Shock collar? Need advice please.

[Corky]

Hello everyone!
I know I’m not here very often, life is pretty chaotic but in a good way.
Our girl Charlie, she’s the cutest!
She is in training to be my husbands service dog.
She just started and is 2 classes in.
Prior to that she did 3 rounds of basic training.
The problem is at home.
She intimidates and bullies and beats up on the other dogs!
She torments them!
We are at our wits end with her and the other girls are old now (11 & 12)
Charlie is almost a year old and Is 70 pounds.
I am very much considering a shock collar for when she goes after the smaller dogs.
We have tried the vibration collar and that worked for about 1/2 day then I’m pretty sure she laughed at us when we hit that button!
I am not a fan of the thought of putting a shock to the puppy I love but I’m even less of a fan of having her kill my 12 yr old 14 pound other dog!
I’ve read that many of you use them with your Dobes, I’d sure like thoughts on this from all directions!
We all really appreciate any insight and any options you all might have.
If you are in the shock collar corner, which brand or style and do we have videos on how to properly use them?
Thanks so much!
Corky

 

[Ravenbird]

It would be helpful to know a little more about what's happening in the household.

She intimidates and bullies and beats up on the other dogs!
She torments them!
We are at our wits end with her and the other girls are old now (11 & 12)
Charlie is almost a year old and Is 70 pounds.

Is this while outside playing and she escalates and plays rough or is it actually fighting? Do either of the other dogs fight back or are they trying to flee? Are they male or female? You say she torments them, which sounds like on-going bullying. On and off all day or once or twice a week? What are you currently doing when she does this? Why do you think it's not working? Are you & your husband on the same page for telling her it's not allowed or does she get away with bullying sometimes if one of you isn't home?

An e-collar can be a good tool to use in cases like this, but first you need to have a really good understanding of what & why the bad behavior is coming up and you will need to understand use of the e-collar and how to use it and you should get a high end brand like Dogtra or the Educator that has 100+ settings. Cheap collars with 5 or 10 levels can be ineffective at one level and overpowering and damaging at the next level up, so don't cut corners on this.

 

[BGpa]

on @Ravenbird caution. What does your service dog trainer say about this?
Are you and hubby BOTH getting trained, and consistent?
This is really about training YOU both, first.

Is the SD trainer adept at using prong or e-collars effectively in training?
If not, Has he/she provided referrals to other owners of big strong dogs who do, and will collaborate?

There is a trend to "positive only" in some trainer trade associations that means well but is insufficient with guardian breeds with high drive, as those trainers are only using part of the "balanced" toolbox that is acknowldeged as best practice in MWD, LEO, and IGP- on Mals, GSDs, Dobes and some others.

Some SD trainers are used to very compliant breeds, ie "the FabFour"; goldens, labs, spoos or mixes of those.

It is a given that You must have a base of positive reward based training that demonstrates the dog knows what is desired, first. If the dog willfully disobeys, then there are other techniques, like long line with prong, etc.
Only after the dog knows what is expected and declines...does the ecollar make sense.

At one year old your dobe SD candidate is in the socialization and basic obedience phase, including "leave it" that needs near bullet proof behavior before doing SD task specific training, in typical corporate program protocol. Its a little early IMHO on the ecollar, in stim. Some collars have a pulse (vibration), some have a tone, in addition to the zap which should be set so low its just enough to get his attention, break focus on the thing he is hyperfocused on instead of you (pestering the old dogs for example).

Have you tried tug toy play? He sounds like he beeds more attention and exercise from/with you...TBH. And yes, this is a commitment. Same for any SD, as well.

I'd most highly caution AGAINST jumping to a any shock collar, especially cheap shock collar off amazon, before your trainer has time to train you on stopping the rough play, first.

And its impossible for me to pretend to give more tips without seeing in person, plus- I'm not a trainer- just repeating what I've read by those who are...

You need to understand behaviors, cues, markers, rewards, timing.

Are you using food rewards?
Marker training?

There is a LOT to do
BEFORE using an ecollar or you can make things worse, create bigger problems.

For example, the dog may develop "suspicious beliefs" say; associate the stim with the other dogs, and become more than simply too playful...and fear reactive.

And generalize to fear aggression to all dogs, and disqual as a SD.

So back to the trainer...is my advice.

Having said that, if you are going to continue-you must do your homework first.
Michael Ellis has a good online class on ecollar use, via his new online training.
You can find his older stuff on Leerburg.
Review that to understand the idea then interview your next trainer if the current one cant explain and demo and train YOU BOTH on how to add this to your toolbox.

I use the Dogtra 1900x.
Not cheap but longest lasting, most rugged in all weath, best range.
Flexible without being too complicated for a new husband-wife team to learn on and be consistent, vs say a miniEducator, thats favored by pro trainers for all the options.

Good customer service, just got free warranty repair on a problem, free shipping both ways.

 

[JanS]

Firstly, it's nice to see you again!
What are the breeds of the other dogs?

I am not a fan of the thought of putting a shock to the puppy I love but I’m even less of a fan of having her kill my 12 yr old 14 pound other dog!

At nearly a year you can start her on it so she understands what you're asking. It usually only takes one or two corrections and they know you have that "remote control".

which brand or style and do we have videos on how to properly use them?

We have a couple Dogtras and a couple Garmins. I believe @Rits posted a good how to video here a few years back.

We'd love to see some photos of your girl!

 

[BGpa]

I believe @Rits posted a good how to video here a few years back.

Great tip!
@Corky if you haven't tried it, the little magnifying glass icon brings up the search parameters...here is a bunch from @Rits

Have not scrolled to find the video @JanS recalls but a good idea for use to read some of these, I think.

