Shock collar? Need advice please.

[JanS]

My dog gets shocked while looking at his beloved goats, that he loved, watched over and played with, it flipped a switch in that dogs brain. Afterwards, he decided the goats MUST die. Unintended consequences, and I was not successful at turning that around. After 1 year of micromanaging, we rehomed the goats for their own safety. Which is why I caution how and when an ecollar is used.

Yes, and this is why the correct use of a collar is stressed. I have used the stim on an e-collar exactly twice and that was when our last male was barreling down the driveway after a big snowplow on the road and the other it was a big piece of equipment coming by. Both times he got a brief stimulation and came right back or the alternative was to get hit by tons of metal coming by.

 

[Ddski5]

A good topic to be discussed with many view points.

Have to say I am pleased with the way this has turned out.. In the past, folks tend to get angry and narrow minded and do not appreciate opinions/experiences being expressed.

All in all, I think we all agree upon that the command must be understood and the foundation of obedience should already be obtained.

Kudos.


Starting at puppy stage is understandable but for curiosity sake…how would you handle a >15month old dog that is hard, independent minded, stubborn, side eye disobedience, and has basic/intermediate obedience skills.

and you can’t say your pup would never get to that point.

Deter the use of a prong and ECollar and go back to all the training sequences that you posted in all your above posts?

-NILIF
-Leash tether
-patient progression
-solidify obedience to a T

 

[Nordika]

Deter the use of a prong and ECollar and go back to all the training sequences that you posted in all your above posts?

-NILIF
-Leash tether
-patient progression
-solidify obedience to a T

For me, yes. Definitely NILIF for bond building - the side eye tells me lack of trust, respect and that needs to be addressed first.

 

[MikeP]

I don’t have to have the last word…I am just trying to explain that the ECollar is a great tool. Yes, in the wrong hands, it is can be used too early for yesterday’s results when patience, consistency, persistence, daily training, knowledge and experience should prevail first.

The reason I included “ giving you last word” was for me to amicably bow-out of a seeming to me tiring circular argument in the sense of differing opinion that led back to square one of our differing training philosophy—hence circular — I opted to retire from whipping a dead horse IYKWIM as it is evident neither furthering opinion was not advancing position of debate and rebuttal. Please don't construe 'whipping' literally in the context of animal behaviour as something I do, would, or did do. Nevertheless I acknowledge your position of agreement in the remaining input from the content remainder of the paragraph following “Yes …..etc.etc.etc.”

Yes!!! This would be fantastic if it works…but akin the ECollar to a stronger tap on the shoulder than a whistle. A “hey buddy, stop what you are doing and listen to me”.

I readily understand that if that behaviour has never been witnessed then perhaps 'biased' disbelief will find its way to affirm “it would be fantastic if it works”. Allow me to point to gun dog retriever trials or a downfield Sch/send out where an ear piercing SINGLE BLAST of pea whistle to stop dead in tracks is hand in glove in water retriever trials — as is a handler 70 yards removed from dog with handler barking PLATZ to accomplish the 'fantastic if it works' in question disbelief. Merely backing up probability via fact, from improbability based on sense of wonder as never having experienced.

Not trying to insult your intelligence here, I am sure you are aware of this. Just stating for the lurker looking to learn.

Fully understood and might I add and needless to state I acknowledge and thrive on the back and forth of our concurrent debate — both 'listening' as equally needing be heard IYKWIM. I never interpret your posts as insulting and do listen to differing opinion with open mind.

In the common bond of Dobermans both +R and -R …..Mikel
,

 

[Nordika]

Yes!!! This would be fantastic if it works…but akin the ECollar to a stronger tap on the shoulder than a whistle. A “hey buddy, stop what you are doing and listen to me”.

