Ripple Effect? Dv Standard 2015

[FredC]

I know we dont have many if any FCI breeders on this list, however i dont suppose that needs to stop me from starting a discussion/debate on how this will effect AKC breeders who import FCI registered Dobermanns, or even regular puppy purchases from everyday folks from FCI governed countries. And or Vice~Versa for that matter..

Sadly i think iceman is about our only member who would have a real prospective on this concern..

 

[Gelcoater]

Forgive my ignorance,FCI?

 

[FredC]

Forgive my ignorance,FCI?

Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI)

The FCI is the only world recognized registry of pure bred dogs. There are over 80 member countries. The FCI does not register individual dogs. Instead the FCI registers one club in each country that meets the requirements of the FCI. Please see the FCI website for a list of regulations a club and country must meet to become FCI recognized.

The USA does not have an FCI member club. The USA is not an FCI member country. The AKC has a Letter of Understanding (aka Reciprocity Agreement) with the FCI that allows for dogs with AKC pedigrees to be sold overseas to FCI member clubs, and the AKC pedigrees are recognized by those FCI member clubs for conformation showing and breeding. This makes sure that AKC born and bred dogs do not have a gene pool that is isolated from the rest of the world. The Canadian Kennel Club (CKC) and the Kennel Club (UK) also have reciprocity agreements with the FCI.

The FCI recognizes the FCPR as an acceptable FCI Member Club registry for all North American born and bred dogs. Although the USA is not technically a part of Puerto Rico, the FCPR is the accepted and recognized FCI Member Club for all of North America, including the USA. Therefore dogs born in the USA, and registered with the FCPR, can be sold and shown in international countries which are FCI Member Countries with FCI Member Clubs. This ensures a good wide gene pool for FCI recognized breeds.

The AKC Foundation Stock Service is also a program which works under the FCI umbrella. While most countries will accept AKC-FSS pedigrees, some countries may not. There is not a final list of countries that will or will not accept AKC-FSS pedigrees

 

[iceman]

F

The FCI recognizes the FCPR as an acceptable FCI Member Club registry for all North American born and bred dogs. Although the USA is not technically a part of Puerto Rico, the FCPR is the accepted and recognized FCI Member Club for all of North America, including the USA. Therefore dogs born in the USA, and registered with the FCPR, can be sold and shown in international countries which are FCI Member Countries with FCI Member Clubs. This ensures a good wide gene pool for FCI recognized breeds.

Text highlighted in bold is not the case any more..

On 6.September 2013 at the IDC 2012 congress it has been decided that the breed standard is due to a change...for worst. Take a deep breath and sit down: Starting form 1.1.2015 dobermann will become and all-natural breed - no more cropping and docking! Even if you're from a county that allows it. In fact, if you're from a county that allows it you can still do it but you can't compete at FCI dog shows (which basically means you can't compete at any show). Just like many things that are considers flaws according to dobermann standard (and if present they will decrease the score), there are some things that will totally prevent a dog from being judged, called disqualifying faults (like missing testicles in males, yellow eye, missing teeth, white spots on coat)...and now cropped ears and docked tail will also be considered a disqualifying fault. There's no need to guess what will become of dobermann breed, one should only look at what happened to the countries, that once ruled the dobermann world, since they introduced docking/cropping ban. Yes, maybe looks aren't everything and people that already have a dobermann know how to appreciate a magnificent character that they have but it's hard to imaging that the new generations seeking a dog companion will settle for something that hardly resembles an image of a dobermann that they have in their mind. In our collective mind there's just room for one image of this dog and I bet it's not the variant with natural ears and tails.

source >>> http://www.dobermann-review.com/info_library/Dobermann_Standard/upciming_new_standard/index.php

 

[FredC]

My point is Tails are generally docked a day or two after the puppies are born.. Now if i want to import a puppy and reserve one the breeder would have to Dock the pup many weeks before an official evaluation can be given.. So now more then ever getting a quality C/D pup from FCI governed countries is going to be more of a crap shoot then ever... I also expect the price to increase for crops over seas as its just not the breeders burden anymore.. Its not typical that an import will arrive before 12 weeks of age in many cases. (although that may not be the case anymore since the waiting time for ears to heal wont be an issue anymore..

 

[FredC]

I assume it would be in the breeders best interest now to only except payment in full before any cosmetic procedures are done and if the pup turns out to score low in evaluations the owner is pretty much SOL..

I believe the export game is about to change dramatically.

The fact that its still legel in some countries but now considered a fault in all FCI territory is where or how it gets confusing.. Im wondering who or what breeders will still C/D and forgo the ZTP. (if thats even legal)

 

[iceman]

no decent breeder will risk docking anymore, even if they had pre paid export order..

Proper breeders breed with the hope of finding the next champ in the litter..since its not possible to evaluate a two day puppy, they wont risk destroying it's possible chances by docking it..

 

[strykerdobe]

What if they put on a Show and no one came??????

 

[FredC]

no decent breeder will risk docking anymore, even if they had pre paid export order..