Search results for query: Ecollar

 

[Corky]

You all are just amazing. I love that you make me think on what and how we are managing things.
When I say she is tormenting the others (probably not the right word but said for lack of a better word) she will just stair them down, whether they are aware or not (sleeping vs awake)
I mean her gaze is locked in them! We call her (not usually affective) we will pull her in on the leash.
She is on leash and prong collar for this reason.
“Charlie LEAVE IT” in a loud and firm voice when she is in this state (think watching a cat outside the window and its hunting in the grass, fixated watching for its prey) not trying to sound dramatic but that’s exactly what she looks like without being crouched down.
If she “leaves it”, there is a treat with a fun voice attached to the reward.
That to me is the tormenting.
The bullying/dominating is the standing over them (literally physically standing over their body)
Or standing in front of them as if to be their boss.
Or when one of the others goes out to potty (doggy door access) she follows them and won’t let them come back in and the thumps them. (I’m gonna bet most of you know the “Doberman thump”, 1 or both front legs up and then come down hard with a mighty forward arm thrust——thump)
Literally, we have to open the slider so the other dog can get in and away from her, then Charlie bolts in the doggie door to thump the other some more.
We are there and on these occasions Charlie is put out for a while with the doggie door closed or she goes to her crate for a doggie time out.
This is not while everyone is playing. This is all day long.
The other dogs…
Hope is 12 yrs old and a 14 LBS chihuahua mix.
Piper is 11yrs and about 15’ish LBS and likely Pomeranian/terrier mix.
Red is between 8-11 yrs we think and is 45 LBS
Charlie is big enough that Red can walk under her.
I have not gone to the SD training yet.
They are the ones who put the prong on Charlie.
My husband said he’s asked about the behaviors and has been told repetition is key.
That’s great but we use the firm leave it and if that isn’t enough we will pull her closer but it won’t stop her from lunging at the other dog.
What I fear is she’s going to thump one of the little ones and snap their back. Then I’ve got a dead dog as they are older and I doubt they could come back from such an injury.
I’m really at my wits end and I’d sure like to get this under control.
I get that we are not doing something right. All dogs are different and we are the ones that need to adapt our skills for each dog.
What are we doing wrong? We do voice commands, we do positive rewards and we use physical pull back.
I want us to succeed at this problem with her without the shock collar. If you all have the magic answer, please share
She knows her basic commands. Drop it, leave it (just not when it comes to the other dogs) sit, down and stay is realllly hard on her but she is working on it!
Oh, the other dogs are girls!
And this little bug is our Charlie girl!

 

[BGpa]

Ok thanks, thats a lot more context, that helps. She's a cutie!

1. This is the time to get the trainer out to visit in your home to observe all the dogs,
and coach you both more including whatever they suggest "needs repetition." On Charlie.

 

[Ravenbird]

her gaze is locked in them! We call her (not usually affective) we will pull her in on the leash.
She is on leash and prong collar for this reason.
“Charlie LEAVE IT” in a loud and firm voice when she is in this state (think watching a cat outside the window and its hunting in the grass, fixated watching for its prey) not trying to sound dramatic but that’s exactly what she looks like without being crouched down.
If she “leaves it”, there is a treat with a fun voice attached to the reward.

A dog staring and fixating definitely should be broken up, so you have the right idea. If possible don't let it even start. Not for one or two seconds. Stalking is a thing with Dobermans and it's almost always play, but with another Dobe the dogs understand each others play, Without the other dog in play mode, maybe Charlie is using her staring in another way. Doesn't matter, you just have to try your hardest to stop it, preferably before it starts. If you see her just looking casually at one of the others, call her to you. Once she locks onto her stare mode, inside she is escalating. The more her drive to pounce heightens, the more she closes her brain to your command to Leave It or to Come. At a year old, you need to reinforce a reliable recall, no exceptions.

That’s great but we use the firm leave it and if that isn’t enough we will pull her closer but it won’t stop her from lunging at the other dog.

A correction has to be strong enough to make a point. If you have her on a collar and leash and pull her sharply to your knee and grab her collar, and she doesn't care and still lunges at the other dog, ripping away from you, then you have more dog than you can safely handle. Mentally or physically she has gained an upper hand and you are right in thinking that you must get it under control. I would be in favor of using an e-collar if you can invest in a good one and a solid understanding of how it works before using it on Charlie when she is in elevated drive.

Here's a very short video of Ellis - he has complete video tutorials on using the e-collar for purchase on Leerburg.

Remember:
you can teach a dog to DO ANYTHING with positive reinforcement.
you can not teach them to STOP doing anything without some kind of consequence or correction that makes it clear to them what NOT to do.

If it was something like counter-surfing it would be fairly easy, but with other dogs involved you have more variables, and you need to be way more careful in training Charlie that it is you and your commands that she is obeying and the other dogs are not responsible for her getting into trouble. I personally would opt for first training her to recall with e-collar reinforcement and high praise when returning to you, doing all the training without the other dogs present. Once she knows that when you say Charlie Here! and she runs to you, then add distance, and finally distractions. What you will be teaching is that ignoring you IS NOT an OPTION. With proper training and use of the e-collar this becomes a happy compliance, not a dreaded ordeal. DOGS LOVE TO DO THE RIGHT THING. Dogs with no clarity of right and wrong don't understand why you are getting upset. She is simply doing dog things in her mind and you haven't made it clear that some "dog things" are not tolerated by the leaders of the house hold.

Hope this helps - keep asking questions, and do the forum search on other threads about this subject. In the meantime, if you aren't already, keep Charlie separated from the others for their safety. They should not have to put up with bullying, it's totally unfair.