Reactive puppy

[Rits]

The behavioural specialist

Doberman breeder who’s taking a break from breeding atm, she said to euthanize him. And I value her opinion because she is very well versed with the breed, logical, and is not the person to just say that. She shared my story with another breeder, they agree. She also said finding someone for him that he needs is like a needle in a haystack.

Will take a treat but mouth and snarl at their hands

It’s just so hard. Truly a heartbreak.

It is. Know it is not your fault and it most certainly was not for a lack of trying. Sometimes it is the kindest thing to do because yes, I too would be always worrying in the back of my mind how he was being treated or if he bit someone. It's not fair to his future or the future person that will likely be harmed or worse by this dog. I don't say this lightly but with so many knowledgeable people suggesting and confirming these thoughts I have... I feel it would be irresponsible to make him someone's project. Only you love this dog so fiercely. No one else will come close enough because he means something to you. My sympathies for you for the heartbreak and hard decisions. I know your boyfriend meant well and maybe it was a freak accident. I would try to be involved in choosing your next pup, should you travel that path.

 

[Juliaa]

I'm just now catching up with this conversation and I do feel your pain. This is an awful situation which only started out with the best intentions. IF you or your trainer could find someone who wants nothing but at challenge and 100% dedicated, this dog may find a good home. I would never hold it against someone to say euthanasia is the best answer, because many times it is. You cannot change genetics, and sometimes the time and effort is too draining and the risk of re-homing is too much. There are so many good dogs needing homes, it is senseless to push for someone to work hard and still fail. I will cheer if the right home is found and I will hold you in my most sincere thoughts if you give him the final rest he needs.

Thank you for your kind words that really hit. The trainer said he would keep an ear open for qualified homes only but he’s so busy I really have a gut feeling it won’t happen and something should be done soon. My boyfriend and I feel bad for our pup thinking how he’s feeling when he acts like this, feeling on edge, it’s not fair. It’s not a quality of life to feel like that and to be limited to things and places because it has to be so carefully managed. And being crated anytime anyone’s over. It’s like he can’t fully enjoy being a dog with these issues. Instead of wanting to experience things and excited or happy to meet people, car rides, just outings in general. He has been great since coming back from training but the underlying problems still exist and he will be unpredictable. Which is the hardest. My optimistic parents “what if”, even though he tried giving my mom a good nip after already meeting her (unprovoked). And jumping on the couch and growling at her. Of course I worry if euthanasia is right or mean of us, but we feel more so he should be at peace. Instead of suffering from extreme anxiety over simple things. It’s not his fault we have spoken to our vet since I did invest time and money into this and they have agreed.

 

[Juliaa]

It is. Know it is not your fault and it most certainly was not for a lack of trying. Sometimes it is the kindest thing to do because yes, I too would be always worrying in the back of my mind how he was being treated or if he bit someone. It's not fair to his future or the future person that will likely be harmed or worse by this dog. I don't say this lightly but with so many knowledgeable people suggesting and confirming these thoughts I have... I feel it would be irresponsible to make him someone's project. Only you love this dog so fiercely. No one else will come close enough because he means something to you. My sympathies for you for the heartbreak and hard decisions. I know your boyfriend meant well and maybe it was a freak accident. I would try to be involved in choosing your next pup, should you travel that path.

I have been told it can be the most selfless and loving thing to do in these cases, as horrible as it feels to let go and never being able to see, hold him again or smother him with kisses, I know it’s out of love hardest decision I’ve ever had to make by far.

 

[JanS]

IF you or your trainer could find someone who wants nothing but at challenge and 100% dedicated, this dog may find a good home

That's exactly what happened with Blaze and @Doberman Gang . It is always possible.

 

[Doberman Gang]

I'm just now catching up with this conversation and I do feel your pain. This is an awful situation which only started out with the best intentions. IF you or your trainer could find someone who wants nothing but at challenge and 100% dedicated, this dog may find a good home. I would never hold it against someone to say euthanasia is the best answer, because many times it is. You cannot change genetics, and sometimes the time and effort is too draining and the risk of re-homing is too much. There are so many good dogs needing homes, it is senseless to push for someone to work hard and still fail. I will cheer if the right home is found and I will hold you in my most sincere thoughts if you give him the final rest he needs.