Proper breeders breed with the hope of finding the next champ in the litter..since its not possible to evaluate a two day puppy, they wont risk destroying it's possible chances by docking it..

Well if thats true.. Good Bye FCI Dobermann.. Id like to take this opportunity to introduce the world to the new Euro bred American Doberman Pinschers. I believe we will be picking up those export orders in no time..

 

[iceman]

Well if thats true.. Good Bye FCI Dobermann.. Id like to take this opportunity to introduce the world to the new Euro bred American Doberman Pinschers. I believe we will be picking up those export orders in no time..

no chance!!...don't take this wrong but no one in Europe will want an American Doberman..
they rather have the non cropped/docked dog..

 

[FredC]

no chance!!...don't take this wrong but no one in Europe will want an American Doberman..
they rather have the non cropped/docked dog..

But they wouldn't be American Doberman they would be proper European Dobermann.. Frankly im already seeing a trend where Euro Breeders are making American/Canadian contacts and making loose partnerships... Betelges/ Family Dobes, Hilltophaven/Altobello, Etc.. Ive even been approached on the subject, although we never got into specifics.

 

[iceman]

But they wouldnt be American Doberman they would be proper European Dobermann.. Frankly im already seeing a trend where Euro Breeders are making American contacts and making loose partnerships... Betelges/ Family Dobes..
Hilltophaven/Altobello... Etc.. Ive even been approached on the subject.

why would they want to get involved in breeding dogs they cant show?

 

[FredC]

why would they want to get involved in breeding dogs they cant show?

Who says they cant show? They will show them here.. with the cooperation of their partners heres. No doubt things are gonna change big time im just trying to get an idea of where these changes are gonna take things.. as the title of the thread indicates their will be a significant ripple effect felt all thew way to America..

 

[iceman]

Who says they cant show? They will show them here.. with the cooperation of their partners heres. No doubt things are gonna change big time im just trying to get an idea of where these changes are gonna take things.. as the title of the thread indicates their will be a significant ripple effect felt all thew way to America..

Why would they want to show them over there? Don't forget most of these breeders make their living by breeding dogs.
If they can't show or breed dogs in Europe to sell...why would they want to show in US?

 

[Panama]

Wouldn't that be classified as American Bred Euros? American bred just means where the breeding took place... doesn't matter where they came from geographically.

 

[FredC]

Wouldn't that be classified as American Bred Euros? American bred just means where the breeding took place... doesn't matter where they came from geographically.

I suppose Yes,We could probably have an entire debate on that subject alone.. I'm just trying to keep the whole thing as laymen as possible.. Tomato Tamato, for the sake of this particular discussion.. (so far at least, Who knows where it goes..)

It would seem this discussion is one of the few of its kind.. the newly formed WDB and its members aren't doing squat and if they are its in secret and thats no better then how the dictator Hans Wiblishauser is running the DV.

 

[FredC]

Why would they want to show them over there? Don't forget most of these breeders make their living by breeding dogs.
If they can't show or breed dogs in Europe to sell...why would they want to show in US?

I'm honestly just trying to wrap my head around how this is all gonna play out.. And i really honestly believe if all FCI Dobermann breeders do stop Cropping/Docking their litters for the reasons we've already outlined, then i truly believe the export market will shift to the American Doberman Pinscher more specifically "Euro Bred European Dobermann" I believe to stay relevant world wide as they are today alliances of some type will have to be made by FCI breeders... (IMO) Possibly im over thinking this but either way i think im on to something.

 

[FredC]

Sad but i believe Hans Wiblishauser the DV's Breed Ambassador will wind up being the worst thing to have ever happened to the Dobermanns popularity since the Dobermann was first introduced as a breed.. And as of very recently i finally understand the motivation behind the move..


Germany + C/D Illegal in Germany + Disadvantage in shows + Less Overall W's + Hans Wiblishauser = German out to level the playing field and bring a W or two back home by changing the rules...

That also explains why they did not include the revised standard to include the specifics of ears and Tails.. The whole thing is in reality a scandal but i digress the point of this thread isnt to debate weather or not Hans is an Idiot..

 

[FredC]

This thread is 90% speculation on my part so no reason anyone cant join in with their own theories......

 

[iceman]

I'm honestly just trying to wrap my head around how this is all gonna play out.. And i really honestly believe if all FCI Dobermann breeders do stop Cropping/Docking their litters for the reasons we've already outlined, then i truly believe the export market will shift to the American Doberman Pinscher more specifically "Euro Bred European Dobermann" I believe to stay relevant world wide as they are today alliances of some type will have to be made by FCI breeders... (IMO) Possibly im over thinking this but either way i think im on to something.

Your plan is a no winner...there is no reason for anyone from Europe to go into trouble of importing a dog from the states just because it is "cropped euro type"

You (as a breeder) should know by now the difficulties of convincing a good European breeder to sell you a quality puppy to take back to the states..

The quality of the NA "euro" kennels breeding stock over there is low, compared to dogs over here..

After the ban is in place, all the best dogs will still be in Europe, competing (and breeding) under new law.

I strongly believe, sooner or later the ban will be in place over at your side of the pond too...