As someone that uses a whistle, I'll address this. A whistle is not aversive, not a correction, it is a neutral cue, an unmistakable, unique signal that cuts through background noise and travels farther than speech. A dog learns to recognize one precise sound as "something important is happening." and it is oriented to you. An audible, high-frequency sound naturally triggers a dog's orienting reflex — it stops, turns, and looks for the source. When you train commands by whistle, the dog knows you are the source and you can bypass the drive the dog is in, be it prey drive, defense, etc. in these states the dog can often tune out voice commands, that's why they require corrections, they're not listening, they're not hearing your voice command, whereas the whistle gets the dogs attention even when the dog is engaged in drive. It's a jolt to the mind with instant recognition and eliminating the need for a correction. It's a simple training tool that fits in your pocket or around your neck, doesn't require an operating manual, batteries, or charging. If you have a hard dog, with a lot of drive, can tune out, where the prong collar and ecollar correction can escalate the drive, a simple whistle breaks that focus, doesn't cause pain, doesn't cause misdirection. Don't knock it till you try it. It's the only tool that worked for my extremely aggressive and dangerous dog.

 

[Ddski5]

I readily understand that if that behaviour has never been witnessed then perhaps 'biased' disbelief will find its way to affirm “it would be fantastic if it works”.

No biased disbelief from me that it’s possible for that behavior (running sliding stop via Platz) with some dogs…but do have disbelief that a sliding stop Platz is possible for every dog. I should have been more clear on “it would be fantastic if it works”- - worked consistently with my asshat Doberman that side eye laughed and chose not to adhere.

I did achieve this with the ECollar- not a sliding stop but Rag would pretty much stop in his tracks- vibratory stim. Based on that, was he capable of learning to do this through vocal or whistle commands? Maybe so, but he was not one that performed in order to please. He wanted to do what he wanted to do and usually needed reminding.

@Nordika
Your last post on whistle use is informative and I am sure very useful for someone who wants to use a whistle. Tbh, I am not inclined to use a searing whistle or silent whistle in a crowded area or even a remote beach/wooded area. Too loud for crowds and the silent whistle may affect other dogs or alert other animals we are in the vicinity. But great info otherwise.

I was very fortunate to have my asshat and my princess on vacation at a public beach. Both performed wonderfully.

The prong and ECollar is not needed 24/7. Through consistent/persistent training, they learn what is right from wrong and genuinely adhere to commands (Freyja moreso than Ragnar). These tools are used for my confidence, their guidance and overall insurance against a potentially bad situation. One could call Freyja down but calling Rag down was not a confident certainty.

One cool thing about the ECollar is once the handler and the dog understand the training sequence, the actual estim does not always have to be used. The vibratory stim can become the more common tap on the shoulder- unless a stronger tap is needed- again, insurance….

It is also disappointing to me that most anti ECollar folks stand firm that the ECollar is used to cause pain or every use emits a painful stim that “shocks” the dog- thus the label of “shock collar”. Simply not true.

One thing that I found very fascinating was that years ago a member used the ECollar vibration and audible beep as a positive reinforcement stim for obedience and to perform high end tricks. I forget his name but it was truly impressive.

Sorry if I am beating a dead horse but I am at a boring ass party and this is keeping me company.

 

[MikeP]

Sorry if I am beating a dead horse

Apology accepted …..….keep moving the goal posts if it helps IYKWIM

All in all, I think we all agree upon that the command must be understood and the foundation of obedience should already be obtained.

Yep…..

 

[Nordika]

Your last post on whistle use is informative and I am sure very useful for someone who wants to use a whistle. Tbh, I am not inclined to use a searing whistle

Thanks, and tbh, I'm not inclined to use a searing whistle either which is one reason I use a Logan whistle. Don't be a whistle hater. You're anti-whistle and you've not even used one.

If you want to strap an electronic device on your dogs for their entire lives, I don't care. It's your security blanket. You do you.

 

[Ddski5]

Thanks, and tbh, I'm not inclined to use a searing whistle either which is one reason I use a Logan whistle. Don't be a whistle hater. You're anti-whistle and you've not even used one.

If you want to strap an electronic device on your dogs for their entire lives, I don't care. It's your security blanket. You do you.

Ahh…there it is.

Me? a whistler hater? an anti whistler???been called a lot of things in life but certainly not that.

I think it would be really cool if I had the knowledge and ability to do that. Secret commands between me and mine. A lot of folks know the common speech commands but few actually know whistle commands. I know with Rag, I purposely trained all his commands in Cajun French so no one else could give him commands. True story…I had a beautiful yellow lab as a duck retriever and my idiotic clients would holler out commands wanting to control his movements. So now I train in all Cajun French. Another is the head nod. Wherever he was, I could nod my head up/down 1-2x and he would start growl barking.

