Showing priorities changing?

[Ravenbird]

I just came across this post on FB. It's an interesting observation. Since I don't show conformation or breed, I can't really say how much of a thing this is, but I have noticed the overall picture at shows (same dogs getting GCH points to add silver, gold and platinum to the intitials so this makes sense. Of course my concern is on fragile health & COI's due to popular sire syndrome and this is a piece of the puzzle I never thought about. I don't know or follow the author, she had a Rottweiler on her profile, so I assume she was not referring to the Doberman or actually any breed specifically. I inserted the bold print on what I feel is the important point of this observation.

From Elain Starry:


Dog Shows: Then and Now — The Turning Point
THEN — Evaluation of Breeding Stock!
When conformation shows began — Newcastle in 1859 with 27 Setters and 23 Pointers showing for guns as prizes, then Chicago in 1874, then Westminster in 1877 — they were an evaluation of breeding stock. You brought your dog to be judged in the classes: Puppy, 12-18 Months, Novice, Bred-By-Exhibitor, American-Bred, Open. The judge's job was to look at a group of unchampioned dogs of the same breed and pick the best examples to breed on.
Once a dog finished its Championship — 15 points with two majors — you retired it, bred it, and you purchased or kept a new puppy to bring out. That cycle kept the classes full. Class entries made majors, and majors finished dogs.
NOW — The Grand Championship -- Select Points
On May 12, 2010, AKC introduced the Grand Championship program. The Delegate transcript stated the intent plainly: to provide incentives for breeders and exhibitors to continue to show their Champions and as a secondary goal to generate additional revenues for entry.
The system works like this: After Best of Breed and Best of Opposite Sex are awarded, when quality warrants, the judge may choose a Select Dog and Select Bitch from the remaining Champions. Best of Breed, Best of Opposite Sex, Select Dog and Select Bitch all earn Grand Championship points. Those points are calculated based on the number of dogs competing in the regular classes plus the dogs competing in Best of Breed competition.
That changed the economics of the whole show.
1. It is no longer about the classes. It is about Getting those Grand Champion Points, the Groups and the ranking.
Today many judges are focused on the specials — the already-finished Champions in Best of Breed — not the class dogs. For owners, the real prize is no longer Winners Dog or Winners Bitch. It is Breed, Group placement, and being the Number One dog in the breed. The magazines publish the Top 25 Grand Champions in each breed based on GCH points, and the campaign is to stay on that list.
2. Select ( Grand Champion points) gives owners a reason to never stop showing the same dog.
Before Select, if your dog was not truly special material, you stopped. Now, even an average Champion can continue to collect Grand Championship points by picking up Selects. So instead of retiring the Champion and bringing out a new puppy, owners keep the special on the road whether it is special material or not.
That new puppy is put on the back burner. You are already paying an entry fee for your special. And if you love showing, you are still able to "show"--you do not need a new puppy!
3. Class entries decline, and majors disappear.
This is the consequence you see every weekend. At many shows now you may have 2-3 class dogs and 6-8 specials. At some shows you have more specials than class dogs.
Majors are made from class entries, not specials. When everyone stays in as a special chasing Select points, there are not enough class dogs and bitches to make a 3, 4, or 5-point major. It becomes harder and harder to finish a dog.
That is not evaluation of breeding stock. True evaluation would mean looking at a broad base of young, unchampioned dogs in the classes and using many good males moderately. What the Select and Grand Championship system encourages is the opposite — one heavily advertised male shown for years collecting Select points, breeding hundreds of litters, while the next generation of class puppies waits at home.
That is the turning point: from finishing a Champion in the classes and moving on, to keeping the special going forever for Select points and recognition.
EPS

 

[BGpa]

I always try to understand the source:

 

[BGpa]

I guess its impolite to ask anyone a direct question that might be seen as criticizing "the fancy" and in doing so, interfere with anyone's chances here who is showing or breeding, especially if one has not broken into the elite club at DPCA/AKC.

So I'll make an observation: this would seem to reward "The Popular Sire" (or bitch) that continues on to GCH or Best in Breed at a big show. The semen and breeding pairings, and sales of puppies are financially rewarded, as well as the ego.