Just now reading through this myself. Sounds to me like this dog has been failed by it trainers. Unfortunately to many trainers don’t really know how to train when it comes to a dog with a string will. Has this dog ever attacked any one or its owner relentlessly, drawing blood or leaving the person needing stitches? Growling and acting aggressive is much different than actually being that way. It sounds to me like the dog scared everyone and no one has taught the dog rules. But I am just reading what is written and not seeing the dig in front of me.

 

[Juliaa]

Just now reading through this myself. Sounds to me like this dog has been failed by it trainers. Unfortunately to many trainers don’t really know how to train when it comes to a dog with a string will. Has this dog ever attacked any one or its owner relentlessly, drawing blood or leaving the person needing stitches? Growling and acting aggressive is much different than actually being that way. It sounds to me like the dog scared everyone and no one has taught the dog rules. But I am just reading what is written and not seeing the dig in front of me.

If this dog was not on a leash with familiar people he’s displayed this with, he would have broken skin for sure. Like my mom’s leg, he went to sniff her just fine and then went in for a hard nip, thankfully he only got her pants because I pulled him back. As he excessively barked I continued to correct and redirect him walking a safe distance from her. The trainers did manage to control him when they had him and said it’s all about just managing it. When the dog was just under 5 months old he had woken up from a nap and viciously snapped at my boyfriend while he was watching tv, totally unprovoked. Almost got his face. Hasn’t happened since, but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen again. Like I’ve dealt with some reactivity from previous dogs on walks, but never this abnormal behaviour from a puppy so young with no trauma or abuse. He was strange since day 1. He is very loving towards my boyfriend and I, if he’s not acting out of control with our friends and family, he just won’t make eye contact with them or acknowledge they’re there but acts unpredictable. Everyone he was cuddling and kissing / sleeping on, his first week here, he has turned into a monster the second visit. I think; how do you not remember these people from just a week or two ago when you were all over them comfortably?

 

[Juliaa]

Just now reading through this myself. Sounds to me like this dog has been failed by it trainers. Unfortunately to many trainers don’t really know how to train when it comes to a dog with a string will. Has this dog ever attacked any one or its owner relentlessly, drawing blood or leaving the person needing stitches? Growling and acting aggressive is much different than actually being that way. It sounds to me like the dog scared everyone and no one has taught the dog rules. But I am just reading what is written and not seeing the dig in front of me.

Oops I didn’t mean to press the disagree reaction by the way that was an accident

 

[Doberman Gang]

If this dog was not on a leash with familiar people he’s displayed this with, he would have broken skin for sure. Like my mom’s leg, he went to sniff her just fine and then went in for a hard nip, thankfully he only got her pants because I pulled him back. As he excessively barked I continued to correct and redirect him walking a safe distance from her. The trainers did manage to control him when they had him and said it’s all about just managing it. When the dog was just under 5 months old he had woken up from a nap and viciously snapped at my boyfriend while he was watching tv, totally unprovoked. Almost got his face. Hasn’t happened since, but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen again. Like I’ve dealt with some reactivity from previous dogs on walks, but never this abnormal behaviour from a puppy so young with no trauma or abuse. He was strange since day 1. He is very loving towards my boyfriend and I, if he’s not acting out of control with our friends and family, he just won’t make eye contact with them or acknowledge they’re there but acts unpredictable. Everyone he was cuddling and kissing / sleeping on, his first week here, he has turned into a monster the second visit. I think; how do you not remember these people from just a week or two ago when you were all over them comfortably?

It is definitely hard to give advice on these forms without having the dog in front to see the actual behavior. Just doesn’t sound like a dog that would need to be put down, just needs guidance and understanding of expectations. The fact your dog hasn’t come up the leash and attacked you when you correct and redirect him tells me he can be handled and trained. Hope you can find help to train him.