Yeah…use of whistle commands are really cool to watch in that kind of environment. Tbh, I can sit for hours and watch those kind of videos. I just smh in amazement.

Questions:
From a distance can someone else mock the whistle sound and confuse the receiving dog?

Minus the conflicting electrical stim use…using the vibratory stim or audible beep- one could establish the same results with certain stim patterns? Kinda like a cut down Morse code? The ECollar has a distance up to 2miles- would this aid with those days that wind is blowing strongly directly at you thus reducing the effectiveness of the whistle?

Not arguing to argue…just reaching out to your experience.

 

[Nordika]

Ahh…there it is.

Me? a whistler hater? an anti whistler???been called a lot of things in life but certainly not that.

I think it would be really cool if I had the knowledge and ability to do that. Secret commands between me and mine. A lot of folks know the common speech commands but few actually know whistle commands. I know with Rag, I purposely trained all his commands in Cajun French so no one else could give him commands. True story…I had a beautiful yellow lab as a duck retriever and my idiotic clients would holler out commands wanting to control his movements. So now I train in all Cajun French. Another is the head nod. Wherever he was, I could nod my head up/down 1-2x and he would start growl barking.

Yeah…use of whistle commands are really cool to watch in that kind of environment. Tbh, I can sit for hours and watch those kind of videos. I just smh in amazement.

Questions:
From a distance can someone else mock the whistle sound and confuse the receiving dog?

Minus the conflicting electrical stim use…using the vibratory stim or audible beep- one could establish the same results with certain stim patterns? Kinda like a cut down Morse code? The ECollar has a distance up to 2miles- would this aid with those days that wind is blowing strongly directly at you thus reducing the effectiveness of the whistle?

Not arguing to argue…just reaching out to your experience.

All kidding aside and to be brief as I can as we're well into derailing this thread The brass turbo Logan Shepherds whistle I use is designed to perform through background noise, wind, rain & fog and over distances of up to 2 miles. I'm never more than a few hundred yards from my dogs at a maximum and don't intend to test the limits thereof. Logan Whistle sounds are unique to the handler due to individual variations in timbre (the quality of sound) and pitch, which helps prevent confusion from other whistles. While the whistle itself produces a clear tone, each user creates a different result when using the same instrument, making the specific "voice" easily recognizable to a trained dog, and you create your own unique language.(my dogs are trained in Russian, so i get you) The drawbacks are the difficulty of learning how to use a shepherds whistle because it sits inside your mouth and can take weeks to develop consistency before applying it to your dogs training.

You absolutely could use the e-collar vibration and tone to pair with commands, you'd have less of a repertoire, but if those can penetrate through drive on your dog, i.e. you get results (easier on a soft dog) it could work very well. Once the dog is fluent with commands by either vibration or tone, or both, you'd have the stim as backup for a correction, or emergency to get your dogs attention. This IS how I used the ecollar on my crazy high prey drive Catahoula that didn't listen to voice and was too soft for correction of prong or stim. I wasn't using a whistle beyond just a recall at that time. Once I learned how to use a shepherds whistle, my dogs gave me 100% reliability, could stop them on a dime, didn't have further need to use an ecollar, now I use an ecollar strictly for proofing younger dogs in training under distractions.

 

[BGpa]

No biased disbelief from me that it’s possible for that behavior (running sliding stop via Platz) with some dogs…but do have disbelief that a sliding stop Platz is possible for every dog. I should have been more clear on “it would be fantastic if it works”- - worked consistently with my asshat Doberman that side eye laughed and chose not to adhere.

I did achieve this with the ECollar- not a sliding stop but Rag would pretty much stop in his tracks- vibratory stim. Based on that, was he capable of learning to do this through vocal or whistle commands? Maybe so, but he was not one that performed in order to please. He wanted to do what he wanted to do and usually needed reminding.

@Nordika
Your last post on whistle use is informative and I am sure very useful for someone who wants to use a whistle. Tbh, I am not inclined to use a searing whistle or silent whistle in a crowded area or even a remote beach/wooded area. Too loud for crowds and the silent whistle may affect other dogs or alert other animals we are in the vicinity. But great info otherwise.

I was very fortunate to have my asshat and my princess on vacation at a public beach. Both performed wonderfully.