AKC makes more money, in fees, and so do the show organizers and the whole ecology that this feeds, like handlers, groomers, transporters, trainers, etc., More competition by a more narrow elite and a repeating small group, is what its become, or rather continues, including more inbreeding...

vs the old country fair livestock kind of market...thinking back to Herr Doberman, and Greunig, and others, where dogs were bred to a functional purpose.

Now comparing to the analogy by Ms.Starry... easiest ecology I can think of to compare is 4H type stuff.
Here is a random example.

4-H Livestock Auction

Our 4-H Livestock Auction provides youth a unique learning opportunity through the 4-H Market Animal Project. 4-H members participating in a market animal project learn how to raise a high quality product (beef, hog, lamb, or birds) for the consumer, as well as important business skills such ...

ccelivingstoncounty.org

Now. Is there a commercial dog market thats more agricultural, overseen by USDA, involves a lot of money....
Why, yes. There is...read "The Dog Merchants" by Kim Kavan.

The Dog Merchants: Inside the Big Business of Breeders,…

In what promises to become an Omnivore's Dilemma for do…

www.goodreads.com

I bet a sequel to that would be highly interesting, given that was published pre-covid and so much has evolved since...

Maybe the answer is for up and coming breeders to capture some of the customer preferences of "the 60% of dog buyers not able to be fulfilled by top show breeders"- thats the assertion made by the CEO of a major rescue that sources supply from those commercial breeders, to meet the demand to sell to qualified buyers of pets, not show dogs.

Dont get me wrong: no implied judgement here, just looking at dog breeding from a free market, consumer choice perspective to understand how it works, as a system, in all its variations.

 

[Sunje]

Boy, this is so true. When I started showing in conformation with basenjis in the early 90s, the focus was on Winners Dog and Bitch, and BOB. Obedience classes consisted of CD, CDX, UD, UDX--that was it. Now I don't even understand all the different classes, point levels, and the whole GCh/ Select thing is over my head. This article has a very good point too, that there are fewer class dogs to make a major now.

I was never interested in showing Brio in conformation. We did get BOB in Owner Handled when he was 18 mos, but he has not matured into a show quality dog who can finish a championship w/o putting him w/ a pro handler, and I'm not spending that kind of money. I only showed him in conformation b/c the breeder wanted me to try it. And way too much snobbery, at least in this breed, and in AKC. At first I thought that people were willing to help, and some were; but a lot just wanted the extra dog to build points. I'll stick to rally and OB--that's what I wanted to do in the first place.

 

[Ravenbird]

AKC makes more money, in fees, and so do the show organizers and the whole ecology that this feeds, like handlers, groomers, transporters, trainers, etc., More competition by a more narrow elite and a repeating small group, is what its become, or rather continues, including more inbreeding...

This is the only thing I don't think is true. The shows have been losing entries overall, I'm pretty sure. Seems like they keep adding and adding extra things to get titles for but instead of more dogs and more entries they just get the same dogs doing more things. So then they added a way to "register" non-registered dogs so they enter anything except conformation to fill the sports classes and that ticked upward for a while, but I also just read how Obedience is a dying sport....
It's kinda like horse racing, the Sport of Kings - it has become too expensive for most people, so all that's left are the ones with the means to play.

I don't have answers, just observations.

 

[Ravenbird]

Here's the Obedience numbers published in Front & Finish magazine.

I guess they added BN when they saw the entries dropping in CD, but basically looks like people get their (easier) BN then stop, just like they'd get their CD and stop. Every column is a steady decline. But did it decline because AKC added a plethora of other sports or did they add other sports because this one wasn't filling anymore? That would take a dive into the history of all the other AKC sports.

 

[BGpa]

Great info @Ravenbird
When you read breed histories of different dogs, one constant is how large disruptions (war, depression) narrowed breeds a LOT,
I bet people looking back will have a lot to say about COVID shutdown, and effects on the various economic drivers in dog breeding, showing.

