

Even in the backyard when she’s laser focused heeling if she sees a bird fly over. She would rather bark at the bird than stay focused for her ball.

And that's when corrections have to be done. When Asha started improving I was rewarding for being better, which totally set me back x100 because she was getting rewarded even though it wasn't what I wanted in the long run. I wasn't telling her when she was wrong, only telling her with reward when "ah, that's better". So rewards for "ok" heeling made her think that "ok" was all I wanted. Not saying you can't reward for doing better, just move up and out of it fast, reward exactly what you want even if it's only 2 seconds worth of perfect. This dog has taught me so damn much. Asha loves to watch the ravens. If one flies over while we are heeling, she'll look up and follow it with her head/eyes. I use to think this was so observant of her and I'd always look to see what she was looking at. If I could do it all over again I'd correct that from day one if we were training. I didn't correct it for years! If they are never told what is NOT ok, letting it slide is basically saying "that's ok, see what the ravens are up to, take your time, then we'll get back to heeling". I shot myself in the foot like this in many ways. I started insisting on her paying attention to me during heeling, leash pop when her mind wanders, followed by immediate reward for returning her attention to me. She's still far from perfect, but understands that if we are training she must keep her mind on what we're doing.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Good girl, Stassi! I wish I could've seen and heard that.

Reminds me a bit of when I was camping years ago, just me and my first Doberman. He was a hobby-bred Red male. He was naturally quite defensive and was not socialized all that well. He would accept strangers in the home, or approaching me – if I took charge and instructed him to. Well, I was sitting and reading a book for a college course and Magnum detected someone walking up the bank from the nearby small river. He charged, and I saw the head of a man rising into view over the ground that blocked our view of the bank.

Sure enough, Magnum tore a hole in the guy's pant leg.

 

[Cferg]

While at work today I looked up and saw what I thought was a dog in the doorway of the shop. Soon as I saw it so did Stassi. She took off barking and charging and when it turned to run I saw that it was actually a coyote. The coyote had probably a 100ft head start. Once I actually got out of the door I just caught a glimpse of him going into my equipment storage barn. The coyote was able to lose her pretty quick amongst the 20 pieces of equipment. She gave up quickly and came back inside the shop.

It’s been 115 here the last 3-4 days and the coyote must have been pretty desperate looking for water. To come all the way into my shop.

 

[Two Dobes]

WOW! Coyotes are amazing arn't they? When I see them, they seem to float. I have never seen one running 100mph from a doberman
Good girl that she gave up the hunt and came back!

 

[Cferg]

WOW! Coyotes are amazing arn't they? When I see them, they seem to float. I have never seen one running 100mph from a doberman
Good girl that she gave up the hunt and came back!

I think she might have a chance of catching or at least keep up with one in an open field. But they are trying to evade not just run away. They will go into brushy ditches and other things to evade rather than just run straight away. But I do agree they float while running. I’ve seen my old dog look like she could keep up with a coyote running down the furrows in a field. But once the coyote hung a left or right and was running across the furrows it was like you said just floating. They have perfect foot placement and gait to keep the same speed across the rows.