The prong and ECollar is not needed 24/7. Through consistent/persistent training, they learn what is right from wrong and genuinely adhere to commands (Freyja moreso than Ragnar). These tools are used for my confidence, their guidance and overall insurance against a potentially bad situation. One could call Freyja down but calling Rag down was not a confident certainty.

One cool thing about the ECollar is once the handler and the dog understand the training sequence, the actual estim does not always have to be used. The vibratory stim can become the more common tap on the shoulder- unless a stronger tap is needed- again, insurance….

It is also disappointing to me that most anti ECollar folks stand firm that the ECollar is used to cause pain or every use emits a painful stim that “shocks” the dog- thus the label of “shock collar”. Simply not true.

One thing that I found very fascinating was that years ago a member used the ECollar vibration and audible beep as a positive reinforcement stim for obedience and to perform high end tricks. I forget his name but it was truly impressive.

Sorry if I am beating a dead horse but I am at a boring ass party and this is keeping me company.

I use the latest Dogtra with tone, pulse(vibration), stim set low enough to sense it with the 4 shorter prong titanium adapter to spread out the contact/irritate skin less.

Mainly bot as replacement for the earlier model that failed due to saltwater intrusion. And for the longer range and higher IP water resistance rating.

To keep things as simple as possible, and take advantage of the extra feature for tone, I added the tone to my pursed lip whistle and hand over head visual for "come", enough so Bonnie recalls on any of the three: verbal, whistle, tone (useful if far away in a high noise environment).

This way my BW can use the tone in closer where her words night not carry (cuz she cant whistle as loud).

I'm also intrigued by @MikeP mention and @Nordika chosen shepherd version, and might fool with that in awhile later, as advanced training. Looks impressive and used by the folks back home on pheasant hunting high drive dogs.

The main reason to KISS was a tip I got second hand from a young woman getting trained with her big male for PPD, by a third generation dobe trainer and breeder -

Best to KISS for owners...for consistency. And the training to the Ownerr on use of ecollar is advanced and
Most important to get right.
Or you can ruin your 6 figure dog.

I also use the pulse as a tap on shoulder- its the prep command "look at me", thats followed by next hand signal/verbal command, for search (zook) nose games, a motion telling her which fork to take if I have her ranging ahead on trail, etc. or recall.

And that circles me back to
My caution to @Corky on "ask about and followthe advice of her SD Trainer, on building basics with positive rewards, and then how to use 2.25" H&S prong as the reminder.

The ecollar is only needed for off leash, which for most SD use is rare, and in play periods, off work under the vest.

 

[Nordika]

I also use the pulse as a tap on shoulder- its the prep command "look at me", thats followed by next hand signal/verbal command, for search (zook) nose games, a motion telling her which fork to take if I have her ranging ahead on trail, etc. or recall.

This is a perfect application for a dog that is in close visual/hearing range and is responsive to the pulse in a positive way. No real reason to add complexity to a toolset and method that is working. My dogs can walk 10 feet away or 300 feet away and in both cases be out of sight, hence the need for whistle training as opposed to simple hand signals when voice/visual command is limited.

 

[BGpa]

I'm not sure which you think is "often", associating stimulation with looking or having unintended consequences, or both?

Used properly, the whole idea is that when the dog begins nefarious thoughts through staring that it is interrupted by an unpleasant stimulation rather than a pull on the leash (requires constant tethering, and when unleashed the behavior often returns), or vocal interruption (not very bothersome to a hard dog and does not tell the dog that certain behavior will cause unpleasant consequences). Dogs are intelligent and generally are quick to put 2 and 2 together and just stop the unwanted behavior, if every single time it becomes unpleasant rather than self-rewarding.

There are many of us here on this forum that have used or regularly used e-collars for training and/or as a safety feature for off leash hikes and I have yet to see a thread discussing unintended consequences. I know it happens, I'm not saying it can't, I've just never seen it personally.

While we are waiting on an update for more from @Corky on her SD trainers instruction...(which I'm very interested in btw, on SD stuff...lots of debate on that elsewhere...)

and also personally REALLY appreciating the really excellent discussion here on ecollars- maybe extending the ecollar conversation on a new thread would help? Inc negative outcomes ---cautions?

I'll start: (go here)

https://doberman-chat.com/threads/e...-experience-both-good-and-bad-in-dobes.40230/