One positive I notice is there is a market for doing fun things with your dog, including new dogsport thats NOT tied into an existing structure, but for fun. I see a lot of the newer generations doing fun new dogstuff, inc doing agility.
Is that a trend or just what I am noticing?

 

[Rits]

Its true. And sadly, compared to earning a CH it is much easier to earn a GCH. You have 3 opportunities to pick up points as a CH in the breed ring. One of those opportunities (Select), class dogs cannot win. Sadly, many, many judges won't even consider a class dog over a special because it is a class dog. I just heard a judge tell a friend last weekend "lovely puppy and I would have placed for BOB, if it weren't a puppy" !!! I would say a majority of judges won't put class dogs in for BOB/BOS to avoid "pissing off" the specials. While those CH get to take advantage of the major the class dogs built and get their major win when those class dogs never even stood a chance because of this sort of, unspoken rule. This is supposed to be about choosing the best dogs that best meet the breed standard. Sadly, many people also showing their pets, with NO intentions of ever breeding the dog they are showing, taking points with their dog shown by a handler away from quality class dogs in an already difficult breed ring. I don't get it. I don't personally care if a dog is a CH vs a GCH when looking at choosing a stud for my girls. Popular doesn't mean this stud has what my bitch needs.

 

[Ravenbird]

Its true. And sadly, compared to earning a CH it is much easier to earn a GCH. You have 3 opportunities to pick up points as a CH in the breed ring. One of those opportunities (Select), class dogs cannot win. Sadly, many, many judges won't even consider a class dog over a special because it is a class dog. I just heard a judge tell a friend last weekend "lovely puppy and I would have placed for BOB, if it weren't a puppy" !!! I would say a majority of judges won't put class dogs in for BOB/BOS to avoid "pissing off" the specials. While those CH get to take advantage of the major the class dogs built and get their major win when those class dogs never even stood a chance because of this sort of, unspoken rule. This is supposed to be about choosing the best dogs that best meet the breed standard. Sadly, many people also showing their pets, with NO intentions of ever breeding the dog they are showing, taking points with their dog shown by a handler away from quality class dogs in an already difficult breed ring. I don't get it. I don't personally care if a dog is a CH vs a GCH when looking at choosing a stud for my girls. Popular doesn't mean this stud has what my bitch needs.

Informative insight from your boots on the ground. I can read a lot between the lines of so many articles, but it really helps when someone who spends time and tons of effort personally seeing what goes on chimes in, and I thank you. I know that you look at a dog for your girls with eyes on improving whatever you consider their short-comings. But sooo many choose a sire for their bitch just so they can hang the tag "by GCH SuperStar XXX" but not considering if it's a really good match.

I personally hold so much weight on sport titles and I get the feeling that 90% of show breeders see nothing in it. Not necessarily bite sports but just Obedience or Agility or SW - something that show active engagement and trainability for a working dog breed. I can't wrap my head around breeders (and buyers!) not thinking this is important to know when choosing breeding stock.

 

[BGpa]

Its true. And sadly, compared to earning a CH it is much easier to earn a GCH. You have 3 opportunities to pick up points as a CH in the breed ring. One of those opportunities (Select), class dogs cannot win. Sadly, many, many judges won't even consider a class dog over a special because it is a class dog. I just heard a judge tell a friend last weekend "lovely puppy and I would have placed for BOB, if it weren't a puppy" !!! I would say a majority of judges won't put class dogs in for BOB/BOS to avoid "pissing off" the specials. While those CH get to take advantage of the major the class dogs built and get their major win when those class dogs never even stood a chance because of this sort of, unspoken rule. This is supposed to be about choosing the best dogs that best meet the breed standard. Sadly, many people also showing their pets, with NO intentions of ever breeding the dog they are showing, taking points with their dog shown by a handler away from quality class dogs in an already difficult breed ring. I don't get it. I don't personally care if a dog is a CH vs a GCH when looking at choosing a stud for my girls. Popular doesn't mean this stud has what my bitch needs.

Thanks @Rits
And can you explain for the noob here "what is a major" and how does that work for the person considering showing in confirmation for first time?