 

[Juliaa]

It is definitely hard to give advice on these forms without having the dog in front to see the actual behavior. Just doesn’t sound like a dog that would need to be put down, just needs guidance and understanding of expectations. The fact your dog hasn’t come up the leash and attacked you when you correct and redirect him tells me he can be handled and trained. Hope you can find help to train him.

Idk. We feel there’s a good chance he could/would since he does get into such a frantic blackout mode, forgets everything he could definitely turn around and bite me because he’s not thinking straight. Depending on the situation it is very difficult to redirect him and he does not recover quickly. Will whine like crazy, jump, start shaking sometimes & maybe diarrhea from being so nervous. I’m just exhausted and burnt out

 

[Ravenbird]

I had a thought @Juliaa - I'd like you to look at these videos of my dog when she was about 4 1/2 months old and see if this is similar to your guy. I know where you are coming from, the exhaustion of this behavior is real. Like you, I'd only had "normal" Dobermans before. I did choose working lines when I was looking for a puppy and I was shocked at the behavior. Mine never displayed the aggression upon waking, but public lunging and barking (explosive barking, hackles up) began at about 3 months. I thought it was impossible for such a young puppy to act so nasty. But what @Doberman Gang said: putting on the act and actually carrying through is two different things. In my dogs Star Puppy class I would literally be holding her muzzle shut with both hands and her body between my legs while she lunged and barked through my clamped fingers. The nightmare was real.

I also know that only a small percentage of humans have the will and the determination and physical and emotional makeup to deal with a puppy like this. If it's not you that's OK, it's not your fault. I was borderline a few times myself thinking I'd bit off more than I could chew.

At any rate, watch my puppy throwing tantrums and not only did she get better, she is now the absolute love of my life.

Puppy Tantrums Videos

OK, Kinda long explanation, but here goes: These videos were a couple of weeks ago, at age 4 1/2 months. There are 3 videos, all taken the same evening. Asha does this on a pretty regular basis, probably about 3 - 4 times a week. Always at the end of the day, the bigger day she's had the bigger...

doberman-chat.com

 

[JanS]

I didn’t mean to press the disagree reaction by the way that was an accident

You can just hit "remove" to the right of it.

 

[Ravenbird]

Oops I didn’t mean to press the disagree reaction by the way that was an accident

You can go back to that and over to the right you can see "remove" on any post you've left a feedback on. Once you hit "remove" you can choose again the one you meant to hit.


Oops, @Jan just said that...

 

[JanS]

watch my puppy throwing tantrums and not only did she get better, she is now the absolute love of my life.

I missed that before but it's a perfect example.

 

[Juliaa]

I had a thought @Juliaa - I'd like you to look at these videos of my dog when she was about 4 1/2 months old and see if this is similar to your guy. I know where you are coming from, the exhaustion of this behavior is real. Like you, I'd only had "normal" Dobermans before. I did choose working lines when I was looking for a puppy and I was shocked at the behavior. Mine never displayed the aggression upon waking, but public lunging and barking (explosive barking, hackles up) began at about 3 months. I thought it was impossible for such a young puppy to act so nasty. But what @Doberman Gang said: putting on the act and actually carrying through is two different things. In my dogs Star Puppy class I would literally be holding her muzzle shut with both hands and her body between my legs while she lunged and barked through my clamped fingers. The nightmare was real.

I also know that only a small percentage of humans have the will and the determination and physical and emotional makeup to deal with a puppy like this. If it's not you that's OK, it's not your fault. I was borderline a few times myself thinking I'd bit off more than I could chew.

At any rate, watch my puppy throwing tantrums and not only did she get better, she is now the absolute love of my life.

Puppy Tantrums Videos

OK, Kinda long explanation, but here goes: These videos were a couple of weeks ago, at age 4 1/2 months. There are 3 videos, all taken the same evening. Asha does this on a pretty regular basis, probably about 3 - 4 times a week. Always at the end of the day, the bigger day she's had the bigger...

doberman-chat.com

I did watch them just now, he kind of acted like that being stubborn but one time someone was over he seemed to be calming down a little bit and when they were petting him talking to us, our puppy viciously turned and tried to bit his face real good. He back away fast and he still tried to bite his arm

 

[Cferg]

If this dog was not on a leash with familiar people he’s displayed this with, he would have broken skin for sure. Like my mom’s leg, he went to sniff her just fine and then went in for a hard nip, thankfully he only got her pants because I pulled him back. As he excessively barked I continued to correct and redirect him walking a safe distance from her. The trainers did manage to control him when they had him and said it’s all about just managing it. When the dog was just under 5 months old he had woken up from a nap and viciously snapped at my boyfriend while he was watching tv, totally unprovoked. Almost got his face. Hasn’t happened since, but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen again. Like I’ve dealt with some reactivity from previous dogs on walks, but never this abnormal behaviour from a puppy so young with no trauma or abuse. He was strange since day 1. He is very loving towards my boyfriend and I, if he’s not acting out of control with our friends and family, he just won’t make eye contact with them or acknowledge they’re there but acts unpredictable. Everyone he was cuddling and kissing / sleeping on, his first week here, he has turned into a monster the second visit. I think; how do you not remember these people from just a week or two ago when you were all over them comfortably?

My dog will do the exact scenario that happened with your mom, if I let her. Does your dog kind of lower his head to sniff? Ears back and starts smelling more intensely as he gets closer? And then boom explodes barking after he went for the bite?

Also my daughter once woke my dog up when she was napping on the floor. Stassi went for her and I was right there to stop it. I let that dog know right then and there that if she ever did that again she would meet her end at my hands. I don’t blame you for not wanting to deal with any of this. This type of dog does not match the average dog owners idea of what owning a dog will be like.

Most don’t have the stomach or will to give this type of dog what it needs. Structure with clear defined expectations and consequences if they aren’t met.

 

[Juliaa]

I had a thought @Juliaa - I'd like you to look at these videos of my dog when she was about 4 1/2 months old and see if this is similar to your guy. I know where you are coming from, the exhaustion of this behavior is real. Like you, I'd only had "normal" Dobermans before. I did choose working lines when I was looking for a puppy and I was shocked at the behavior. Mine never displayed the aggression upon waking, but public lunging and barking (explosive barking, hackles up) began at about 3 months. I thought it was impossible for such a young puppy to act so nasty. But what @Doberman Gang said: putting on the act and actually carrying through is two different things. In my dogs Star Puppy class I would literally be holding her muzzle shut with both hands and her body between my legs while she lunged and barked through my clamped fingers. The nightmare was real.

I also know that only a small percentage of humans have the will and the determination and physical and emotional makeup to deal with a puppy like this. If it's not you that's OK, it's not your fault. I was borderline a few times myself thinking I'd bit off more than I could chew.

At any rate, watch my puppy throwing tantrums and not only did she get better, she is now the absolute love of my life.

Puppy Tantrums Videos

OK, Kinda long explanation, but here goes: These videos were a couple of weeks ago, at age 4 1/2 months. There are 3 videos, all taken the same evening. Asha does this on a pretty regular basis, probably about 3 - 4 times a week. Always at the end of the day, the bigger day she's had the bigger...

doberman-chat.com

What age did she get better? Yes ours would throw tantrums and mouth at us and try to eat us in the evenings, he was teething, since he’s not teething he hasn’t been doing those tantrums but still just acting off the wall in the other ways I mentioned, at 7 months old. If you could see him in person you’d be able to see he is not all there, very smart
dog, but unstable and unpredictable

 

[Ravenbird]

our puppy viciously turned and tried to bit his face real good. He back away fast and he still tried to bite his arm

So back to training and behaviors: that behavior sounds like self defense/fear biting not aggression. Not fear of the person, fear as in "this person is in my space and I don't like it". And then the training end of this incident - what were the consequences? Did he get corrected? Removed from the room? It doesn't matter at this point, I'm just curious. But what I will say is this type of puppy shouldn't be expected to socialize with other people or dogs. He should be in another room or crate when you have guests. And as @Cferg mentioned the correction should be hard & swift with a "I mean business" attitude.