There is this, but it is confusing, with no insight into the practical reality as to how to strategize to get there:

About Titles – Cavalier Doberman Pinscher Club

www.dobermanclub.org

And @Ravenbird I guess I am naive but I thought a dog shown in a "working group" would have to demonstrate "working performance"

 

[remy]

And sadly, compared to earning a CH it is much easier to earn a GCH.

I’ve heard this many times and I’d say it’s definitely true. Just one example, a show I went to recently only had one champion bitch entered. BOB was a champion dog (the only one entered), BOS was Winners Bitch, so the champion bitch was Select by default but still got a point, despite not placing over anyone. Remy won BOBOH that day (which she was also eligible for) also. For those that don’t know, there has to be at least 2 class dogs (non-champions) present for the winner to earn a point towards their championship.

I would say a majority of judges won't put class dogs in for BOB/BOS to avoid "pissing off" the specials.

I’d agree with this too. Especially since I see many people asking which judges are “willing” to put a worthy dog up for BOB.

Informative insight from your boots on the ground. I can read a lot between the lines of so many articles, but it really helps when someone who spends time and tons of effort personally seeing what goes on chimes in, and I thank you. I know that you look at a dog for your girls with eyes on improving whatever you consider their short-comings. But sooo many choose a sire for their bitch just so they can hang the tag "by GCH SuperStar XXX" but not considering if it's a really good match.

I personally hold so much weight on sport titles and I get the feeling that 90% of show breeders see nothing in it. Not necessarily bite sports but just Obedience or Agility or SW - something that show active engagement and trainability for a working dog breed. I can't wrap my head around breeders (and buyers!) not thinking this is important to know when choosing breeding stock.

I agree. Part of me wishes instead of people showing forever to earn GCH, GCHB, etc they’d do sports with their dog(s) after earning a championship. It doesn’t make a difference to me if the dog is a CH or GCHP. It’s not like the dog’s structure improves with each conformation title.

I am seeing some more dogs showing that also have sports titles, but I’ve noticed they tend to be owner handled and usually class dogs/bitches. There are times when Remy will be the only or one of the only dogs entered with any sort of title.

 

[Rits]

And can you explain for the noob here "what is a major

To earn a CH, you must earn 15 total points through wins usually by winning Winners Dog (all 1st place class dog winners go to compete for Winners dog and the same for WB), Winners Bitch, or Best of Winners (WD vs WB). 2 of those wins must be a Major win, from two different judges.

AKC has a point schedule where they divide the country up into regions. Each region has it's own required number of class dogs and bitches that need to be entered AND shown in their class, for the win to be considered a major. A major starts at 3 points. Generally the required number of class dogs/class bitches goes up for 4 points, and again for 5 points, capping at a 5 point Major being the highest number of points you can earn.

For example: my division is...

• Division 5: Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Ohio

In Division 5, there need to be 8 class dogs and 11 class bitches shown in their class in order for "the major to hold". 8 class dogs entered but only 7 actually walk into the ring in their respective classes? Winners dog will only be worth 2 points now and "the major breaks".

However, if the major held in bitches at 11, and the Winners dog wins Best of Winners (WD vs WB) then the WD "gets the crossover" and is considered to have beaten all of the class bitches too by virtue of beating the WB, and therefore will get the same points the WB would also get for winning WB. So winning a crossover is another way to earn a Major win, even if the Major didn't hold for your dog's gender.

AKC has a certain formula based on the prior year's entries to determine what the annual point schedule will look like, and it changes every year in May. As you see, majors are much harder to come by and you are counting on everyone entered to show up, and if not, to at least communicate online that they will not be in attendance, should an emergency arise. People are driving from all over, some hours. If the dog you are showing already has 9 points and no major wins (remember, major wins start at 3 points), and the major breaks? Showing for that day/possibly 4+ days would be a waste of time as you winning, would contribute nothing towards your CH at that point since you only need your majors. You don't get any extra credit for having more points. But, unfortunately, some people are not considerate and don't let people know or as I've come across...entered in more than one show on the same weekend and then opted to go to the other show, breaking the major for everyone after we built the major together online.