Some of these dogs absolutely do not want to be touched by people. My dog as a puppy didn't like petting and never ever cuddled, even with me. She loved her ears worked with, would let me dermal her nails, but affectionate pets and rubs, she just wanted to get away. Teaching her to tolerate other people touching her (vet, for instance or judge at a trial) was not easy, but we got it done.

If you decide to keep working with him, I would teach him to muzzle as a game, have him wear a muzzle on and off all day during his regular day, never predicting when you will muzzle so it doesn't put mental pressure on him. Play with him while he's wearing it so he associates good times with it. I don't have a muzzle but I can make a video showing how to teach it as a game so they are happy to let you put it on. Once muzzled, you may feel more at ease and this in turn will make your dog more receptive of training.

And once again, I won't hold it against you at all for giving him up in any manner. You and your bf didn't have any intentions of taking on this kind of challenge.

 

[Cferg]

I can give you insight into what real life is like with a dog like mine. What having company over is like. Or my kids friends at our house. Even repair men at my house to fix something.
I'm not saying my dog is the meanest bad ass dog ever. But she’s enough of whatever label you want to put on her. My boarder is a trainer also. And was just telling me the other day, that she works with dogs all the time that have bite history’s. But the seriousness and drive is a fraction of what Stassi is. And she gives me a lot of credit on her obedience and structure for the fact that she’s never had a bite. And told me she would never be able to board her if it wasn’t for that obedience.

 

[Ravenbird]

What age did she get better? Yes ours would throw tantrums and mouth at us and try to eat us in the evenings, he was teething, since he’s not teething he hasn’t been doing those tantrums but still just acting off the wall in the other ways I mentioned, at 7 months old. If you could see him in person you’d be able to see he is not all there, very smart
dog, but unstable and unpredictable

Some things got better gradually, it was 2 steps forward, 1 step back. I went to as many training classes with other dogs as I could but it was 2020, and lots of activity was curtailed due to Covid. Still we got out and about. I didn't want to teach her to be friendly, I wanted to teach her to be neutral to any people or dogs. So I exposed her to them but wouldn't allow her to stare or hackle up or bark. If it was a group that I knew and she'd met them before I would practice walking toward them, stopping to say hi and keep walking without them looking at my dog. My rule with anyone coming into my space with my dog was "no touch, no talk, no eye contact". Some people, for whatever reason, she would growl at no matter what. By this time I had introduced a prong collar and an e-collar and she would get a leash pop or a tap on the e-collar. When she was pretty good at ignoring a new person I would give them a treat to feed to her, to help convince her that they were, indeed, ok to hang out with. This is just one thing I did of many. Absolute obedience was on-going and still is at age 4.

 

[Rits]

He also has woken up out of naps screaming like he’s being hurt, or snaps, (no one touching him or bugging him) then acts strange for about 5-10 minutes, then acts normal and playful.

Is he still doing this?

Look, I'm all for trying to say this dog is a hard dog. It probably is. I'm all for saving dogs that show they can be saved. But the details don't add up that he's "just" a hard dog. The behaviorist labeled him as nervy. The number of people that can handle a hard dog are far and few between. The number of people that can handle a hard dog and want to take on, a rescue essentially, that is also nervy? Sorry guys, I'm going to disagree on this. Not all dogs need saved. Unless Juliaa feels armed enough to take on the incredible life altering task and push through on keeping this big liability. She's an experienced doberman home. Its not like this is a complete first timer. Yes, there is a difference between working dobes and not. But if even Tito's breeder says this is odd behavior shes never seen in her dogs before. Then also an experienced behaviorist, that has experience with working breeds and dobermans, and saving dogs that are deemed aggressive from euthanasia? There are too many qualified people telling her that something is off with Tito. Its unfortunate but I think its even more unfair for Juliaa to feel that she could save him if she had just a bit more experience in handling a hard dog. Qualified people are saying that Tito isn't "just" a hard dog. I'd hate to see someone getting hurt.