Point Schedule

Learn more about Point Schedule, including how it works, rules, and how to get involved. Everything we do is for dogs.

www.akc.org

 

[BGpa]

Thanks @Rits
Jerks "breaking the major"...would really rile me, after all the hard work and $$$ invested.

I honestly don't know how you and other responsible breedrs do it.
But I thank you for the education you share for the betterment of the breed!

I guess I could say I'm free-riding learning here on the combined efforts of all the responsible ethical preservation breeders who persist at keeping it a true to original functional dog.

Or at least I will, that is; "pay my dues" if and when the time comes to find a pedigreed dog from the right breeder.

 

[Rits]

Thanks @Rits
I honestly don't know how you do it.
But I thank you for the edication you share for the betterment of the breed!

I guess I could say I'm free-riding learning here on the combined efforts of all the responsible ethical preservation breeders who persist at keeping it a true to original functional dog.

Or at least I will, that is; "pay my dues" if and when the time comes to find a pedigreed dog from the right breeder.

Showing definitely isn't cheap and is a fine balance. I'm not rich, lol. We carefully enter our dogs, sometimes only one at a time, sometimes not every day of the show. And if the major breaks and majors are all you are chasing to finish that CH? There goes a few hundred dollars! AKC certainly isn't making it any easier for the common folk to continue to afford to show breeding stock either with entries lately being upwards of $45 per entry. Add in cost of fuel and food these days, and trying to train and trial to earn titles on the back end? Thats just barely scratching the surface of costs. I love the breed though and I'm not afraid to have instant ramen for dinner at times just to afford it all.

 

[Ravenbird]

instead of people showing forever to earn GCH, GCHB, etc they’d do sports with their dog(s) after earning a championship. It doesn’t make a difference to me if the dog is a CH or GCHP. It’s not like the dog’s structure improves with each conformation title.

This is what I've been thinking all along! And so much fun to work with your dog in different venues and trials that are based more on fact (did the dog sit or did it not?) and leave opinions out of the mix. Well, mostly anyway, we know some dogs may sit pronto and perfectly and others may loose points for slowly and crooked and judges can be different on how many points they choose to take off. But in general, your dog really really earns those titles!!! It's so gratifying!

 

[Two Dobes]

And if I remember correctly; I have not shown since 2009....many breeders 'build a major' with their own dogs....who they do not show regularly?

 

[remy]

And if I remember correctly; I have not shown since 2009....many breeders 'build a major' with their own dogs....who they do not show regularly?

I haven’t noticed this in my area. However, when looking at show results elsewhere I’ve noticed one breeder tends to show a lot of dogs. Sometimes it seems like they are showing the whole litter, plus other dogs too.

 

[BGpa]

I haven’t noticed this in my area. However, when looking at show results elsewhere I’ve noticed one breeder tends to show a lot of dogs. Sometimes it seems like they are showing the whole litter, plus other dogs too.

Well that "bring your own" tactic would be one way to be sure there are enough class dogs for one or two dogs to get a Major, correct?

If you are working in a big enough regional show with a "known judge with preference for what you the breeder who have developed,"

thats tactic in combination is a smart strategy to get the key points in the "major requirement" thats a potential bottleneck for others.

How about paying for a pro handler vs owner handle? At what point does that become a practical requirement, say ...to get a major?

Or is that more for getting to GC and top 20 levels? Which I infer from Ms Starry's article quoted by Rav thats the big sea change in showdog world?

Strictly talking AKC/DPCA here...
I know UKC/UDC is Owner Handler friendly.

I keep reading (and hearing from the few show dog owners I run into in other breeds) that the pressure is on to "finish early" like at a year to 18 months.

Amiright? For some breeds, inc dobes thats basically an immature dog. You dont really know whats in the box of chocolates until 2 years in girls, 36 in males...

And another thing...Martha Hoffman's observation about hormones and effect of behavior in growth stage...

Whats happened to the overall breed behavior by the reliance on the sort of "standard general vet suggestion: spay/neuter at age 1".

All those pets not allowed to "grow into their long bones" and the calmness from social maturity, all things equal....hmmmm!